Player0

Hi all,

DE season is approaching and I've invested in some good one piece racing seats and 6ft harnesses. I'm trying to do what I can to make this thing safer. I have the Redline rollbar which I'm hoping is a slightly reasonable alternative to a fully welded roll cage. What else would be a good safety purchase?

I was thinking about fire safety. A fuel cell which mounted in the stock location and didn't require heavy modifications would be nice, but it looks like that would be a custom order.

I'm also looking at fire suits but they seem like they'd be super hot especially with my lack of air conditioning. I could do a coolshirt system to go with that I guess. Are the cotton based suits safe or would I need to go neoprene for it to be worth anything.

I'll be picking up a hans this year. I haven't noticed many window nets at DE events. Is there some reason for that?

For whatever reason I'm trying to keep my 944's interior intact and streetable which is why no rollcage, etc. Any other safety tips would be much appreciated.

Player0

I'd need to get a custom fire suit made as I'm a big guy. Looking at K1RaceGear and Simpson I think. I'm not sure who makes quality suits.

I also have no idea which SFI 3.2a rating makes sense. I don't mind paying more for a good suit but I don't want anything too thick and heavy that gets in the way or makes me super hot and uncomfortable. I'll probably have a cool shirt on in the car which will also be fire rated. So maybe 3.2a/1 is the way to go since I'll have an extra layer. Or maybe 3.2a/5 is better since I'll have the coolsuit.

divil

I'm not an expert on this by any means, so this is just a random internet opintion...but there's no way I'd use a HANS device or harness without a full roll cage. It's a very thoroughly discussed topic, worth reading up on if you haven't already. But street cars have simple 3 point belts for a reason: your body needs to be able to move around in the event of the roof intruding into the cabin. If you're held to the seat firmly, you better be sure that roof can't come in in a roll over...full roll cage. But then you can't really drive it on the street without a helmet.

Personally I wouldn't even use a harness bar in a street car anyway. If you get rear ended you don't want a big assed steel bar poking you in the back through the soft seat.

I'm sure people who know more will chime in...that's just the conclusion I've come to from everything I've heard at the track, read on the internet etc.

EDIT...just to add, I track a 100% street car with no mods. I just worry about my tires, brakes, fuel lines, wiring, mood, and driving habits. I'm not at the level where me or my instructors feel the need of anything else, but if/when I do get to that point, I'll reevaluate the whole thing.

FrenchToast

Have your instructors told you that you should make the conversion to seats, harnesses, etc.?

IMO, you shouldn't even consider a fuel cell if you still have a rollbar. The Redline piece is nice but I'm not convinced it is more than a glorified harness bar.

What you can do is thoroughly inspect your current tank, especially if you have an earlier car with a steel unit. If in the future you want a custom-fit fuel cell, contact Fuel Safe as they have the drawings for it. They still will charge you the custom-build fee however, which IIRC is at least 5K or so?

IMO a fire suit should come before a fuel cell.

Do you have an extinguisher in reach from the driver?

FIA seats, harnesses, full cage, etc. are typically designed to be used alltogether, not piecemeal. Also with proper driver gear as well.

Window nets I believe are used in order to keep hands and arms inside the car in case of a panic / accident. They are generally reserved for full race situations.

All DE's will require windows down and doors unlocked.

A full suit is going to be hot, yes. Even if you did run the A/C at the track it wouldn't do much with the windows down. A personal cooling system is a good investment; either pumped water i.e. Coolshirt or ice packs - the former is more efficient but requires an in-car installation. In-car temps usually reach about 140 degrees-F or so as I recall.

It can be a real dilemma and requires you to think about your future plans for the car.

But, I return to my initial question - what do your instructors say?

wildcat077

It would be wise to install a proper fire suppression system if you have the room as the fuel rail has a tendency to crack at times and an oil leak on the hot exaust could cause major issues ...
Ask me how i know !

I think a driving suit is overkill for DE's ,but then again they are comfortable !

Cheers
Phil

Player0

I've had instructors tell me that I'm picking up speed and that a harness would be a good investment. I had to go with the custom Kirkey aluminum racing seat just because of my size. I couldn't find a stock seat that would fit my tall shoulders. So I picked up a second 1-piece cobra seat for the passenger side and a set of DOT legal 6-pt harnesses. Going to have the mechanic install em.

I know there are mixed opinions on the Redline bar and I'd never claim that it's as good as a cage in a roll over. But it's a solid piece mounted in to some solid 944 areas, and my heads right back against the thing. I think it's going to at least help in a roll over situation.

Has anyone rolled a 944 with one of these bars installed? I've seen stock 944 roll overs where the pillars remained intact. To be honest, with such a low center of gravity, I'm thinking that other types of accidents are going to be my concern, such as sliding backwards in to a wall. Or sliding forwards in to a wall. Or sideways. I don't have airbags and I'm smooshed right against the steering wheel. Being solidly mounted in to the car just seems right.

But I could just be ignorant. Roll overs are certainly the more dangerous type of accident. If the roof collapses, given my size and position in the car, whether or not I'm wearing a hans or a harness probably won't matter. I don't have much more bending room that way.

If rollover is more common than I think for a 944, and the redline ain't going to cut it, then I'll need to get a full cage.

Player0

I do have a fire extinguisher in reach. I was thinking about fire suppression. Is this something that would spray just in the cabin or under the hood as well? Maybe I should add a new fuel rail to the to do list? I will be installing 80# injectors this summer anyway. I wonder if aftermarket or just a fresh stock one is the way to go.

My future plans for the car are primarily track I guess. I bought a trailer for the thing. I'll never really sell it. But I'd still like to be able to enjoy it on the street without a helmet and without going deaf, like a nice long drive up to NH on the weekend.

However, I have three young kids and I want to do everything possible to make weekend events as safe as possible. If I have to loose street-ability to add survivability then I'll do that and add the cage. I'm certainly not doing this so I can drive more aggressively. I'm doing it so I can be safe doing what I'm already doing. But I also make mistakes.

I also need to apply heel-toe this year and I've not learned to do that 100% smoothly yet

FrenchToast

A proper fire suppression system uses a tank and lines that run into the cockpit, engine bay, and fuel area.

Sending PM.

944hal

Fire Extinguisher yes, a fire suppression system is better, nozzles in the engine bay and cockpit. Go in the engine bay and replace all your rubber fuel lines with braided SS. Most of the fires I've seen in 944's are the result of cracked fuel hoses. Also install SS brake lines if you haven't already. I'd rather use a racing seat and a 5 or 6 point harness even without a roll bar or cage. I've been tracking for 15 years and have only seen one car end up not on it's wheels. However, I've see plenty nose in, back in, or sideways hit various vertical objects. No question in a rollover a harness could be a detriment without a cage.

Player0

Thanks for the responses guys. Yeah, I have braided SS fuel lines and SS brake lines as well. I've seen too many pictures of 944s on fire.

I'll have a look at fire suppression systems too. It seems like that would make just as much sense as a fire suit.

linzman

I drove an older 911 with recaros, 6pt harness and a roll bar for years doing DE. Now I have a 968 with full cage that I club race. Can the roll bar alone without full cage be a negative? I suppose there are certain situations where it could be, but there are many more where it, in combo with the race seat and harnesses, could be a great safety benefit. I felt better with the roll bar than without it. Is a cage better,, no question.
As far as the seat goes, I managed to put a halo seat on sliders in my car, and I'm 6'8" and not slim. It can be done, but you've got the Kirkey now. Make sure it's installed properly, with the required bracing, etc.
As far as a fuel cell, in a 944, that's a big job, not easy to get to tank. and IMHO should not be at the top of your list, a full fire suppression system with cabin, fuel, and engine nozzles is much easier, and reversible.
A cool suit and a fire suit are nice, there will soon be a nice fireproof long sleeve cooling shirt available from a fellow rennlister. It is really nice. You can build your own cooler if you're handy for much less than the name brand ones. Do a search. I built one using the exact same parts as the FAST system for around $100.
Again, I'm a big guy, and I was able to buy a suit off the rack. You can often get a great deal on a last years model higher end suit. the bigger sizes don't sell out as fast . The cheaper suits also tend to be the hottest.

Sent from my iPhone using IB AutoGroup

Player0

FrenchToast put me in the know about Safety Devices bolt in cages. So I've decided to order one of those. A little stiffening never hurt anyone and I won't need to completely gut the 944 to install this thing, ie, remove carpet for welding.

Yeah, fuel cell sounds like something for the future. I'll also pick up a dual layer SP 3.2a/5 suit, though I still don't know which brand, and a Coolshirt system. Yeah, I'm most likely going to build my own cooler to save a few bucks as it looks super easy and I know my way around mcmaster-carr.

I'll pick up an SHR flex hans device once they're available and put a better fuel rail on there. I'll try to find some fire suppression system. That should get me ready for the glen. Oh, I better make sure my gloves are fire rated.

Anything else 'while im in there'? lol

Otto Mechanic

If you're looking for a really good fire suit that's lightweight, comfortable and cheap, get on eBay and look for used or surplus nomex flight suits. I use my old NASA suit, works great. You can find them on eBay for about $60 in good condition. XL sizes are hard to find so you may have to watch for a few weeks. If you're thinking of a coolshirt anyway, you can pick up nomex underwear too.

f1rocks

2005 Brainerd International Raceway, a very fast track. One of our hit shies was running what would be a record time for a then F now E car during a DE weekend. We used to do a timed runs at the end of the weekend.

Driver lost it in a very fast section and flipped the car end over end a couple times, drivers helmet was 75 feet from the car when the safety crew arrived.

Driver was uninjured spent night at hospital for observation but released.

Car had just a roll bar.

I will not track a car without a Hans, I've not read anything where just a roll bar would make them less effective. If so, there are a lot of formula and open cars that would be suceptible.....

How big are you? I'm big but have a couple older suits you may be interested in.