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944 - VW Swap
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Greetings Gents
I wanted to share my project with the group here. Some of you may have seen it over on the bird but for those who haven’t, here it is. I’m working on an early 944 that my brother gifted to me after abandoning as his own project. It has been apart for a decade… was either this or scrap. The long story short is he bought it from the wrecker in Connecticut who stated it needed a head gasket. When it showed up, it was obvious the engine was toast with cracks in jugs, smashed pistons and foreign object damage to the head. He picked up a parts car and engine and then quit so it sat for ~9yrs. I’m not a fan of the stock 944 engines so that wasn’t an option. We tooled around with the LS swap idea but ultimately decided to go with something we’re more familiar with and in the blood lines of the 944. We’re going to adapt a VW/Audi engine. More specifically, the AEB 20v from B5 Passat/Audi A4 lineage is what we’re using. I truly wanted to drop one in with limited fiddling but I couldn’t help myself when I found a lip on the jugs… so we built it out. Enough words, here’s the pictures through present day: Commence picture waterfall timeline... starting in October 2013. Attachment 1203965 Attachment 1203966 Attachment 1203967 Attachment 1203968 Attachment 1203969 Attachment 1203970 Attachment 1203971 Attachment 1203972 Attachment 1203973 Attachment 1203974 http://www.motorgeek.com/download/file.php?id=36940&t=1 https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6e17c208.jpg Attachment 1203975 Attachment 1203976 Attachment 1203977 Attachment 1203978 Attachment 1203979 Attachment 1203980 https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...ps261ecb51.jpg Attachment 1203981 Attachment 1203982 Block giving lip...was originally hoping to clean things up and drop in without any engine build. Little loose is okay but this was out pretty far. Attachment 1203984 VTGTI transmission donation: Attachment 1203985 Attachment 1203986 Attachment 1203987 Attachment 1203992 Attachment 1203994 Attachment 1203995 Attachment 1203996 Attachment 1203997 Attachment 1203998 Attachment 1203999 Attachment 1204000 Attachment 1204001 Attachment 1204002 G60 & 944 bell housings: Attachment 1204003 I'm a hack. Attachment 1204004 Attachment 1204005 Attachment 1204006 Attachment 1204007 Attachment 1204008 Attachment 1204009 Attachment 1204010 There are alignment dowels that make the 944 look taller... they're actually only 1/4" difference. Attachment 1204011 Attachment 1204012 Attachment 1204013 |
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Attachment 1203880
Attachment 1203881 Attachment 1203882 Attachment 1203883 Attachment 1203884 Attachment 1203885 https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...ps58602984.jpg Head work completed: -Clean and prep -Deck .007 -New OEM guides; hand bored to fit -Intake valve blast and grind -Grind all seats -Hand lap all valves/new Supertech stainless exhaust valves installed -Install valves/springs / new CatCams Gold heavy duty springs installed -Install viton stem seals Attachment 1203886 Attachment 1203887 Attachment 1203888 https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0e783239.jpg Attachment 1203889 Attachment 1203890 Transport Attachment 1203891 Attachment 1203892 Attachment 1203893 Attachment 1203894 Attachment 1203895 Attachment 1203896 Attachment 1203897 Tore the stock fuel system out and drained the pickled gas: Attachment 1203898 http://www.chrisachilles.com/crap/bi...atchingyou.jpg https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...psa25e985b.jpg Attachment 1203899 https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...pse301056b.jpg Attachment 1203900 https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...ps90833e6a.jpg Attachment 1203901 Attachment 1203902 Attachment 1203903 Attachment 1203904 Attachment 1203905 Attachment 1203906 Attachment 1203907 Attachment 1203908 Attachment 1203909 Attachment 1203910 |
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Attachment 1203857 Attachment 1203858 Attachment 1203859 Attachment 1203860 Attachment 1203861 Attachment 1203862 Attachment 1203863 Attachment 1203864 Attachment 1203865 Attachment 1203866 Attachment 1203867 Attachment 1203868 Attachment 1203869 https://i458.photobucket.com/albums/...psb0afa260.jpg Attachment 1203870 Attachment 1203871 Attachment 1203872 Attachment 1203873 Attachment 1203874 Attachment 1203875 Attachment 1203876 Attachment 1203877 Attachment 1203878 Attachment 1203879 Oil filter housing needs to change to ABA otherwise it's stuffed into the firewall. Intake manifold needs to be trimmed to a taper plenum to clear brake booster. Waterneck on the back of the head will need a solution... either a super tight elbow or cap and relocate. Decided at this point to switch to a different bell housing moving the starter to the engine side of the clutch. Have a ME friend who is going to help with scanning/forging our own design. We’re getting ready to start working again as the car sat all summer; the best time to build is during the winter when cabin fever sets in. Thanks for reading – more to come over the winter. |
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Forgot to post what went into the head -
High rev: Cat gold springs Attachment 1203854 Supertech exhaust valves Attachment 1203855 |
incredible illustrations. nice dog !!
best wishes. |
Holy Poop.... :eek::eek::eek::eek:
Good work man! Can't wait to see where she ends up! :thumbup: Cheers! Ethan |
*slow claps*
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nice work.
i debated you about doing this but the more i thought about it, the more i liked it. that head is a cool design...and that engine is tiny! you could fit two more dogs under the hood. |
Kudos for going outside the box. Very nice build/project! I always wanted to see a vr6 944 - I may end up doing one with my brother who is a VW guy.
And yeah, that engine is tiny! You could call it a mid-front engined car now, as most of the engine is behind the front axle. |
Originally Posted by odurandina
(Post 11803969)
nice doge !!
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how much more displacement can one get from that engine?
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You can put a TDI block/crank under the head to go up to 159mm rod. That bumps you to 2.2L with some custom work. Not sure on the largest displacement out there but on turbo application the rate of return is diminishing.
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Let me know how the bellhousing stuff goes, I still need to figure out which direction I'm going to go for my 07K swap.
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Will do - if we can get a solid design then we'll pump them out domestically to help other people.
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I'd probably be interested in one of those 1.8/2.5 BH thingies too.
There is a Quicktime steel BH available but it is pricey. An alternative I've been thinking about is the Ford Duratec 2.3/2.5 I-4s, they are about the same dimensions as the 1.8 VW but have longer strokes. |
Exciting build - keep up the good work!
Cheers, Mike |
A late model VW motor into an old Porsche? If you do that, you won't have to worry about your #2 rod bearing going south and possibly kicking a rod through the block, other weird oil pressure gremlins, haunted DMEs, unexplainable overheating issues...you'll just be bored...
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I'm also in for a bellhousing. Maybe 2!
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Any updates?
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A recent trip to the boneyard and reading through his thread on Pelican have made me ponder the possibility of putting a 1.8T automatic driveline into a 944 with the trans at the back of course :)
Would be a sweet cruiser. |
I'm also curious how the project is going!
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news?
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Wife's birthday today and headed on vacation next week. Look for a good update in February. :)
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Bump :)
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Originally Posted by tempest411
(Post 11819551)
unexplainable overheating issues...you'll just be bored...
I hope the OP engine has the old thermostat. New VW engines have thermostats that are not thermostats, but electronic valve that is controlled by 3 dimensional map. This, when something is wrong is definition of unexplainable cooling system. It is called Electronically mapped cooling system and gets info from: 1: vehicle speed 2: engine load 3: engine speed 4: water temperature 5: cabin heating control status 6: throttle position 7: ? http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_222.pdf http://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/c12...rmostat_en.pdf One of the most stupid solutions on this planet. |
Good grief! The cooling system on European cars have always been needlessly complicated. The thermostat system on a stock 944 is bad enough....I assume everyone with a heartbeat is familiar with the cooling system on small-block Chevrolets...the old ones, not those LS1 thingies so many are bastardizing 944s with. Every cooling system should be iust like those. A bear minimum of hoses and connections, easily servicable, and perfectly functional.
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If you want a basic cooling system, buy an air-cooled. :D
I don't mind any system with a radiator, thermostat, and fan thermoswitch. But throw a controller or computer in there, and I'm NOPE. It probably reduces emissions by 1ppm, increases revenue due to frequent service & parts, and makes repairs require even more special knowledge so they have to come back to the dealers. Good business move. |
Originally Posted by tempest411
(Post 12103621)
Good grief! The cooling system on European cars have always been needlessly complicated. The thermostat system on a stock 944 is bad enough....I assume everyone with a heartbeat is familiar with the cooling system on small-block Chevrolets...the old ones, not those LS1 thingies so many are bastardizing 944s with. Every cooling system should be iust like those. A bear minimum of hoses and connections, easily servicable, and perfectly functional.
99% of cases where people suspect a thermostat is due to using **** parts or neglecting maintenance. The 944 thermostat is like any other thermostat and does its job well. I threw mine in with the waterpump in 2012 and on 100*+ days, going uphills with AC on the water temperature still barely gets above the middle line. And in the snowy mountains in the wintertime I get heat in the cabin within a mile of driving when it's 30s F outside. As for the 944 system...what's so complex about it? Fill the water tank, water goes into the radiator, into the engine, back to the radiator. If it gets too hot a small hose routes water back to the tank to expand. Heater either lets water circulate to the dash or it doesn't, then routes back to the pump to recirculate and warm up you and the engine faster by (a rather ingenious solution IMO) running the return pipe over the exhaust manifold. |
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Appreciate the interest - keeps me motivated to keep pushing forward.
These engines have an old fashioned thermostat. If they didn't then you could always put an inline thermostat on like a Landrover Discovery 2 or E30 M3. Update - chopped up a couple things: 1) B5 Audi A4 Transmission. Bell housing/starter flange scans. 2) 944 Transmission. Torque tube face scan. Parts came back from blasting today and are heading out to the 3D scan shop shortly. Progress was at a standstill during the coldest months of the winter but picking back up again now... it was nearly 50F here today. Attachment 1203472 Attachment 1203473 Attachment 1203474 http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...psmsfzqb40.jpg Attachment 1203475 Attachment 1203476 Attachment 1203477 Attachment 1203478 Attachment 1203479 Attachment 1203480 Attachment 1203481 Attachment 1203482 Attachment 1203483 Attachment 1203484 Attachment 1203485 Attachment 1203486 Attachment 1203487 Attachment 1203488 |
Nice!
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Oh my gosh! That's some serious fabricating you have going on there. Will you make the information regarding the modification done to the various components available to others? If your project works well enough, perhaps you can work with a company like Renegade Hybrids to market a conversion kit.
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Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944
(Post 12109405)
How is the 944 thermostat a bad design?
99% of cases where people suspect a thermostat is due to using **** parts or neglecting maintenance. The 944 thermostat is like any other thermostat and does its job well. I threw mine in with the waterpump in 2012 and on 100*+ days, going uphills with AC on the water temperature still barely gets above the middle line. And in the snowy mountains in the wintertime I get heat in the cabin within a mile of driving when it's 30s F outside. As for the 944 system...what's so complex about it? Fill the water tank, water goes into the radiator, into the engine, back to the radiator. If it gets too hot a small hose routes water back to the tank to expand. Heater either lets water circulate to the dash or it doesn't, then routes back to the pump to recirculate and warm up you and the engine faster by (a rather ingenious solution IMO) running the return pipe over the exhaust manifold. |
OK, so basically you don't like the expensive water pump. But your way isn't really simpler. I too wish the WP was cheaper but oh well.
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Originally Posted by tempest411
(Post 12112136)
Oh my gosh! That's some serious fabricating you have going on there. Will you make the information regarding the modification done to the various components available to others? If your project works well enough, perhaps you can work with a company like Renegade Hybrids to market a conversion kit.
A couple reasons for this: 1) The center hole for the Audi bell housing has to be knocked out for the Porsche flange due to interfering depths/thicknesses. While we could weld against what we have cut down, exact precision and repeatability could not be achieved with a quick hack. This ensures we don't encounter slight misalignment that may result in part failure such as a slightly misaligned pilot bearing or clutch engagement against the pressure plate/flywheel. 2) There is quite a bit of clean-up due to excess, unused material on the Audi housing that takes up real estate. 3) We may consider reorientation of the starter and clutch slave cylinder. 4) Some parts may convert to 944 type to save on new parts with the swap. Quite fun to this point but I really want to drive it this year. |
Remind me - the BH will be a cast/fabricated 944 torque tube bolt-up unit, with a flange/depth designed to accommodate the VW engine/clutch package? Will it work on just the 1.8 or engines like the 2.5 I5 as well?
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The 2.5 I5's share similar bell housing as the Audi/VW 4cyls is my understanding. There appears to be plenty of room for another cylinder out front that's for sure. :)
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Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944
(Post 12112623)
Remind me - the BH will be a cast/fabricated 944 torque tube bolt-up unit, with a flange/depth designed to accommodate the VW engine/clutch package? Will it work on just the 1.8 or engines like the 2.5 I5 as well?
The guy at 9Products made a prototype 944 bellhousing for an AAN already. Haven't seen updates in a long time though. http://www.9products.com/blog http://www.9products.com/sites/defau...s/IMG_0226.JPG |
Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12113223)
The 07K (new 2.5) requires trimming/shaving of the top two bolts on a standard 01E/01A bellhousing. And it requires some work to fit the starter. But the previous I5's (10v and 20v) along with V6/Most V8's/I4's will work with this bellhousing (VR6 will with an adapter).
The guy at 9Products made a prototype 944 bellhousing for an AAN already. Haven't seen updates in a long time though. http://www.9products.com/blog I much prefer your choice, the 07K as there are zillions for pennies. How different is the AAN/07K BH pattern>? |
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Here's the starter cutout differences. You have to modify the rear timing cover:
Attachment 1203471 And the solution: http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...cfde95d3ce.jpg https://scontent-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hp...a1&oe=557AC617 And the top bellhousing trimming that needs done: https://scontent-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hp...99933074_o.jpg |
I don't want to go too far on a tangent for a different engine but this appears to be the chain cover for the newer 5cyl (07K109211E) modified, not the bell housing.
Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12113257)
Here's the starter cutout differences. You have to modify the bellhousing and not the rear timing cover:
https://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e...psj6z1pe2u.jpg And the solution: http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...cfde95d3ce.jpg https://scontent-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hp...a1&oe=557AC617 |
Doh, yes I had it backwards, you're correct. The answer both Spencer and I are interested in is yes this bellhousing you're working on could easily be modified to use with an 07K.
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;)
How do you like your VEMS? I have one on the shelf for this and I'm really looking forward to hooking it up. |
Originally Posted by Lapkritis
(Post 12113381)
;)
How do you like your VEMS? I have one on the shelf for this and I'm really looking forward to hooking it up. |
I've noticed that - helps that they have a plug and play solution for the earlier 5cyls. Makes it too easy!
http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/ I'll be building the harness for this by hand... done a few hand built harnesses on megasquirt so old hat for me now. |
Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12113365)
Doh, yes I had it backwards, you're correct. The answer both Spencer and I are interested in is yes this bellhousing you're working on could easily be modified to use with an 07K.
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Parts shipped to scan/inspection today. Expect an update no sooner than roughly weeks.
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Roughly weeks! I can't wait that long!
J/k, I won't actually need them until later this year so I can wait. |
:)
Sorry, meant to say 2 weeks. Not that the part will be done by then but that we should know more about the rendering/solidworks modeling efforts around then. The prototype lead time is probably best measured in months still realistically. |
Update: Original scan shop quote ballooned after part delivery by nearly 10 fold. No room in my hobby budget for that kind of increase so parts are on the way back to me.
Plan b is only a few weeks longer and has controlled cost quotes that are far more predictable. Let's hope there isn't a need for a plan c. :) |
life in VAG moment #78669
Originally Posted by odurandina
(Post 12123924)
good bet at least a good bit is just hot vapors being fed into your combustion chamber via the air oil separator.
or take an almost new Golf/GTI/Passat crud to your next DE. you'd very likely see a similar situation there. just keep topping off. my guess is you've got a good ways more to go before the little bastard blows up. well.... wouldn't you know I rented a Jetta in Phoenix and been driving it normal in LA basin traffic about a week now..... haven't exceeded the speed limit or anything. quite the contrary. checked the oil at the Airport. it was fine. got about 700 miles on her now.... well, she needed almost a quart this morning. if you do this on your own VW or Audi, you void the warranty. :icon501: Gentlemen: the car only has 36 k miles. :icon501: life in VAG: check oil often. |
Originally Posted by odurandina
(Post 12156359)
life in VAG moment #78669
well.... wouldn't you know I rented a Jetta in Phoenix and been driving it normal in LA basin traffic about a week now..... haven't exceeded the speed limit or anything. quite the contrary. checked the oil at the Airport. it was fine. got about 700 miles on her now.... well, she needed almost a quart this morning. if you do this on your own VW or Audi, you void the warranty. :icon501: Gentlemen: the car only has 36 k miles. :icon501: life in VAG: check oil often. |
of course.
but I love this car and i'm quite happy I got it. I don't do mud season in New England (its worse than winter)... so, you see, I'm keeping it until they drag it from my cold dead hands (as in 3 weeks to a month). and since it's a VW, you're talking about a car having a very good chance it consumes oil. this one I figure consumes a quart about every 800~1000 miles. no smoke out the back... it's prolly not passing the rings, but, through the air/oil canister w/ the excess being fed into the combustion chamber. this is a great car. but it's a ringer for what people post on the Audi and VW forums..... (where they're told to cruise over to the dealer to have their oil topped off). :) |
Originally Posted by odurandina
(Post 12156592)
of course.
but I love this car and i'm quite happy I got it. I don't do mud season in New England (its worse than winter)... so, you see, I'm keeping it until they drag it from my cold dead hands (as in 3 weeks to a month). and since it's a VW, you're talking about a car having a very good chance it consumes oil. this one I figure consumes a quart about every 800~1000 miles. no smoke out the back... it's prolly not passing the rings, but, through the air/oil canister w/ the excess being fed into the combustion chamber. this is a great car. but it's a ringer for what people post on the Audi and VW forums..... (where they're told to cruise over to the dealer to have their oil topped off). :) |
Been driving VW for about 20yrs. All different engines... various stages of modification. None consumed enough oil to require a quart inside 3500 miles following break-in.
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got this with 36k on the clock.
I assume it will be retired from their fleet soon. |
Originally Posted by odurandina
(Post 12156359)
life in VAG moment #78669
life in VAG: check oil often. |
What does a new VAG engine in a rental car have to do with this thread about a 20yo VW engine?
Should we say that you should check your oil in a 944 because of 996 IMS problems? Please take your useless ramblings back to Off Topic odurandina... |
I suspect it's relevant due to the subject if the thread (putting a VW engine in a 944). I've observed VWs losing oil spontenously as well. Moral of the story: the desire to swap out the original engine in a 944 may be a case of the grass being greener on the other side. You'll be swapping one set of idiosynchrosies for another along with the engine.
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I've never heard of an oil burning vw as a widespread problem in the 80's or even 90's. Lack of familiarity with the engines I bet. It had always been a Honda Civic joke. "Fill the oil, check the gas."
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So slight change in plans. I have a good friend who has worked in the capital region for Tesla for a number of years. I've wanted a model S since they came out - they're just solid cars even with an inside perspective. Well, a customer of his wrecked their Model S in February during the storms and the insurance totaled it out as a light roll over. So the drive-train is good and my friend is confident we could just graft the 944 shell over the Tesla pan/drivetrain. The insurance buyback for the owner was low and my buddy picked it up after we talked it over. I have to pay him in installments over the next year but we can get started next month when the car comes north to my garage. I'm pretty excited - should be a great project and I won't have to deal with gas or oil burning engines ever again. Pics soon!
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holy ****...
i just got an impromptu ride in a P85D on monday, that thing hauls. it will be violent in a car weighing less like a 944. |
That will be incredible. The Tesla roller-skate architecture should be great for doing body conversions. What are you going to do about the wheelbase, though? The Tesla is a couple FEET longer.
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The level of integration in that car really makes me wonder if it will handle being cut down like that. Interested to see this, but i'm sad that this means no bellhousing will get made for a vw conversions.
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Originally Posted by Arominus
(Post 12169645)
but i'm sad that this means no bellhousing will get made for a vw conversions.
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bwhahaha ! epic :D
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:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
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I was going to say...there's enough wrong with the world already without someone on a Porsche forum considering an electric car...Electric cars are for girls, and not the kind I would date either.
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Electric cars like the 918, P1, or LaFerrari.... that kinda girl freakin' ROX :-)
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You got me! I forgot to stay off the internet yesterday.
924/944's are actually really popular with the EV crowd, I've seen several conversions in person. |
we've had several electric 944 threads.
perfect project for the galacticly stupid. |
Dude,
Whazup with the pelican thread? Whatever the case, I hope you keep this one updated. That's a nice project you are working on. KC |
Better community here is as cleanly as I can explain. ;)
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Originally Posted by Lapkritis
(Post 12168904)
So slight change in plans. I have a good friend who has worked in the capital region for Tesla for a number of years. .... So the drive-train is good and my friend is confident we could just graft the 944 shell over the Tesla pan/drivetrain.
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Very interesting following.....BTW Great April Fools joke!
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2 Attachment(s)
Not much to update unfortunately... parts are back from scan house and I've played around with some mickey mouse 3d scanning tools. We have the mesh but progress is slow. I did pick up a 924 turbo bell housing to compare dimensions when the time comes.
Attachment 1203329 Attachment 1203330 |
Any news on your bellhousing production? I am starting an ABA/16vT swap. The bellhousing is the first key. I do have a sacrificial o2a to use if needed, just wanted to check in here first.
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Hey there - wish I had more to share on the project but it's slow going. Don't bother chopping the 02A; the starter goes right into the gas pedal. I'd rather ship the one I learned on to you (bolted to the engine still) instead of killing another 02A. I would recommend finding a B5 Audi or Passat FWD/Quattro 5spd to give up parts instead. This moves the starter under the turbo on the engine side which is well out of the way.
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For the starter, I was thinking of relocating the starter hole lower on the bellhousing. Easier said than done, sure, but it would be fun / interesting to try.
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skip the starter, just put a hole through the front of the car for a Model-T hand-crank
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Psh, that's for peasants. I could just park it on a hill.
A while back, I seriously looked into belt-drive starter motors. GM has one, and it actually acts as a hybrid electric motor/generator as well as a starter. If it becomes too hard to relocate the starter lower, I might give that a try. |
you could mount the starter ring at the transmission end :p
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Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944
(Post 12401840)
you could mount the starter ring at the transmission end :p
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Originally Posted by mikey_audiogeek
(Post 12403392)
Any reason why not? Could you fit a flexplate in there?
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Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12410578)
You'd have to start it in neutral with the clutch engaged every time. I'm not sure you can fit a large enough toothed wheel on the trans side housing to get enough torque. At that point you're basically building another bellhousing, so you might as well do it right and do it at the motor.
my concern is, is there enough space in the back of a 944 for a starter to mount (to the torque tube alu. flange) where it would go on the audi? |
Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944
(Post 12410651)
well the audi5000 used that trans case with a FW/starter ring in there...thinking about the automatic 944s they used a flexplate sort of thing to bolt to the torque converter at the back, you could probably fit an audi5000 flex plate to the 944 drive shaft coupler and use a hi-torque starter...
my concern is, is there enough space in the back of a 944 for a starter to mount (to the torque tube alu. flange) where it would go on the audi? Do you have any pictures of the auto flexplate? What I would worry about is the mass of a flexplate on the torque tube or on the shaft of a manual trans that wasn't designed for that load. It would need to be very well balanced. |
heres the auto 944 thing (#10)...has 3 bolt holes to attach to the torque converter.
it just clamps onto the driveshaft like the manual car coupler. if you fit a starter ring gear on there somehow, i would think it could handle the start-up torque. youd always have to have the trans in neutral like you said though. http://www.944online.com/images/diag...bdediagram.gif |
All this talk is making me want to drop my other hobbies and learn CAD, then get a proper bellhousing CNC'd!
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Originally Posted by FRporscheman
(Post 12412204)
All this talk is making me want to drop my other hobbies and learn CAD, then get a proper bellhousing CNC'd!
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children...
why not just buy a B5 passat/audi longitudinal transmission case and machine it down to what you need? it's already pointing the right way :p i measured one at the bone yard once, it'd be super cool to fit the 1.8 motor up front and then the passat trans in the back of the 944 using the 944 tube...esp. the 5-speed autobox. dimensions are almost identical. |
Why a B5 transmission case? One would need the bellhousing from the transmission which mates with the engine they want, and then modify it to mate to the torque tube, while also having the starter and slave cylinders fit / work. In my own case, an 02A for a vr6, then maybe someday a 5-cyl like alex if the vr6 works.
I already have the vr6, 02A, 944 bellhousings, etc. I could tig weld a one-off bellhousing but it would be way better to have reproducibility (CNC). Also, it would work for a variety of VW engines put into a 944. |
Are you using the 12 or 24 valve VR6 engine? I considered one of these prior to doing the rebuild on my 2.5 engine..I understand that a 12 valve with a blower is a hot ticket..
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Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944
(Post 12412303)
children...
why not just buy a B5 passat/audi longitudinal transmission case and machine it down to what you need? it's already pointing the right way :p i measured one at the bone yard once, it'd be super cool to fit the 1.8 motor up front and then the passat trans in the back of the 944 using the 944 tube...esp. the 5-speed autobox. dimensions are almost identical. |
Originally Posted by Tiger03447
(Post 12413105)
Are you using the 12 or 24 valve VR6 engine? I considered one of these prior to doing the rebuild on my 2.5 engine..I understand that a 12 valve with a blower is a hot ticket..
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Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12413487)
016 is stronger than an 01A trans.
The o1e would be necessary to support a high powered Vr6. |
Originally Posted by Forty-six and 2
(Post 12413687)
Not by much. It still has a main shaft bearing support issue and a narrow gear set.
The o1e would be necessary to support a high powered Vr6. Ultimate solution...R35 GTR transaxle with standalone controller :) They can be found for $5-7k (or $11k new). |
Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12413487)
016 is stronger than an 01A trans.
but itd be good to have at least another option of transaxle when the 944 parts start to run out.
Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12414406)
Ultimate solution...R35 GTR transaxle with standalone controller :) They can be found for $5-7k (or $11k new).
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Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12414406)
Plenty of people have run the 951/S2 016's (or even better, the AOR/AOT with hardened 1/2/input shaft) with 500+whp with success (including torquey strokers and V8's). They are stronger than the usual Audi 016 (and 944 N/A box), and especially more than an 01A. Yes, the 968 01E is stronger still, but I wouldn't say it's a requirement for a VR.
You are probably right. My knowledge isn't first hand. Only comes from the research I have done while searching for an 800+ whp transaxle solution for my Audi TT build. From what I understand, the 016 has only a slightly better chance of survival than an o2a, which has a limit of right around 400 ft.lbs. of torque. It has been presented to me as an option that isn't worth spending the money on, when a slightly higher priced hardened o2e would be the lasting choice. I still won't settle for the 016 for my Audi build, but that is only my choice made from my research. I would love to see a Vr swap done with one of these cars. I couldn't be happier with the way my VW 16vt is turning out. |
Originally Posted by Forty-six and 2
(Post 12414760)
You are probably right. My knowledge isn't first hand. Only comes from the research I have done while searching for an 800+ whp transaxle solution for my Audi TT build. From what I understand, the 016 has only a slightly better chance of survival than an o2a, which has a limit of right around 400 ft.lbs. of torque. It has been presented to me as an option that isn't worth spending the money on, when a slightly higher priced hardened o2e would be the lasting choice. I still won't settle for the 016 for my Audi build, but that is only my choice made from my research.
I would love to see a Vr swap done with one of these cars. I couldn't be happier with the way my VW 16vt is turning out. What trans is your TT using? Boxster 012? I'd think a FWD TDI 01E would be the best to get. I think the 01E is still generally referred to as stronger than the newer 01X, 0A2 options. |
Figured this would be useful for you since the 1.8T is the same bellhousing pattern as the 07K. Looks like the 931 bellhousing won't work as it's mostly the old Audi I5 pattern which is different from the VW I4 (some Audi/VW transmissions like the 01E have both patterns; older trans do not).
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...l#post12442868
Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12442868)
Finally picked up a 931 bellhousing.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3774/...aaae5181_b.jpgIMG_20150717_210930296 by Vex Art, on Flickr Sadly, it looks like the 931 bellhousing, despite being used on an Audi I4 has the I5 bellhousing pattern (along with sharing the lower 2 944 bellhousing botls). This doesn't really help since the 07K uses the VW I4 pattern. They only have 1 bolt in common. 931 pattern bolts up perfectly to the 'vintage' I5. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/...8e54af98_b.jpgIMG_20150718_200259661 by Vex Art, on Flickr 01E bellhousing (modified to fit 07K; two bolt holes at the top need trimmed off) on top of the 944 bellhousing. Red are the VW I4/07K bolts, black are the vintage I5 bolts. The lower 944 bellhousing bolts share the vintage I5 bolts. A large portion of the upper 944 bellhousing would need to be removed. Two of the 07K bolts could possibly be added to the 944 bellhousing by drilling holes and/or adding welding on a small amount of material to the bellhousing. https://farm1.staticflickr.com/274/1...2e777ee6_b.jpgIMG_20150718_231906658 by Vex Art, on Flickr The 01E bellhousing template mounted on the 07K engine. The red shows the 07K bolts, and yellow shows the 931/I5 bolts. Only one bolt is shared. https://farm1.staticflickr.com/378/1...f0b75635_b.jpgIMG_20150718_205425310 by Vex Art, on Flickr I think it would be possible to add at least two more shared bolts to the 931 bellhousing pretty easily. The 07K red hole could easily be drilled, there is a nice flat spot on the bellhousing for it. https://farm1.staticflickr.com/441/1...3454a887_b.jpgIMG_20150718_231546048 by Vex Art, on Flickr The other one would require a small tab to be welded to the 931 bellhousing. This would give 3 matching bolts. I'd want to find at least one more. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/...9265cfbc_b.jpgIMG_20150718_231558430 by Vex Art, on Flickr One ear on the 931 bellhousing would need to be removed (much like the 01E) to clear the 07K timing chain cover. But not nearly as much material as the 944 bellhousing would need. I'm going to order an OEM 01E spacer to help do some more planning. I think both the 944 and 931 bellhousing would take the same amount of work to make work with the 07K. The 944 would require a lot more trimming and then welding to 're-enclose' the bellhousing. The 931 would require slight modifications and no welding to 're-enclose'. An adapter plate might be the best route and would probably work better with the 931 bellhousing. I need to get an 07K clutch/flywheel so I can figure out stack heights and see if I can even run a spacer/adapter plate. Progress will continue to be slow, the 968 is at the bottom of the list of many projects...
Originally Posted by alxdgr8
(Post 12444825)
Broke out my 3D scanner for the first time in a long time and scanned the rear of my 07K. Then built a crude model of an 012 bellhousing (since that's what I had a drawing for and it's basically an 01E).
You can see here why the 01E has to be modified to fit the timing cover and you can see bolt holes that line up (marked in red). I missed some holes on my wood mockup since some of them you can't practically fit a drill bit through the backside. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/...e017b7b9_b.jpg07K_Interference by Vex Art, on Flickr Next step is to order an 01E spacer. I'm going to mock it up and see if it could be welded to a modified 944 bellhousing to be used as an adapter. http://assets.suredone.com/1517/medi...-103-551-c.jpg |
Cool idea Alex - to use the spacer as a potential adapter. The trick is holding it square so you don't end up with English on the tip of the drive shaft that goes into the crank snout. You could weld it up and if you're close then have it machined back true/parallel to the flange that bolts to the torque tube.
I'm moving foward with the Audi bell housing from a quattro B5. We have a plan of attack to finish it up and I'll share here eventually. Sorry for delay on this ... the 911 has been suckling from deep in my play funds again. |
I've strayed from that idea since the spacer only has I5 patterns in it (I didn't pay enough attention before buying it). That and it has pretty questionable metallurgical properties so I don't want to depend on it for any strength.
My latest idea is to actually use the 944 bellhousing. One hole lines up and another just needs to be tapped (the red hole in the picture). https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3722/...66c26996_b.jpg Then, I think you could use these bosses on the bottom side of the bellhousing to attach a billet adapter to pick up a few more holes. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/...07310648_b.jpg https://farm1.staticflickr.com/519/1...982420eb_b.jpg Gotta do some more CAD work... |
Interested to see what you do with the B5 bellhousing. I've got a spare 01E torn apart that I was planning on using for parts to convert a 5spd to 6spd, so I'll have a spare bellhousing I can hack up too.
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any updates on this?
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It's not dead yet... but no progress either. House projects are taking all my car hobby time...
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Have asked QuickTime to produce these for retail distribution. They hold many of the production patents.
Rm-4082 engine face to RM-6033 transmission face. Will let you guys know what the response is. |
Originally Posted by Lapkritis
(Post 13278662)
Have asked QuickTime to produce these for retail distribution. They hold many of the production patents.
Rm-4082 engine face to RM-6033 transmission face. Will let you guys know what the response is. |
Worst case is make an adapter plate for the RM-4082 bellhousing for the torque tube connection. I wonder what the depth of that adapter is?
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Dimensions are over to Holley/Quicktime... have been exchanging emails with their front end team to have a first prototype generated. Hopefully more details soon as I'd like to drive this thing and also get the space in my garage back this year. It would also be nice to have another swap option within the family for all these cars that are losing or have lost engines.
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Awesome! Doing the standard Audi/VW 15* lean angle?
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Originally Posted by Lapkritis
(Post 13383202)
Dimensions are over to Holley/Quicktime... have been exchanging emails with their front end team to have a first prototype generated. Hopefully more details soon as I'd like to drive this thing and also get the space in my garage back this year. It would also be nice to have another swap option within the family for all these cars that are losing or have lost engines.
As someone who comes from the MKIII and MKIV VW world it's nice to see engines I'm familiar with be mentioned and even used. |
Really looking forward to this bellhousing solution.
Motor werks racing is also working on a complete DIY swap kit, but I can't get a release date or price from them yet. Starting to wonder if it's worth the wait or if I should just go the custom route. |
Originally Posted by nathanhoover101
(Post 13488086)
Really looking forward to this bellhousing solution.
Motor werks racing is also working on a complete DIY swap kit, but I can't get a release date or price from them yet... |
Nice looking T-6 there in the hanger..
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Nice looking green 944, das944! What color is that? Very sharp.
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Originally Posted by Tiger03447
(Post 14014202)
Nice looking T-6 there in the hanger..
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Originally Posted by 2002M3Drew
(Post 14022099)
Nice looking green 944, das944! What color is that? Very sharp.
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Originally Posted by 2002M3Drew
(Post 14022099)
Nice looking green 944, das944! What color is that? Very sharp.
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fantastic work!
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A team in the NH loudon lemons race had been running a 1.8T passat engine in their 944. i think it was 2013/14/15. They had a company that was upstate NH or ME that specialized in engine swapping.
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Originally Posted by pyropete125
(Post 14035266)
A team in the NH loudon lemons race had been running a 1.8T passat engine in their 944. i think it was 2013/14/15. They had a company that was upstate NH or ME that specialized in engine swapping.
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It would be great if this were made into a kit, there are loads of half-dead Passats out there that can be picked up for a song and that chart suggests a large weight savings is possible:
http://www.motorwerksracing.com/pors...sion-18t-swap/ If the stock ECU could be used it is very tuneable and has a great MAF/MAP system with integrated knock-aware boost control. Oil sludge is a problem with the 1.8T however. |
Originally Posted by Jfrahm
(Post 14038684)
It would be great if this were made into a kit, there are loads of half-dead Passats out there that can be picked up for a song and that chart suggests a large weight savings is possible:
http://www.motorwerksracing.com/pors...sion-18t-swap/ If the stock ECU could be used it is very tuneable and has a great MAF/MAP system with integrated knock-aware boost control. Oil sludge is a problem with the 1.8T however. |
Originally Posted by pyropete125
(Post 14037326)
Thinking about that swap today and I'm pretty sure that they said a bell housing from a 931 was almost a direct adapter fit
The 931 bellhousing doesn't work for the 1.8T engine, they only share one bolt. 931 has basically the I5 pattern which is different from the I4 one. Red bolts are 1.8T (or 07k in my case), yellow are 931 bellhousing bolts. https://farm1.staticflickr.com/378/1...f0b75635_b.jpg |
Any news about this project? I'm about to do the same thing. Plan is to cut bell housing from A4 B5 gearbox and then just weld suitable adapter in the bottom of it. I would also like to avoid chassis modifications.
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Wicked build!
How was the fitment of the SPA exhaust manifold? They seem to be decently priced but haven't heard much about them. Are you running an external wastegate? Is there room to even run one with that manifold without clearance issues with the strut tower? What turbo do you have mounted to the manifold? I didn't see the details but maybe I missed a post. I also have a 1.8t AEB that will be swapped in to my 924 next year (hopefully). |
OP has been gone for over a year.
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all these f_cking astronauts.... we've been hearing about these phantom vw +/- Audi projects that never get completed for going on 2 decades now....
enough with the insanity.... that ought to tell you a lot about the superiority of running the massive GM 4.0 stroker H3 Hummer i-5 turbo. or GM v8... and who could blame you? because all you really wanted was f_cking VW or Audi to build a god-damned large displacement 5 cylinder crate engine all along ....so the proletariat on 5 continents could drive a good are with a decent engine for a 2nd go-round.... yeah, a big f_cking crate motor like all those wacky Americans have. yeah, it's still Hotrodding 101: there's no substitute for cubic inches. |
dont know of anybody who's put an Atlas (family of that H3 I5) in a 944...would be awesome but its a tall motor...
how long did your swap take to pull off, with a commercially available kit? :) |
a while... but it's coming along.
You'll get to see some things sorted out in a few weeks. driving 5 1/2 inches over the pavement is fun. :bowdown: but, when you ride that close to the tarmac for tens of thousands of miles, stuff happens. whether you're running a Carrera GT, TVR or 968, inevitably, you hit something, and you're a daisy if you do; sh_t contorts into shapes where it was never meant to go ....and repairs sometimes will need to be made. :D |
What turbo do you have mounted to the manifold? I didn't see the details but maybe I missed a post. I also have a 1.8t AEB that will be swapped in to my 924 next year (hopefully). I have garret 54/57mm billet turbo with T3 flange and I'm going to use external wastegate. I haven't decided yet what to do with the exhaust manifold. Spa-turbo twin scroll manifold could be good if there is enough room for it. On the other hand i would like to weld unequal length exhaust manifold with sip-on merge collector... Just like MWR did in their +400hp models. One alternative is to modify this manifold for t3 flange: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/VW-Passat-1-...item2386a39f6c I had that in my A4 B5 and I worked fine. No cracks and spooling was fast. MWR is using modified version of that too. At least it looks like it. |
Not sure if there will be enough room with that ebay manifold for a bigger turbo. It looks like MWR uses a tubular manifold like you mentioned that puts the turbo out front of the engine. I have asked a couple of people that have successfully completed this swap how much room there is in between the stock KO3 and the frame rail but havent heard back yet.
One swap that I have looked at had the frame rail modified to make room for the stock turbo and stock manifold. I think that person mentioned that they had a different engine orientation (engine rotated towards the passenger side frame rail) which caused the interference. The MWR cars with the stock turbo locations look to be running the stock KO3 turbos or something close to that size. I also looked at the spa twin scroll manifold but I think the waste gate pipe will interfere with the strut tower. This is only a guess at this point. I was curious at the turbo size that was used in this build since it looks big and looks to fit but is close to the strut tower. |
I'm going to relocate the turbo anyway so the size really isn't a problem. There will be plenty of space in the front of the engine.
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Working on mine now...
Adapter plate made, motor mounts, flywheel, clutch, release bearing. starter figured out... Used the same engine angle as the stock 944, gives clearance for a Grams Performance intake man (same as MWR runs?), but the exh man is REAL close to the fender apron and strut tower. Small KO3/KO4 turbo might fit, but that isn't workable for me. Looks like some remote mounted turbo is in my future. It's been a damn long process, but when I'm more ambitious, I'll start my own thread... at least I took a bunch of pix along the way .https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e215f61e30.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4455f1e027.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...be3db571ce.jpg |
It's crazy how compact those engines are.
Nice work, I love how you re-used the stock engine mount arms. |
Looking at the pix from the start of this thread (Thanks Lapkritis!)...
Zero chance that top mount turbo clears the strut tower unless the engine stands up more vertically. Seems like it would be a compromise either way. Either the exh or the intake man will have interference. Examined all the MWR pix closely during my build, I think we arrived at some of the same solutions. Electric water pump, relocated oil filter, Grams intake man... I would LOVE to see their starter/flywheel/clutch solution! Mine is completely functional, and not mickey mouse in the least, but I would have done it more neatly with a 10X budget! Prototype components, still need a little polish... https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...37b9c6d5fe.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...178d0ac77f.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...953361a3d5.jpg |
Bet you could sell those adapters, or make a wood drill template for diyers...
Put the turbo on the driver side like a 951, lol |
Spent a lot of time on the adapter, to make sure that the VW pilot bearing is concentric with the 944 input shaft and that all 4 locating dowels line up.
Put the dimensions into Autocad, then had the plate run on a CNC mill. I was planning to get it running before I mentioned that they might be 'available'... There should be enough room on the right side of the motor for the turbo, mounted lower down, remotely from the manifold. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5c750c4168.jpg |
Nice project.
What are your hp goals? |
Interested to know which kind of clutch setup you have? I haven't bought anything yet but my plan is to use 240mm flywheel (built for S4/RS4 pressure plate) , B5 RS4 pressure plate and clutch disc is still under investigation. It seems that 911 turbo plate might do the trick. I got my adapter nearly ready last Saturday. I took different approach building the adapter. Mine is done from Passat gearbox shell.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tl5uwl9ee...W0C_81jia?dl=0 |
^^ looking for ~300HP at the wheels. Previous (and blown up again...) 944T motor was ~350. I think the car will still haul ass acceptably.
Seemed like I had 4 options to make the flywheel/clutch/starter all work. Carve up a passat trans, mounting the starter low and forward under the exhaust, use a passat flywheel/clutch/starter. (probably would have been a better idea, but might compromise my turbo location) Carve up a GTI trans, mount the starter low and to the rear (and need to carve up the body shell for clearance too, not workable for me) Use the 944 bellhousing/starter/clutch, and have a custom flywheel made (slickest idea of the bunch, but I didn't even research how much that would cost!) Or what I did... cut the starter mounting boss out of the 944 bellhousing and made my own mount. Using a GTI flywheel and pressure plate, and currently a disc from a Ranger pickup. Release bearing is an annular one from a later model VW, with its own bracket to the B/H Little concerned about the bellhousing strength since it's got a big chunk out of it now, but I made some brackets to install either side of the cutout to brace it to the adapter. |
Did you manage to squeeze that oil pan in there? I studied MWR pictures and ended up using MK3 Golf GTI alloy oil pan. Haven't tried it yet but it looks very much the same and there is a change that it might fit without cutting and welding. We'll see...
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What make and model electric water pump did you use? Might need one for another project car that I have. Thanks in advance.
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^^ haven't finalized the oil pan or the water pump yet.
Currently mocked up a rabbit oil pan with the front section trimmed out for cross member clearance. Won't post up any pix of that, as my welding skills are a quite sad. Ebay has steel Rabbit pans for ~$30, I can afford to F' up another one... The 1.8t oil pump is much bigger than a rabbit, but the rabbit pickup still bolts up and is in the right place in the pan. Also picked up a used Super Vee dry sump pan, very shallow and should clear with no mods. Not sure I want to deal with a dry sump system, but it is a race car... Davies, Craig makes a variety of electric water pumps, but haven't picked one yet. Available at Hoerr Racing or Pegasus. More worried about the turbo location! |
Now that you have such a short engine (compared to stock) can't you fit the turbo somewhere in front?
Nice work! I've always been interested in this, I have a vr6 sitting in the corner that I want to put in a 944. The starter was a big issue for me too. |
VR6 was on my list of possibles, but seemed like the 1.8t was a better fit for my purposes... cheap, plentiful, cheap to upgrade, suitable power, (and durable?)
Considered all the typical Japanese engines too, but keeping it all German keeps it eligible for NASA GTS racing. Could put the turbo out front if needed, but I think it'll be a simpler package down low on the pass side. |
Originally Posted by FRporscheman
(Post 14665635)
Nice work! I've always been interested in this, I have a vr6 sitting in the corner that I want to put in a 944. The starter was a big issue for me too.
would need a flex plate w starter ring, steal it from an auto 944... |
Gotta remember to start it in neutral with the clutch engaged!
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Rethinking the starter... I wonder just how much it would cost to have a 944T flywheel made with the right depth and drilling for the volks motor.
Hah! too late now... Bonus savings using an ebay GTI light flywheel/clutch kit. Will need to have a disc made for the final install. The Ranger truck disc is fine for mock up, but I don't expect it to hold the HP. |
Just buy that Chinese stainless tubular mani and modify it like MWR did. I had that manifold in my A4 B5 1.8T over 10.000km and and it worked fine. Everyone says they crack but I believe that they won't if you have good support for the turbo. There are models which crack but that ain't one of those. Just cut the flange out of it, weld couple of curves and there you have it. That manifold sits quite close to the head.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/for-97-06-AUDI-A4-VW-PASSAT-1-8T-1-8L-20V-STAINLESS-STEEL-k04-TURBO-MANIFOLD-5/121782907879?epid=717096615&hash=item1c5ad3b3e7:g:XwYAAOSwuspY9tpZ&vxp=m tr How was it with RX-8 Disc? If I don't remember wrong it also has 240mm disc with right splines. |
I was leaning away from a custom flywheel as well. I wanted to use the vr6 flywheel, PP, TOB and fork, along with a modified vr6 bellhousing (or a custom one). Then look through catalogs for the right pilot bearing and clutch disc.
For the starter, I thought about a BAS from a GM/Chevy. Basically it's an alternator/generator/starter. Advantage, it makes the car a hybrid, so maybe I could get smog exemption. LOL in my dreams... |
The 968 6MT starter has a long nose so it could bolt to a 944 bellhousing and extend through a bellhousing adapter to reach the flywheel. Maybe the starter boss could be machined or shimmed to match the starter to the flywheel.
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Originally Posted by Jfrahm
(Post 14666877)
The 968 6MT starter has a long nose so it could bolt to a 944 bellhousing and extend through a bellhousing adapter to reach the flywheel. Maybe the starter boss could be machined or shimmed to match the starter to the flywheel.
The GTI ring gear is at least similar, if not the same as the 944T, just mounted on the flywheel instead of the PP. 968 starter might be just the ticket. The GTI clutch is 228mm (~9")... I'll need to have one made. Porsche spline count and diameter are the same as an RX8 or Ford/Mazda small truck |
There is one pricey but well working combination. Clutchmasters has bolt on set for this setup and it has steel flywheel, 240mm clutch and pressure plate. Should hold over 500nm of torque. That flywheel has S4/RS4 design so you could probably buy just the flywheel and use RS4 pressure plate with suitable disc.
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Got the Gram's intake manifold today... learned something too: It won't clear the hood!
Looking closely at the MWR pix, I suspect they stand the motor up a little from the stock 944 angle. Seems a little closer to the booster in their pix. 3 options: Hood bulge Machine the manifold at an angle (or make an angle adapter) to lay it down a little Redo my adapter plate to stand the motor up. 3rd option is the neatest, also allows more room down the right side for the turbo. B*tch! https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e95cd6d637.jpg |
Angle adapter, definitely.
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Tempted to redo the adapter... easy change in the autocad file, but burns $100 worth of aluminum and another $200 at the machine shop. "R&D cost"
The extra room on the other side for the turbo might make it worthwhile. %$#@!. And that's about all I have to say about that... |
how much hood interference?
could you shave the bottom of the engine mount arms to lower the whole engine vertically? |
Prob 1 1/2"? Don't want to drop the engine too much on account of the oil pan clearance.
Thought of scrapping $300 pisses me off big time... but I do like to do things the right way. Character flaw. |
yikes...
that intake that much better than the stock B5 :p |
Stock Audi A4 man puts the throttle body into the master cyl,
Stock GTI man stands up taller still... |
?? this one? passat/A4 90s/00s
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f...t%2Bengine.jpg if you're up for an experiment (something i want to try but dont have an excuse to yet), the brake MC from a current Subaru Outback (2014?+) has the same bore as the 944 and the flange looks like it could adapt (or take an adapter) to fit the 944 booster. but it's about 3" shorter overall than the 944 MC. http://www.rockauto.com/info/111/134401-BAC__ra_p.jpg |
Hmmmm.
Still tempted to stand the engine more upright for added turbo clearance. |
Has a VW or Audi engine ever successfully pulled a Porsche 944 down the road (not counting the (very) good old Porsche/Audi 924's that ran the 2.0 Audi 80/VW van/golf variant engines) ....evaar ??
Seems like wr've had a good half dozen of these threads.... w/ assorted levels of brilliance ...but i can't seem to recall if any actually ended up running the autobahn or wherever..... i realize that these innocent but tough questions can so easily be taken the wrong way on a forum with so many challenged (re; not running) examples. Please pardon if there's any impression given of derisive intent. Sometimes it's hard (remembering)..... |
there's a number of running (for years) examples on the 924board.org.
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Search Motor Works (Werks?) Racing... they have some very polished looking race cars.
I was actually working on mine before I saw theirs, but those pix been massively helpful! |
Yeah, those were my motivation pictures too. Actually when I saw those pictures I decided that is what I'm going to do if I get bigger problems with my S2 engine. I didn't have to wait for too long :D
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Originally Posted by morghen
(Post 14691086)
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Any updates on these? Looking to do a swap of my own and just wanted to make sure it's not a total waste of time
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Still working on it, still making progress.
Was planning to wait until I made it run before I posted anything more, but it's in the home stretch now. Re did the adapter to stand the motor up. Got lucky and found a scrap 3/4" piece of plate for $30! Not so lucky on the machining. The last shop I used was 'not interested', others were too busy. The one guy I found couldn't figure out the autocad file! Finally made it myself on a friend's Bridgeport. Manifold still contacts the hood, but a small bulge will accommodate that. Alternatively, I could space the crossmember down like they do with the LS swaps. Able to use an off-the-shelf SPA exh manifold, but the turbo only clears with the exhaust pointed fwd. If they made a reverse rotation GT2871 turbo, it would be perfect. Just a minor challenge. Working on the oil plumbing now, using the factory oil pump for scavenge with a single stage dry sump pump for pressure. Need to notch the front of the pan for crossmember clearance. Today's pix: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e8a4cede4b.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f77c4ff737.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2a3ea80ba5.jpg The amount of fab work required is just stupid... it's no wonder that most of these threads eventually go cold. Still need to plumb the oil and cooling systems, modify the oil pan, address engine management (AEM?), finalize the exhaust... Then assemble the real engine and install it. I'm particularly stubborn, and my motto is "the CAR never wins." It will run, and I hope to have it out on the track before the end of the year. |
Have you looked into some of the low-profile sump's and oil pans? those could be a potential option, although the oil req's could be a hinderance, idk these engines super well but it may be an option. Great build though, I'd be interested in purchasing those plans for the mounts and torqu tube, or potentialy some pre-made adapters when I swap out my NA for one of these 1.8's. Local euro shop quoted me 2500 for a timing belt job on my stock engine so at this point im looking to do a swap instead, purley for street driving though nothing too crazy. Im still in school too so I have plenty of time for fab work lol
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Motor Werks Racing might be selling plate/flywheel kits now, making the swap a lot more straightforward.
Ludicrous to build your own... come to think of it, this who;e thing has been pretty retarded! I have hundreds of hours into it, thousands of $$, and not done yet. Haven't investigated any low profile pans, easy enough to use a cut-down stamped steel Rabbit oil pan. They're $30 on ebay. The dry sump is just for insurance on the track. If it was a street car, I could probably baffle the Rabbit pan and be safe. Still need to address the brake M/C, as the booster interferes with the intake man. A lot of the LS swap guys adapt the BMW hydro boost system, but this has no P/S. CNC Brakes makes the perfect dual M/C mount with a balance bar, but it's $400. %$#&! If you can contemplate doing this swap, changing your own timing belts will be a breeze... |
Timing belts are the main motivation behind doing the whole swap lol, that and the horsies with the improved power to weight ratio. Saw on another thread a guy is having some bell housings made that are compatible with both the 07K (2.5, 5 Cylinder) and the 1.8t. Looks like a fairly straight forward swap with minimal fabrication, so I'll probably get in on that.
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"fairly straightforward"
:banghead: |
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