How to turn $50k into $15k - My 951 restoration *UPDATED WITH PHOTOS 01/18/11*
03-02-2010, 03:18 PM
#32
Drifting
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As a car guy (although not a 944 guy - yet), I'm going to respectfully disagree with that on a whole bunch of levels.
Aftermarket parts are superior in many ways (performance, safety, reliability) for many older cars.
Batteries, lighting, electronics, electrical, ignition, suspension parts, interior components, wheels, tires, glass, engine components and, yes, even brakes can be superior in the aftermarket (even for street) depending on what you're building.
I've done several old Mustangs and, trust me, unless you're building a strictly oem car - nearly every part of the damn thing is better aftermarket than oem.
Maybe this isn't true for the 944's but it is very true for many, if not the majority, of cars being restored these days.
Aftermarket parts are superior in many ways (performance, safety, reliability) for many older cars.
Batteries, lighting, electronics, electrical, ignition, suspension parts, interior components, wheels, tires, glass, engine components and, yes, even brakes can be superior in the aftermarket (even for street) depending on what you're building.
I've done several old Mustangs and, trust me, unless you're building a strictly oem car - nearly every part of the damn thing is better aftermarket than oem.
Maybe this isn't true for the 944's but it is very true for many, if not the majority, of cars being restored these days.
One area I would not go Genuine Porsche is the brake pads. They don't have a good initial bite to them. I would go with EBC redstuff pads.
03-02-2010, 03:39 PM
#33
Race Car
All the above and performance. I am not so sure about HP gains, many people find the aftermarket to be poor quality, performance, and sound with a detriment to hp. There are some super expensive stuff out there and I'm not sure anyone has quality hp(dyno) results proving their worth beyond the manufacturers hype. Lots of opinion on this and I would encourage a LOT of research. Stock is hard to beat in many cases.
03-02-2010, 04:02 PM
#35
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All the above and performance. I am not so sure about HP gains, many people find the aftermarket to be poor quality, performance, and sound with a detriment to hp. There are some super expensive stuff out there and I'm not sure anyone has quality hp(dyno) results proving their worth beyond the manufacturers hype. Lots of opinion on this and I would encourage a LOT of research. Stock is hard to beat in many cases.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q43jKnEoRlI
03-02-2010, 05:26 PM
#36
Pro
Thread Starter
I'm going to call you on that one. Developing horsepower is a prettty straightforward process and the lower retsriction of high-performance, aftermarket exhaust systems is a pretty reliable way to increase hp.
I've personally been involveed with several dynos (including Porsches) and I have never seen a high-quality, performance exhaust system fail to increase hp. In fact, I cannot think of a single car I have ever owned that couldn't benefit from at least some exhaust mods . Now sound quality and emissions are different factors, but straight performance/hp upgrades are not that hard to get.
I've personally been involveed with several dynos (including Porsches) and I have never seen a high-quality, performance exhaust system fail to increase hp. In fact, I cannot think of a single car I have ever owned that couldn't benefit from at least some exhaust mods . Now sound quality and emissions are different factors, but straight performance/hp upgrades are not that hard to get.
03-02-2010, 05:44 PM
#37
Race Car
the later model 944 cars have about as good an exhaust as you can get. 944CS nailed it, the most gains come from the removal of the cat. After that it's all compramise. B&B are arguably one of the lowest quality pieces you can find. You can always change the sound, and look if thats what you want, and as 944CS said, it all depends on your objective.
The 944/951 is the one car that has a pretty good exhaust system from the factory, other Porsche models are not as well laid out as the 944/51 and gains can be had.
Conventional wisdom would have you think that a 944/51 would respond as well to a quality exhaust as any other car, but it's not so. The marketing hype is not true(seldom is for Porsche cars). Some of the stuff out there is very pretty(GHL headers are gorgous) and may sound different, but the performance and fitment of the stock is hard to beat. The quality of the stainless is not the best(as 944CS states) but it sure does work well. I would definitly look into this further if you are changing from stock - you mentioned Fabspeed which is OK stuff, but there aren't a hole heck of a lot of options and the reason is that the stock set up is hard to beat.
It took me a while to believe it too.
The 944/951 is the one car that has a pretty good exhaust system from the factory, other Porsche models are not as well laid out as the 944/51 and gains can be had.
Conventional wisdom would have you think that a 944/51 would respond as well to a quality exhaust as any other car, but it's not so. The marketing hype is not true(seldom is for Porsche cars). Some of the stuff out there is very pretty(GHL headers are gorgous) and may sound different, but the performance and fitment of the stock is hard to beat. The quality of the stainless is not the best(as 944CS states) but it sure does work well. I would definitly look into this further if you are changing from stock - you mentioned Fabspeed which is OK stuff, but there aren't a hole heck of a lot of options and the reason is that the stock set up is hard to beat.
It took me a while to believe it too.
03-03-2010, 06:28 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Sorry but the stock exhaust is not up to standard compared to a custom product. Not sure if you've cut into the part just about where the downpipe straightens out but it shrinks down to a very small (by comparison) aperture. Plus the double wall thing weighs a ton. Why do you think people are putting 3", 4", and even 5" exhausts on their modified cars? It's not all about childish bragging rights. More flow = better.
03-03-2010, 09:17 AM
#40
Race Car
Bigger pipes do not = better flow or power. a slight restriction increases velocity. The factory used the stock exhaust on their 944 cup cars that were making over 300hp with only the cat removed. If there is a volumetric increase in displacement, I could see the merit in larger tubing. Turbo charging behaves altogether differently than a NA as far as airflow in and out of the motor also. The 944/51 is the one car where exhaust was not a compramise in production like most every other car made. I think 944CS really put it well in his post. Materials and sound can be improved upon, but the factory achieved optimum performance.
03-03-2010, 01:32 PM
#41
Pro
Thread Starter
Bigger pipes do not = better flow or power. a slight restriction increases velocity. The factory used the stock exhaust on their 944 cup cars that were making over 300hp with only the cat removed. If there is a volumetric increase in displacement, I could see the merit in larger tubing. Turbo charging behaves altogether differently than a NA as far as airflow in and out of the motor also. The 944/51 is the one car where exhaust was not a compramise in production like most every other car made. I think 944CS really put it well in his post. Materials and sound can be improved upon, but the factory achieved optimum performance.
Statements like "the 944/51 is the one car where exhaust was not a compramise in production like most every other car made" and "the factory achieved optimum performance" and "the stock exhaust on these cars is as good as it gets and cannot be improved on" are just unrealistic. Porsche made LOTS of compromises on these cars. These were good cars when they were in production. But they were by no measure the best performing cars available. Hell, they weren't even the best Porsches available.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the oem exhaust is bad. It may even be better than most. But I wouldn't wager a dime on the statement that "the stock exhaust on these cars is as good as it gets and cannot be improved on".
That just makes zero sense in my opinion (but I appreciate hearing your thoughts, even if I disagree).
03-03-2010, 01:35 PM
#42
Pro
Thread Starter
03-03-2010, 01:37 PM
#43
Pro
Thread Starter
03-03-2010, 01:52 PM
#44
Race Car
No problem. I worked with the factory on the 944 cup cars(crew) and had long discussions about it with various engineers well into the 90s on other factory backed race cars as well(911/930, etc). Although no advancements have been made in exhaust technology since the 1920s I suspect there are quality pieces available for your objectives and I think what you are doing to the car is outstanding. If it were mine, I would do the GHL headers (if you can find them) and the fabspeed on back with custom stuff in between around the turbo.
03-03-2010, 02:12 PM
#45
Pro
Thread Starter
No problem. I worked with the factory on the 944 cup cars(crew) and had long discussions about it with various engineers well into the 90s on other factory backed race cars as well(911/930, etc). Although no advancements have been made in exhaust technology since the 1920s I suspect there are quality pieces available for your objectives and I think what you are doing to the car is outstanding. If it were mine, I would do the GHL headers (if you can find them) and the fabspeed on back with custom stuff in between around the turbo.