951Badger

Ok, this post was prompted by the post regarding Bruce Anderson's article where he warned about over pricing or the over value of our 951's. Someone made the challenge to find a low milage "excellent" condition 951 for what the "market" says it's worth. Not possible says that poster (and I, wholeheartedly agree).

Now about my car. Are you sitting down? I paid $18,000 for my 1988 951. After I purchased it, I put new tires on ($600) and did some servicing as the car had been sitting awhile. Total investment was around $20,000 (this includes the cost of having the car shipped).

Upon delivery it had just under 38,000 miles on the clock and is in PERFECT condition. This car is not quite concours but could be with virtually no work.

You can see the interior at <a href="http://www.biltform.com/interior" target="_blank">www.biltform.com/interior</a>

Exterior at
<a href="http://www.biltform.com/944TurboS" target="_blank">www.biltform.com/944TurboS</a>

This car has been perfectly uprated to S specifications including M030 suspension, swaybars, shocks, brakes, clutch, S wheels with painted center caps, etc. My mechanic commented that it was done perfectly. Just like from the factory (used factory parts).

So do YOU guys think I paid too much? I friggin' LOVE this car and it's basically a nearly brand new 951.

I'm curious. Do you think I could get at least $19,000 for it (if I were to sell, which I'm thinking NOT!)

Really would like to hear what the consensus is...

sweanders

[quote]Originally posted by 951Badger:
<strong>Ok, this post was prompted by the post regarding Bruce Anderson's article where he warned about over pricing or the over value of our 951's. Someone made the challenge to find a low milage "excellent" condition 951 for what the "market" says it's worth. Not possible says that poster (and I, wholeheartedly agree).

Now about my car. Are you sitting down? I paid $18,000 for my 1988 951. After I purchased it, I put new tires on ($600) and did some servicing as the car had been sitting awhile. Total investment was around $20,000 (this includes the cost of having the car shipped).

Upon delivery it had just under 38,000 miles on the clock and is in PERFECT condition. This car is not quite concours but could be with virtually no work.

You can see the interior at <a href="http://www.biltform.com/interior" target="_blank">www.biltform.com/interior</a>

Exterior at
<a href="http://www.biltform.com/944TurboS" target="_blank">www.biltform.com/944TurboS</a>

This car has been perfectly uprated to S specifications including M030 suspension, swaybars, shocks, brakes, clutch, S wheels with painted center caps, etc. My mechanic commented that it was done perfectly. Just like from the factory (used factory parts).

So do YOU guys think I paid too much? I friggin' LOVE this car and it's basically a nearly brand new 951.

I'm curious. Do you think I could get at least $19,000 for it (if I were to sell, which I'm thinking NOT!)

Really would like to hear what the consensus is...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tricky question if you could get that sort of money back, probably not.

I´ve realized that since few people and even less possible sports car buyers knows how to value 944´s. I reckon that every Porsche is a individual car and it is difficult to recognise the value if you are not in to them..

I would buy your car for $19,000, no problemo - if I had the money and not already have a car that I like. Looks very nice, love the color combo.

If a car was concours I wouldn´t want to buy it. How would I know if it worked if it hadn´t been used properly.

/Anders

Toronto86 944

$20,000 is almost 35,000 CDN dollars. 38,000 miles is 60,000 kms. Personally, I think that's a bit much. There's an 87 951 for sale in Toronto that has 75,000 kms and it's selling for $18,000 cdn, which is about 11,000 USD. Your car would probably go for about $22,000 up here. Then again, the car looks great and I heard that it's expensive to buy cars in the U.S. compared to Canada. Sharp looking 951 though , I like the interior.

Toronto86 944

$20,000 is almost 35,000 CDN dollars. 38,000 miles is 60,000 kms. Personally, I think that's a bit much. There's an 87 951 for sale in Toronto that has 75,000 kms and it's selling for $18,000 cdn, which is about 11,000 USD. Your car would probably go for about $22,000 up here. Then again, the car looks great and I heard that it's expensive to buy cars in the U.S. compared to Canada. Sharp looking 951 though , I like the interior.

Paul C 944

I would think it would be hard to get that much money for it.Not impossible. I would say that looking around 12-15 k will get you a nice turbo,and 10 percent for low milage,and check maintenance records,clutch ,was it replaced,miles are low but the age could make it necessary to replace in the near future,same with water pump and belt and rubber seal/hoses etc....

All of these things need to be taken in to account when figureing out the price!HTH

Gundo

I paid $12,500 for my 86 951 with 74K miles - which was a bit higher than market at the time (last year)

Yes, your car seems to be well over the high-end of valuations. That is fine, as long as you are happy with the car, who cares what others think.

One issue I have run up against is the cost of additional mileage.

For example, if you run your pristine ride up to say, 75K miles (37K away) you'll see the value fall to the $12k to $13k range. At that rate, you are paying nearly $0.22/mile to drive it.

And I hate to say it, but that timing belt is getting a bit aged, might be worth changing if you haven't already.

My 2 cents

951Badger

Belts are all done. All rubber, hoses, etc. have been checked. The car was maintained in a climate controlled garage and driven occasionally to keep fluids and such circulating and rubber fresh.

wjk_glynn

Hi,

Just some comments.

I haven't read the comments by Bruce on the 951 sales (yet) but in defense of Bruce, he says (in previous articles) that his price guides are based on actual sales.

The sales prices are compiled over a year and then published annually. April 2002 was the last 924/944/968 update (for sales year 2001) in Excellence and he lists '88 951S sales ranged from ~$8K to ~$13K for poor to excellent cars.

But Bruce always has made allowances for the "beyond excellent" car. They exist and if your car is one of those, then a premium was justified. Was a $5K premium warrented? I don't really know but I do know that your car looks gorgeous in the photos.

I know from personal experience that when I was shopping for a 944 in Q1/Q2 of 2001, there was a nice 70K mile '88 951S for sale in the SF Bay Area at California Motorsport, Sunnyvale. It was a consignment car and the owner wanted $22K. The sales guy (who I've had some contact with over the years) told me that there was at least 10 real offers in the $15K range but the owner wouldn't budge. After several months, the car was sold to the owners neighbour for $14K. I know this is a sample of one but it does fall in line with Bruce's numbers.

I bought a '91 944S2 (the last year, bridge spoiler, yada yada) and payed $12K (good to excellent price according to Bruce). I've put another ~$5K into it (Cup rims, LSD, a $2,600 service, etc) and the car is in really great condition. Would I make the money back? No. Thats life. I probably would get $11-12K for it.

Right now on Ebay there is a time-warp 951S for sale ( <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1863627748" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1863627748</a> ) and at the time of writing, its bidding is $15,200 and the reserve is not met. This is a very interesting auction.

Don't sweat too much about the value of the car. You obviously love it and if you under/over payed a few grand for it, so what. Life is short. Just enjoy the car. Drive it. Its a beauty.

Karl.

rage2

I paid $11,500us for my 87 951 with 30,000 miles on the clock... that was 9 years ago =). It was in near perfect condition at the time.

I bought the car in the middle of winter, the car was listed for about 3 months with no solid offers other than mine. The owner was transferred to a different country and needed to sell his car immediately. The company he worked for made up the difference in sale price vs appraised value (car was appraised at $18,000us).

jgk62

How do they come up with the 'actual sales figures'? Is it the amount you write down when you go to register the car?

If that's the case, i'm sure alot of those figures are low, due to the buyer and seller agreeing to write down a lower sales price on the title, so that the buyer will save money on sales tax when they register it.

Or so I've heard...

AndyK

Your car is a sweetie! Perfect inside and out, and I love the colors too!

Thing is, some buyers WILL pay for the low miles, and minty freshness. If I were buying a Turbo, and the going rate was $15k, and for that you get a 90k mile, semi worn paint, dash cracks, etc car, I would gladly pay up to get one like yours. Would I pay another $4k? Not sure. But if having a brand-new example was important to me, I would pay more. If you think about it, buying a $15k car and THEN having it painted would bring it up to $18k...

wjk_glynn

[quote]Originally posted by jgk62:
<strong>How do they come up with the 'actual sales figures'?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good qustion. I know one source is reader's reports to Excellence (also published in each issue). When I bought my car, I sent in details of my cars condition and agreed sales price.

Karl.

SoCal Driver

In 1985 I paid $13,700 for an 83 944 with less that 45,000 miles including a one year mechanical warranty which I later used to have the clutch replaced. I also forced the dealer to put new tires on it.

With all of the maintenence, both planned and unplanned, and the purchase price I figure this daily driver has cost me a little less than a grand a year.

I have no plans to ever sell this car.

True it's current market price is less than $3,000 with some examples in better cosmetic shape than my fading and blistered paint. I'm tempted to buy one as it is cheaper than having the body work and painting done on my car.

Are these fair prices? How bad do you want one? Would you sell your current 9xx Wet Head (9WH) to buy the other? I wouldn't.

Can you scan and average 9WH prices across the country and figure an average price? Yes.

Would you pay more? If you want one that bad.

Would you pay less? Sure!

I was hooked in 1978 when I bought a 924. Underpowered but get that sucker up to speed and do a few curves and you get this ear to ear smile on your face that never goes away.

This 944 is my third 9WH.

oi-punx

Good cars can be found at a relatively low cost, but at what price? The time spent looking and calling and making long distance trips to see cars can add up. Sometimes it's worth it to pay more to save all the time and hassle.

I paid $5500 for my '84 944 at the end of '99. It had 74k miles, a brand new paint job in the factory color and needed absolutely nothing. I bought it from a former employer and thus didn't have to spend a minute searching. I also knew the car in and out before I bought it.

6 months ago I found an original owner bone stock '87 951 with only 75k miles on the clock. The car needed a clutch immediately and belts/pump within the next 7k miles or so. He didn't feel like paying for it because he rarely drove it. I left him numerous messages the first day the ad was run and finally got in contact with him later that afternoon. A deal was made and I made him an offer for the car sight unseen. A couple of weeks later I was on my way down to San Diego (Carlsbad) to pick it up.

The car was exactly how he described. Body was good, a few dings from over the years, but nothing a good $200 in paintless dent removal took care of, minimal maintenance records, minor paint fading that some 3M hand glaze fixed, flawless full leather interior, took kit, gas gloves, air compressor, etc. etc. I paid $4,800 for the car plus the clutch job. I looked for months for until I found this one. His ad read "1987 944", nowhere was the word Turbo written. That's probably why it didn't sell sooner.

After I got the 951 I sold the N/A for $4150 with 99k on the clock. It needed some mechanical things (cam seal, motor mounts, etc) but otherwise was in stunning condition. Both sales reports on my cars can be seen in the August 2002 Excellence issue.

On a side note, A friend just picked up a MINT, flawless '94 968 coupe (Guards/Black) with only 55k on it for $15k. I sent him the link several weeks ago and after two weeks the seller finally responded to emails. I'm not sure, but I believe that is under market value, at least for the bay area.

icat

[quote]Originally posted by oi-punx:
<strong> I paid $4,800 for the car plus the clutch job. I looked for months for until I found this one. His ad read "1987 944", nowhere was the word Turbo written. That's probably why it didn't sell sooner.

After I got the 951 I sold the N/A for $4150 with 99k on the clock. It needed some mechanical things (cam seal, motor mounts, etc) but otherwise was in stunning condition. Both sales reports on my cars can be seen in the August 2002 Excellence issue. </strong><hr></blockquote>

This is one of the reasons the numbers are so erratic. If a buyer "scores" and purchases a car at below market value, then the "average" sales price for all cars is driven down.

There is NO set price. The cars are worth whatever you are willing to pay for them. Once you've made the purchase, then move on. The car's value will increase or decrease as time goes on, but nothing will ever change what you paid for it. The "future" value will be whatever the next guy thinks it's worth.

Here's something to keep in mind. There were only so many of our cars produced. As the units available for sale decline due to wrecks, racing, etc. Then our car's values will increase. This isn't going to happen anytime soon mind you. But most of us look at these cars as collectables - not collector items, but collectables. In other words, we justify the expense of maintaining them as a reward for having a rare car. I see Mustangs and Corvettes everyday. The only 944's I see are generally in my garage.

I've heard others say that our cars will never be collector items because of the number made. That's BS. There were a heck of a lot more Ford Model T's made than there were 951's - but those are collector cars. Eventually, the number of units remaining will decrease and the sales price will increase. It's simple supply and demand. We just need to wait. Our turn is coming!