Strut Brace test methodology
12-13-2002, 02:38 PM
#91
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>I am not, nor have I been an academic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't get me wrong. Anybody can get caught up in the academics of something. I know only too well on a personal level.
[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>I do not have, nor am I thinking of buying a strut brace. It will be at least a year before I'll even be able to start taking my car to the track, if ever.
The original question was to find a good low cost test to see how much movement there is in the shock towers. I was trying to help others to do this in a way that will give meaningful data. I find it interesting so I am willing to invest time and rescources into this, but at the end of the day I'd hand over they data and go "Have fun kids"...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, it is interesting from an academic point of view. Learning for the sake of learning is not in itself a bad thing. You never know what tidbit of information may come in quite handy in the future. Far be it from me to stand in the way of doers. I just don't think whatever you come up with will solve anything in this discussion. That's just IMHO given the personalities and the discussions involved.
[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>But regardless the tests will give us data, then if we can determine how much flex is an issue we can compare the two as we will already have the data.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah yes, how much flex is an issue? And how big an issue? And if we can ever quantify it, will it ever truly mean anything to anyone here? That is my point. I'm not dissing what you want to do. But, before for you go down that bunny trail, ask yourself why you are doing it. Ultimately I don't think it will resolve anything in this discussion. To be honest, for me the most interesting part of the testing you propose would be to see just how accurate the "Sharpie" method is. My guess is that it would be close enough to be valid, but that's my monkey guess.
The bottom line is that the towers do indeed flex. I don't have numbers, but I'll guarantee that the KLA bar stiffens the chassis. Whether it's worth it or not is a value judgement. Whether it will improve one person's lap times or another is a red herring. For one thing, different suspension set-ups may lead to different results where lap times are involved. It stiffens the chassis, which will make the suspension more predictable and consistent, especially for those who like to tinker with their suspension.
<strong>I am not, nor have I been an academic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't get me wrong. Anybody can get caught up in the academics of something. I know only too well on a personal level.
[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>I do not have, nor am I thinking of buying a strut brace. It will be at least a year before I'll even be able to start taking my car to the track, if ever.
The original question was to find a good low cost test to see how much movement there is in the shock towers. I was trying to help others to do this in a way that will give meaningful data. I find it interesting so I am willing to invest time and rescources into this, but at the end of the day I'd hand over they data and go "Have fun kids"...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, it is interesting from an academic point of view. Learning for the sake of learning is not in itself a bad thing. You never know what tidbit of information may come in quite handy in the future. Far be it from me to stand in the way of doers. I just don't think whatever you come up with will solve anything in this discussion. That's just IMHO given the personalities and the discussions involved.
[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>But regardless the tests will give us data, then if we can determine how much flex is an issue we can compare the two as we will already have the data.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah yes, how much flex is an issue? And how big an issue? And if we can ever quantify it, will it ever truly mean anything to anyone here? That is my point. I'm not dissing what you want to do. But, before for you go down that bunny trail, ask yourself why you are doing it. Ultimately I don't think it will resolve anything in this discussion. To be honest, for me the most interesting part of the testing you propose would be to see just how accurate the "Sharpie" method is. My guess is that it would be close enough to be valid, but that's my monkey guess.
The bottom line is that the towers do indeed flex. I don't have numbers, but I'll guarantee that the KLA bar stiffens the chassis. Whether it's worth it or not is a value judgement. Whether it will improve one person's lap times or another is a red herring. For one thing, different suspension set-ups may lead to different results where lap times are involved. It stiffens the chassis, which will make the suspension more predictable and consistent, especially for those who like to tinker with their suspension.
12-13-2002, 02:58 PM
#92
Unaffiliated
Great thread, guys! I kind of feel responsible as I posted the question "Can we prove if strut braces do anything?" when the new bar was introduced. It's gone way beyond my expectations..but I think we have a simple answer for a simple question. Yea, they move. Yea, a brace helps. Maybe not the ideal setup, but it helps stiffen the chassis and fits the price/mods requirements for the average user. Not only will it keep my Camber settings where I set them, but think of long term effects..less flexing will keep the car tight, longer! I don't have a good enough feel for the car to feel the difference, but I feel better knowing it is there.
I doubt anyone will proclaim "strut braces don't do anything" anymore..and thats a step in the right direction.
Thanks for that..
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I doubt anyone will proclaim "strut braces don't do anything" anymore..and thats a step in the right direction.
Thanks for that..
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-13-2002, 03:00 PM
#93
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Personally I I think that a strut brace has to help, but with how stiff our cars are now, very few people will push the car to that extreme to get a whole lot of benefit in it. The benefit will come in those "Oh shi..." occasions. But at the cost it's worth it.
Me I'm just a guy that likes to help, and in this area I hapen to have the experience and rescources to add worth.
Seems that there is not enough other people that want to fill in the missing pieces. But oh-well.
If this new job like thing comes through I'll have the time and money. Ill get me a nicer 944 and do it on my own then. Don't hold your breath.
Me I'm just a guy that likes to help, and in this area I hapen to have the experience and rescources to add worth.
Seems that there is not enough other people that want to fill in the missing pieces. But oh-well.
If this new job like thing comes through I'll have the time and money. Ill get me a nicer 944 and do it on my own then. Don't hold your breath.
12-13-2002, 08:09 PM
#95
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: CT
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SidViscous:
[QB]Geo
I do not have, nor am I thinking of buying a strut brace. It will be at least a year before I'll even be able to start taking my car to the track, if ever.
I know this is OT for this thread, but SidV - please stop denying youself! You're in NH, location of a PCA region filled with truly nice people who run terrific, friendly, no pressure DE events. When you do one, you'll be asking yourself why you haven't done one sooner. Don't worry about your car or its performance, as long as it passes tech inspection it'll be fine. After all, driving our cars is what it's all about, isn't it?
See you at the track, I hope -
Matt
[QB]Geo
I do not have, nor am I thinking of buying a strut brace. It will be at least a year before I'll even be able to start taking my car to the track, if ever.
I know this is OT for this thread, but SidV - please stop denying youself! You're in NH, location of a PCA region filled with truly nice people who run terrific, friendly, no pressure DE events. When you do one, you'll be asking yourself why you haven't done one sooner. Don't worry about your car or its performance, as long as it passes tech inspection it'll be fine. After all, driving our cars is what it's all about, isn't it?
See you at the track, I hope -
Matt
12-13-2002, 08:19 PM
#96
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Trust me I'd love to go to the track.
When you have to borrow money so you can continue to eat till the next payday, racing the Porsche isn't high on your list.
Someday I'll get there, but to be honest it is not in the kind of condition I would want to go out and race right now (motor mounts, clunking suspension, concerned about the clutch, etc etc). Not to mention I can't afford to bend it.
When you have to borrow money so you can continue to eat till the next payday, racing the Porsche isn't high on your list.
Someday I'll get there, but to be honest it is not in the kind of condition I would want to go out and race right now (motor mounts, clunking suspension, concerned about the clutch, etc etc). Not to mention I can't afford to bend it.
12-13-2002, 08:56 PM
#97
Former Sponsor
To address the issue of heim joint rotation.....
Ken and I ran another, albiet, un-scientific test tonight. We took my car, put a thin layer of modeling clay between the joint and the bracket. Theory being, any rotation between the joint bearing and the joint will crack/displace the clay. Took the car out and made a few hard left/right full lock turns in a parking lot. Came back and the clay was in the same position it was when applied. I left the clay in place, drove home. Approx. 10 miles. Checked after I got home, still I observed no change in the clay. The clay is still on the car. I'll check again after driving the car tomorrow. I'm convinced, the STB does not have any rotation. The bar transferring the load between the strut towers is sufficient to resist movement. I know this is not a controlled environment test. Just me and Ken proving to ourselves. I invite a 3rd party in the neighborhood to check out what we've done for themselves(sh944 are you here?).
Ken and I ran another, albiet, un-scientific test tonight. We took my car, put a thin layer of modeling clay between the joint and the bracket. Theory being, any rotation between the joint bearing and the joint will crack/displace the clay. Took the car out and made a few hard left/right full lock turns in a parking lot. Came back and the clay was in the same position it was when applied. I left the clay in place, drove home. Approx. 10 miles. Checked after I got home, still I observed no change in the clay. The clay is still on the car. I'll check again after driving the car tomorrow. I'm convinced, the STB does not have any rotation. The bar transferring the load between the strut towers is sufficient to resist movement. I know this is not a controlled environment test. Just me and Ken proving to ourselves. I invite a 3rd party in the neighborhood to check out what we've done for themselves(sh944 are you here?).
12-16-2002, 12:21 AM
#98
I am in KC, just got back from a road trip to Nashville this weekend, and am driving to NYC next weekend, will be back Christmas Day. I will probably be booked up until after New Years Day, but after that, if you'd like to try and get together for a day of Porsche fun, under the guise of "scientifically testing the STB", and maybe "testing the effect of the STB after eating a full dinner and talking about Porsches", I would be more than happy to try and meet up with you. Maybe we could get in touch with other Tulsa/Wichita area Porsche owners and have some real fun...
Regards, ...Scott
Regards, ...Scott
12-16-2002, 12:20 PM
#99
Slevy951 wrote:
[quote] Took the car out and made a few hard left/right full lock turns in a parking lot. Came back and the clay was in the same position it was when applied. I left the clay in place, drove home. Approx. 10 miles. Checked after I got home, still I observed no change in the clay. The clay is still on the car. I'll check again after driving the car tomorrow. I'm convinced, the STB does not have any rotation <hr></blockquote>
Wow, that's surprising. If I can get the digital camera I'll take pics of the places on my Weltmeister STB that show where the heim joints contact the base due to rotation. The Heim joints are oriented 90 degrees from the way you all have them and are connected in double shear. You can see where the eye on the joint has made contact with the bracket due to rotation.
In actuallity it looks like Welt designed their base they way they did in an effort to limit rotation at the joint, since they can only rotate up or down about 10 to 20 degrees each way before being limited by the bracket.
[quote] Took the car out and made a few hard left/right full lock turns in a parking lot. Came back and the clay was in the same position it was when applied. I left the clay in place, drove home. Approx. 10 miles. Checked after I got home, still I observed no change in the clay. The clay is still on the car. I'll check again after driving the car tomorrow. I'm convinced, the STB does not have any rotation <hr></blockquote>
Wow, that's surprising. If I can get the digital camera I'll take pics of the places on my Weltmeister STB that show where the heim joints contact the base due to rotation. The Heim joints are oriented 90 degrees from the way you all have them and are connected in double shear. You can see where the eye on the joint has made contact with the bracket due to rotation.In actuallity it looks like Welt designed their base they way they did in an effort to limit rotation at the joint, since they can only rotate up or down about 10 to 20 degrees each way before being limited by the bracket.
02-28-2003, 01:21 AM
#100
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Okay who brought this thread back to life!
oh right me....
Anyways. New job with old company. How does this relate here. Well They are a manufacturer of fiber optic gauges. So if anyone is interested in this maybe this summer I can get the equipment together and we can put a final end to his arguement.
oh right me....
Anyways. New job with old company. How does this relate here. Well They are a manufacturer of fiber optic gauges. So if anyone is interested in this maybe this summer I can get the equipment together and we can put a final end to his arguement.
05-03-2003, 10:21 AM
#101
Advanced
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I'm going to resurrect this old post. Somebody asked a question about strut braces today and they were directed to this old post. I've just read all seven pages and found it fascinating. I'm a little disappointed, though. Did anybody ever do the $50K tests?
08-21-2003, 12:59 PM
#102
Unaffiliated
bump-bump-de-bump!
08-21-2003, 01:23 PM
#103
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Test wouldn't be 50K more like $500.
If people want to get involved I'd be happy to get ahold of some equipment.
If people want to get involved I'd be happy to get ahold of some equipment.
08-21-2003, 01:53 PM
#105
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Thanks Scott. We just need someone to offer up a car. No damage to the car or anything. Just install and run around a track for a few laps.
