LS1 conversion
07-02-2014, 11:10 PM
#1
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LS1 conversion
I know this is an issue that polarizes the 944 community. I'm still new to the community, and on this issue, I don't really know where I stand yet. Let's just say that I see pluses and minuses either way.
Let me further say that I've read some of the threads about LS1s, but I have yet to find a good estimate on the total cost of the conversion. Looking up the cost of the engine itself is easy, I can look at eBay or Craigslist. But I don't really know what else is involved.
For the engine, I've gathered that one pulled from an F-body is better than one pulled from a Corvette, due to how the accessories are mounted. If it's a bare long block with no accessories, does that still matter? What accessories, if any, from the donor GM car will be carried over?
Should a potential convert look for an engine that comes with a wiring harness and/or computer? Or will these be custom or sourced elsewhere?
What about the drivetrain? Is the 944 transaxle still used, or is it replaced with a Corvette transaxle or something else? I've read that the 944 NA transaxle is unsuitable due to gearing, but the turbo transaxles are most commonly used. Then I've read something about using the NA 5th gear. What's that all about? I have an NA car with LSD, if I got a suitable turbo transaxle without LSD, could I swap my LSD into it? Would I want to?
I've read something about an issue with brakes, not sure I really understood what that was about. The way 944 brakes are boosted isn't compatible with the way the LS1 works, something like that, what's all that about? What's the solution?
So let's say a person is starting with an '86 NA car, and has friends to help, and everybody is mechanically inclined. The only thing this group of people can't do is custom fab work, but part swapping should be no problem. Taking labor out of the equation, looking at parts only, how much is this going to cost?
(IF I decide to do it...which I haven't decided yet one way or the other...)
Let me further say that I've read some of the threads about LS1s, but I have yet to find a good estimate on the total cost of the conversion. Looking up the cost of the engine itself is easy, I can look at eBay or Craigslist. But I don't really know what else is involved.
For the engine, I've gathered that one pulled from an F-body is better than one pulled from a Corvette, due to how the accessories are mounted. If it's a bare long block with no accessories, does that still matter? What accessories, if any, from the donor GM car will be carried over?
Should a potential convert look for an engine that comes with a wiring harness and/or computer? Or will these be custom or sourced elsewhere?
What about the drivetrain? Is the 944 transaxle still used, or is it replaced with a Corvette transaxle or something else? I've read that the 944 NA transaxle is unsuitable due to gearing, but the turbo transaxles are most commonly used. Then I've read something about using the NA 5th gear. What's that all about? I have an NA car with LSD, if I got a suitable turbo transaxle without LSD, could I swap my LSD into it? Would I want to?
I've read something about an issue with brakes, not sure I really understood what that was about. The way 944 brakes are boosted isn't compatible with the way the LS1 works, something like that, what's all that about? What's the solution?
So let's say a person is starting with an '86 NA car, and has friends to help, and everybody is mechanically inclined. The only thing this group of people can't do is custom fab work, but part swapping should be no problem. Taking labor out of the equation, looking at parts only, how much is this going to cost?
(IF I decide to do it...which I haven't decided yet one way or the other...)
07-02-2014, 11:29 PM
#3
Here reporting for duty...
You and some friends can do it, if you can source a cheap engine, for around 3-4k total.
Get a 951 or s2 trans.
You can use the factory harness, I have a painless harness and it's great. You can make your own and run standalone if you want. Also you can use the factory ecu.
The brakes need to be converted to manual or you can use a hydroboost setup.
There's MUCH more to elaborate on...I just sent a guy an email that I took about a while to write some info for him from my personal experiences. I just post it here
You and some friends can do it, if you can source a cheap engine, for around 3-4k total.
Get a 951 or s2 trans.
You can use the factory harness, I have a painless harness and it's great. You can make your own and run standalone if you want. Also you can use the factory ecu.
The brakes need to be converted to manual or you can use a hydroboost setup.
There's MUCH more to elaborate on...I just sent a guy an email that I took about a while to write some info for him from my personal experiences. I just post it here
07-02-2014, 11:34 PM
#4
I just post it here for other people interested. ...
Well here we go...
Engine- you mentioned junkyard engines... The obvious first choices would be an LS1 out of a vette, camaro, firebird, etc. and an LS2 out of a gto or vette. These are going to cost more, another solution is a truck engine. They come in 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, and 6.0 flavors and can usually be had for $500 or less. The truck engines will require you to use an LS2 or 6 intake for clearance. You can also find an LT1/4 or a sbc engine, but the mounts and bellhousings are different from the LS engines. Doing an lt twice, I would much rather go truck engine with maybe some ported/worked over corvette heads as they can be had for cheap. Hindsight is a bitch. The ls/ls based truck engines are like Legos, you can interchange things very easy and this makes for awesome power gains if you decide to modify down the road.
Mounts- Texas Performance Concepts has them as well as anything else you will need, sub frame spacers for good clearance, bellhousing, clutch kit, etc.
Exhaust- tpc also offers a couple types of headers, long tubes and shorty headers. Lt's are expensive but worth it. Shorty is good if you're on a budget.
For the lt engines, there are a couple aftermarket headers that work from Sanderson. Patriot also makes ones that will work but have to be modified. I have fully custom mid length headers which is a great solution if you can fabricate.
(My exhaust consists of custom headers each with a 3" v band collector, y pipe to a single 4" corrector, straight through muffler 4" ask the way back)
after the headers you will have to get the rest of the exhaust built. You will need 4 o2 sensor bungs unless you tune out 2 of them. Early lt engines only used 2 also.
Wiring- easy. Easier than you think. I have all the wiring pinouts and diagrams when you need them. You slice less than 10 wires I think. You can get an aftermarket harness or pull one out of the donor car you got the engine from, also take the ecu.
Trans- you're going to want to find a turbo or S2 trans because they are stronger. The NA one is weak and fragile, the torque WILL break it. You can use it for a short while if you absolutely have to, but you're driving on borrowed time.
Cooling- upgrade to a turbo or s2 radiator, they're thicker and a little longer, or an aftermarket unit. I had issues with the stock fan fitment so I got two slim fans and they fit great and I have plenty of clearance. You can also get a lower temp thermostat and program you're ecu to turn on the fans when your tstat opens. Water wetter keeps temps down too.
Brakes- you need to remove the vacuum assist, the valve covers are in the way. This presents a situation, manual brakes or hydroboost. Hydroboost gives you power brakes by assisting via power steering pump. People use the Mustang or BMW system. Back to what you need to do. .. Find a junkyard 924 and take the "cereal bowl". It's a plate (kind of) that the brake master cylinder and diaphragm mount to on the firewall. The 944 one is deeper and the 924 is shallow but they have the same bolt pattern. Then, you have to make an adapter plate to mount the master cylinder to that bowl. I can send you pics of mine when you're ready.
I have a manual sport steering rack so I'm running manual brakes, I have upgraded to boxster 4 piston calipers and 1984-89 911 Carrera slotted and drilled rotors made possible by some adapters. You might want ti think about a brake upgrade as well.
You're going to need all the swap parts- Texas Performance Concepts. Things like clutch kit, trans, mounts, headers, vss kit, etc. Quality parts. Check out 944hybrids.forumotion.com
Great forum, I found most of my swap parts used on the classifieds section and kept my costs down. There's a lot of good people in the forum that are willing to help.
You're also going to want to upgrade your suspension of it isn't already, or modify what you do have. I can help with that also if you want.
If you have any other concerns feel free to ask. I could expand exponentially on each of the subjects but I covered all the bases for you.
Well here we go...
Engine- you mentioned junkyard engines... The obvious first choices would be an LS1 out of a vette, camaro, firebird, etc. and an LS2 out of a gto or vette. These are going to cost more, another solution is a truck engine. They come in 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, and 6.0 flavors and can usually be had for $500 or less. The truck engines will require you to use an LS2 or 6 intake for clearance. You can also find an LT1/4 or a sbc engine, but the mounts and bellhousings are different from the LS engines. Doing an lt twice, I would much rather go truck engine with maybe some ported/worked over corvette heads as they can be had for cheap. Hindsight is a bitch. The ls/ls based truck engines are like Legos, you can interchange things very easy and this makes for awesome power gains if you decide to modify down the road.
Mounts- Texas Performance Concepts has them as well as anything else you will need, sub frame spacers for good clearance, bellhousing, clutch kit, etc.
Exhaust- tpc also offers a couple types of headers, long tubes and shorty headers. Lt's are expensive but worth it. Shorty is good if you're on a budget.
For the lt engines, there are a couple aftermarket headers that work from Sanderson. Patriot also makes ones that will work but have to be modified. I have fully custom mid length headers which is a great solution if you can fabricate.
(My exhaust consists of custom headers each with a 3" v band collector, y pipe to a single 4" corrector, straight through muffler 4" ask the way back)
after the headers you will have to get the rest of the exhaust built. You will need 4 o2 sensor bungs unless you tune out 2 of them. Early lt engines only used 2 also.
Wiring- easy. Easier than you think. I have all the wiring pinouts and diagrams when you need them. You slice less than 10 wires I think. You can get an aftermarket harness or pull one out of the donor car you got the engine from, also take the ecu.
Trans- you're going to want to find a turbo or S2 trans because they are stronger. The NA one is weak and fragile, the torque WILL break it. You can use it for a short while if you absolutely have to, but you're driving on borrowed time.
Cooling- upgrade to a turbo or s2 radiator, they're thicker and a little longer, or an aftermarket unit. I had issues with the stock fan fitment so I got two slim fans and they fit great and I have plenty of clearance. You can also get a lower temp thermostat and program you're ecu to turn on the fans when your tstat opens. Water wetter keeps temps down too.
Brakes- you need to remove the vacuum assist, the valve covers are in the way. This presents a situation, manual brakes or hydroboost. Hydroboost gives you power brakes by assisting via power steering pump. People use the Mustang or BMW system. Back to what you need to do. .. Find a junkyard 924 and take the "cereal bowl". It's a plate (kind of) that the brake master cylinder and diaphragm mount to on the firewall. The 944 one is deeper and the 924 is shallow but they have the same bolt pattern. Then, you have to make an adapter plate to mount the master cylinder to that bowl. I can send you pics of mine when you're ready.
I have a manual sport steering rack so I'm running manual brakes, I have upgraded to boxster 4 piston calipers and 1984-89 911 Carrera slotted and drilled rotors made possible by some adapters. You might want ti think about a brake upgrade as well.
You're going to need all the swap parts- Texas Performance Concepts. Things like clutch kit, trans, mounts, headers, vss kit, etc. Quality parts. Check out 944hybrids.forumotion.com
Great forum, I found most of my swap parts used on the classifieds section and kept my costs down. There's a lot of good people in the forum that are willing to help.
You're also going to want to upgrade your suspension of it isn't already, or modify what you do have. I can help with that also if you want.
If you have any other concerns feel free to ask. I could expand exponentially on each of the subjects but I covered all the bases for you.
07-03-2014, 12:18 AM
#5
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For the suspension and brake upgrades, I'm currently working on figuring out what parts I need to convert my small-offset car into a large-offset car, partly for future compatibility with late M030 suspension, and also for a planned Boxster ABS retrofit. So this offset swap is going to set the stage for better suspension and brakes later on.
Is the stock fuel pump capable of supplying the fuel the LS1 needs, or does it need to be changed out? What about the fuel lines, can they flow enough? What about the return--isn't the LS1 a return-less engine?
One last question: did your $3k-4k price estimate include an engine, or everything but the engine? If it included an engine, what were you figuring for the engine itself, so I know how to adjust according to the cost of the actual engine I get?
Is the stock fuel pump capable of supplying the fuel the LS1 needs, or does it need to be changed out? What about the fuel lines, can they flow enough? What about the return--isn't the LS1 a return-less engine?
One last question: did your $3k-4k price estimate include an engine, or everything but the engine? If it included an engine, what were you figuring for the engine itself, so I know how to adjust according to the cost of the actual engine I get?
07-03-2014, 08:44 AM
#6
Nordschleife Master
The cost of the engine is hard to gauge because there are so many choices; from the iron block truck motors to the aluminum block LS1, 2, 3, 6, 7 (if your crazy!) and dont forget the 5.3L Vortec motor. For a good condition LS1 i would set aside around $2500. Its a vague number, but unless we get specific with what is included, mileage and general condition its hard to put a number on it. I would not be concerned about the engine harness, PCM or any of the accessory drive stuff. The parts are easy to come by, just find a good motor and go from there.
The LSx can be run with a return fuel system, you just need to add an adjustable FPR. This is easier than converting to a return-less system because all you need to do is plumb in an adjustable FPR and make new fuel lines to fuel rails. The stock pump will probably be ok for a stock LS1, but if you decide to bump the power i would consider a larger pump.. plenty of options from a Bosch 044, Bosch 'high volume' from LR, Walboro...etc. The hard lines can supply plenty of fuel. If i remember right the supply is the equivalent of a -8AN so it can flow plenty.
If you paid a shop to do this conversion, i think $20k is a realistic estimate for a turn key conversion. This would be a LSx based swap with boosted brakes and power steering. It can be done cheaper of course, but you will sacrifice some of the bells and whistles. If your doing the swap yourself, assuming you buy all the conversion parts your looking at around $3k right there. Its really hard to put a number on it because it greatly depends how 'clean' a conversion you want to do.
All in all, i dont think this is too difficult a swap to do one self. Everything that would be difficult for a DIY'er to make can be bought now; oil pan, pickup tube, uprights, bell housing adapter, headers. Everything else can be done at home or locally; mostly the plumbing and fabricating the rest of the exhaust. I think where you will spend a great deal of time is figuring out which way to go for boosted brakes and getting everything installed. Thankfully there is alot of info now on putting in the Ford Mustang or BMW H31 hydroboost setups. Another option is an electric brake booster; though ive read this setup is problematic.
The LSx can be run with a return fuel system, you just need to add an adjustable FPR. This is easier than converting to a return-less system because all you need to do is plumb in an adjustable FPR and make new fuel lines to fuel rails. The stock pump will probably be ok for a stock LS1, but if you decide to bump the power i would consider a larger pump.. plenty of options from a Bosch 044, Bosch 'high volume' from LR, Walboro...etc. The hard lines can supply plenty of fuel. If i remember right the supply is the equivalent of a -8AN so it can flow plenty.
If you paid a shop to do this conversion, i think $20k is a realistic estimate for a turn key conversion. This would be a LSx based swap with boosted brakes and power steering. It can be done cheaper of course, but you will sacrifice some of the bells and whistles. If your doing the swap yourself, assuming you buy all the conversion parts your looking at around $3k right there. Its really hard to put a number on it because it greatly depends how 'clean' a conversion you want to do.
All in all, i dont think this is too difficult a swap to do one self. Everything that would be difficult for a DIY'er to make can be bought now; oil pan, pickup tube, uprights, bell housing adapter, headers. Everything else can be done at home or locally; mostly the plumbing and fabricating the rest of the exhaust. I think where you will spend a great deal of time is figuring out which way to go for boosted brakes and getting everything installed. Thankfully there is alot of info now on putting in the Ford Mustang or BMW H31 hydroboost setups. Another option is an electric brake booster; though ive read this setup is problematic.
07-03-2014, 11:31 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
You'll be very hard pressed to get this conversion done for $3k, no matter what engine you choose. Yes, you can get the iron block engines for as little as $600, however you still need the F body accessories, clutch, mounts, oil pan, bell housing or adapter plate, computer, headers, master cylinder, etc, etc.
Bear in mind the Texas Performance Concepts swap kit is something like $4000 all by itself and that doesn't come with a motor and several other key items. I've seen people get this swap done for $10k including the cost of the car by buying a car without a motor cheap, scoring a good deal on the LS and doing all the work themselves. That's about the lowest I've seen, otherwise figure quite a bit more...
If you run the Mustang hydroboost and plan on taking the car to the track you NEED the Turn 1 power steering pump, an adjustable rear brake proportioning valve and a power steering cooler. Those who say you don't have never taken their cars on track.
Bear in mind the Texas Performance Concepts swap kit is something like $4000 all by itself and that doesn't come with a motor and several other key items. I've seen people get this swap done for $10k including the cost of the car by buying a car without a motor cheap, scoring a good deal on the LS and doing all the work themselves. That's about the lowest I've seen, otherwise figure quite a bit more...
If you run the Mustang hydroboost and plan on taking the car to the track you NEED the Turn 1 power steering pump, an adjustable rear brake proportioning valve and a power steering cooler. Those who say you don't have never taken their cars on track.
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07-03-2014, 01:41 PM
#8
I did my swap for about 3k. I bought a lot of used parts, made some of my own, and hung out in junkyards. I got some really good deals too. It is possible to do it on a low budget. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to spend 10k on a swap but if a person is hard pressed on a budget and is determined it is possible. I was putting my self through school as well as having a child when I did my swap plus working a full time job. I needed the PAH!
I got rebuilt engine w/ some performance mods, painless wiring harness, reman ecu: $750 from someone local that needed money bad.
BH, aluminum flywheel, spec stg. 2+ clutch and pp (pretty much brand new), clutch slave, 2 throw out bearings and a pilot bearing, custom oil pan, mounts, custom headers, y pipe, high torque starter $1250+shipping
The other 1k was probably for things like a 951 trans ($300 shipped with a surprise lsd inside!), s2 radiator ($85 shipped), fans, hoses, throttle cable, new fluids, intake stuff, etc.
I got rebuilt engine w/ some performance mods, painless wiring harness, reman ecu: $750 from someone local that needed money bad.
BH, aluminum flywheel, spec stg. 2+ clutch and pp (pretty much brand new), clutch slave, 2 throw out bearings and a pilot bearing, custom oil pan, mounts, custom headers, y pipe, high torque starter $1250+shipping
The other 1k was probably for things like a 951 trans ($300 shipped with a surprise lsd inside!), s2 radiator ($85 shipped), fans, hoses, throttle cable, new fluids, intake stuff, etc.
07-03-2014, 04:12 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
I did my swap for about 3k. I bought a lot of used parts, made some of my own, and hung out in junkyards. I got some really good deals too. It is possible to do it on a low budget. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to spend 10k on a swap but if a person is hard pressed on a budget and is determined it is possible. I was putting my self through school as well as having a child when I did my swap plus working a full time job. I needed the PAH!
I got rebuilt engine w/ some performance mods, painless wiring harness, reman ecu: $750 from someone local that needed money bad.
BH, aluminum flywheel, spec stg. 2+ clutch and pp (pretty much brand new), clutch slave, 2 throw out bearings and a pilot bearing, custom oil pan, mounts, custom headers, y pipe, high torque starter $1250+shipping
The other 1k was probably for things like a 951 trans ($300 shipped with a surprise lsd inside!), s2 radiator ($85 shipped), fans, hoses, throttle cable, new fluids, intake stuff, etc.
I got rebuilt engine w/ some performance mods, painless wiring harness, reman ecu: $750 from someone local that needed money bad.
BH, aluminum flywheel, spec stg. 2+ clutch and pp (pretty much brand new), clutch slave, 2 throw out bearings and a pilot bearing, custom oil pan, mounts, custom headers, y pipe, high torque starter $1250+shipping
The other 1k was probably for things like a 951 trans ($300 shipped with a surprise lsd inside!), s2 radiator ($85 shipped), fans, hoses, throttle cable, new fluids, intake stuff, etc.
I admire your frugality but let's face it you put a lot of time and effort to meet that budget and got very very lucky on your deals.
Realistically I'd say we are talking $8k to convert an na properly and maybe $6k for a 951 if you get lucky on some of the parts and do all the work yourself.
Op, I've driven a well set up one of these things and they are a hoot!
07-03-2014, 04:47 PM
#10
I upgraded to boxster 4 piston calipers, carrera rotors, stainless lines for brakes. I'll probably to the master cylinder when I do the rears. This setup only cost me $350.
For the suspension, I have a 25.5mm front ($20 on cl) and 20mm rear sway ($75 shipped on rl), bilstein hd shocks ($150 for both brand new on cl) converted into coilovers for rear ($100 for sleeve and coilover kit with a couple sets of springs from friend), coilovers up front 450lb front ($200), 500lb rear. koni inserts as of now, trying to find a deal on bilstein hd insterts. All new bushings. Home made strut tower bar ($25 in materials). Probably some more stuff I'm forgetting.
I've also got a carrera gts front end I found in horrible condition for $75, I refinished it and it's ready to get painted. I found the euro lights for it and the junkyard for $20. I shaved my rear bumper. I have bbs lm reps which I got for $400. There's a lot more good deals I've gotten for my car. I also got my 85.5 for $150. I'll be happy to share more but I doubt people want to hear about it.
For the suspension, I have a 25.5mm front ($20 on cl) and 20mm rear sway ($75 shipped on rl), bilstein hd shocks ($150 for both brand new on cl) converted into coilovers for rear ($100 for sleeve and coilover kit with a couple sets of springs from friend), coilovers up front 450lb front ($200), 500lb rear. koni inserts as of now, trying to find a deal on bilstein hd insterts. All new bushings. Home made strut tower bar ($25 in materials). Probably some more stuff I'm forgetting.
I've also got a carrera gts front end I found in horrible condition for $75, I refinished it and it's ready to get painted. I found the euro lights for it and the junkyard for $20. I shaved my rear bumper. I have bbs lm reps which I got for $400. There's a lot more good deals I've gotten for my car. I also got my 85.5 for $150. I'll be happy to share more but I doubt people want to hear about it.
07-03-2014, 05:16 PM
#11
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For the whole cost question, I know the cost of the engine is highly variable, that's why I kept trying to ask about the cost of everything else not including the engine.
So if that Texas Performance Concepts kit costs $4000, I know I'll need that, plus a turbo trans, plus an engine. What are the other "key items" the kit doesn't include?
Is there a particular turbo trans that's better to get, by the code number on top or anything? If I get one without LSD, can I swap the LSD from my NA trans into it, or are they different/incompatible?
So if that Texas Performance Concepts kit costs $4000, I know I'll need that, plus a turbo trans, plus an engine. What are the other "key items" the kit doesn't include?
Is there a particular turbo trans that's better to get, by the code number on top or anything? If I get one without LSD, can I swap the LSD from my NA trans into it, or are they different/incompatible?
07-03-2014, 05:56 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
For the whole cost question, I know the cost of the engine is highly variable, that's why I kept trying to ask about the cost of everything else not including the engine.
So if that Texas Performance Concepts kit costs $4000, I know I'll need that, plus a turbo trans, plus an engine. What are the other "key items" the kit doesn't include?
Is there a particular turbo trans that's better to get, by the code number on top or anything? If I get one without LSD, can I swap the LSD from my NA trans into it, or are they different/incompatible?
So if that Texas Performance Concepts kit costs $4000, I know I'll need that, plus a turbo trans, plus an engine. What are the other "key items" the kit doesn't include?
Is there a particular turbo trans that's better to get, by the code number on top or anything? If I get one without LSD, can I swap the LSD from my NA trans into it, or are they different/incompatible?
07-04-2014, 12:48 PM
#14
A lot of good info here thanks everyone, we are planning this swap in my sons 951 as I have a nice running
LS6 out of my st1 race car. Here is a little inspiration for the swap watch this drag race down the Millers front straight with a ls3 swapped 951, He is a st1 car too (cough, cough) keep in mind my c5 z06 has 510 at the rear wheels.
http://youtu.be/KbSGee7wXqs
LS6 out of my st1 race car. Here is a little inspiration for the swap watch this drag race down the Millers front straight with a ls3 swapped 951, He is a st1 car too (cough, cough) keep in mind my c5 z06 has 510 at the rear wheels.
http://youtu.be/KbSGee7wXqs
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07-05-2014, 12:43 AM
#15
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A lot of good info here thanks everyone, we are planning this swap in my sons 951 as I have a nice running
LS6 out of my st1 race car. Here is a little inspiration for the swap watch this drag race down the Millers front straight with a ls3 swapped 951, He is a st1 car too (cough, cough) keep in mind my c5 z06 has 510 at the rear wheels.
http://youtu.be/KbSGee7wXqs
LS6 out of my st1 race car. Here is a little inspiration for the swap watch this drag race down the Millers front straight with a ls3 swapped 951, He is a st1 car too (cough, cough) keep in mind my c5 z06 has 510 at the rear wheels.
http://youtu.be/KbSGee7wXqs
At what point is "too much power" for a 944? I mean for the street, not racing. It's a light car, you can only give it so much tire, at some point the power is going to be so much that it's unusable and wasted. What is that point?
(I doubt I'll be able to afford to get close to that point, I'm just curious to know what it is.)