Strut Brace test methodology
12-12-2002, 04:56 PM
#76
Race Director
If you guys want I can try to do a back to back lap time test and driver feel test with my race car at my next race. Sure it not the KLA bar, but may provide usefull if I can run laps consistant enough to see the difference. I am not Michael Schumacher I can only do my best.
Of course I also need to rebuild the motor in my car first.
Next race is planned for Jan 4th & 5th...
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
Of course I also need to rebuild the motor in my car first.
Next race is planned for Jan 4th & 5th...
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
12-12-2002, 05:03 PM
#77
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
slevy
I can't garuntee much at the moment as no-one has come up with the other things we need.
However if it does come to fruition we may want to do that. Keeping in mind.
1. The strut will have to be installed in the car, so it won't be in pristine condition afterwards.
2. It would only be secondark data as we won't be installing stain gauges on it so all we can do is install it and take acceleromter data as we corner. Usefull data but not our primary focus.
If we just want to install different styles of strut braces (hiem rigid none) and take accelerometer data than all we need is the strut braces, a car and a course. I can get all the other equipment.
I can't garuntee much at the moment as no-one has come up with the other things we need.
However if it does come to fruition we may want to do that. Keeping in mind.
1. The strut will have to be installed in the car, so it won't be in pristine condition afterwards.
2. It would only be secondark data as we won't be installing stain gauges on it so all we can do is install it and take acceleromter data as we corner. Usefull data but not our primary focus.
If we just want to install different styles of strut braces (hiem rigid none) and take accelerometer data than all we need is the strut braces, a car and a course. I can get all the other equipment.
12-12-2002, 05:08 PM
#78
Former Sponsor
[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>slevy
I can't garuntee much at the moment as no-one has come up with the other things we need.
However if it does come to fruition we may want to do that. Keeping in mind.
1. The strut will have to be installed in the car, so it won't be in pristine condition afterwards.
2. It would only be secondark data as we won't be installing stain gauges on it so all we can do is install it and take acceleromter data as we corner. Usefull data but not our primary focus.
If we just want to install different styles of strut braces (hiem rigid none) and take accelerometer data than all we need is the strut braces, a car and a course. I can get all the other equipment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
#1-Understood.
#2-Unfortunate, but if thats the best we can do. At least we'd know the difference between none and some.....
<strong>slevy
I can't garuntee much at the moment as no-one has come up with the other things we need.
However if it does come to fruition we may want to do that. Keeping in mind.
1. The strut will have to be installed in the car, so it won't be in pristine condition afterwards.
2. It would only be secondark data as we won't be installing stain gauges on it so all we can do is install it and take acceleromter data as we corner. Usefull data but not our primary focus.
If we just want to install different styles of strut braces (hiem rigid none) and take accelerometer data than all we need is the strut braces, a car and a course. I can get all the other equipment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
#1-Understood.
#2-Unfortunate, but if thats the best we can do. At least we'd know the difference between none and some.....
12-12-2002, 05:22 PM
#79
I think you missed the one toward the inside.
My point was that you could produce something like it using the base plate design you all have come up with. I feel the base plate you have is superior as it is held by four fasteners on each strut tower versus two.
I feel the Camber Truss cross bar design is far superior on the other hand. They have it designed to ride as close to the top of the intake as possible for maximum hood clearance, which you all have already stated is an issue with your bar. The cross bar for the turbo and S2 models has a slight bend in it to facilitate better clearance. The Weltmeister cross bar is designed the same way.
I am sure there are reasons why their bar is so much more than yours, most of which is probably marketing BS.
If you all can make a similar bar for less using your base plate design, great. If you can't, fine.
12-12-2002, 05:26 PM
#80
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
What we really need is a two piece strut brace so we can install a displacement transducer. That will give us two things.
1. Baseline data on handling without.
2. Movement of the strut towers that we can give to a geek to do ugly stuff with it and figure out suspension geometry changes.
Then with your helpful offer we can load the car up and do runs taking just accelerometer data and videos which will allow us to see if the car can handle the corner better or not with video showing the lateral acceleration on the vehicle throughout the turn.
For those of you who maybe reeling at all this babble. What we will have is full color video of a car taking a corner (From inside the car). with g#'s of the car through the entire corner this # will be embedded into the video frame, and we can also take multiple data points per frame. We can also measure lateral and linear acceleration and get some decent braking numbers as well (Just means two acceleromters, no problem there).
If it's a nice sunny day we can probably run it at 125 frames per sec, 250 would be a stretch without serious lighting. More lighting even than an Iceshark kit.
By the way Ice. While in this frame of mind, I did find a way to get real #'s on light pattern #'s and luminousity of your kit compared to stock, or any other setup. If you want details e-mail me. Wouldn't be wicked exspensive, few hundred. Probably more than you want to spend but thought I'd offer.
1. Baseline data on handling without.
2. Movement of the strut towers that we can give to a geek to do ugly stuff with it and figure out suspension geometry changes.
Then with your helpful offer we can load the car up and do runs taking just accelerometer data and videos which will allow us to see if the car can handle the corner better or not with video showing the lateral acceleration on the vehicle throughout the turn.
For those of you who maybe reeling at all this babble. What we will have is full color video of a car taking a corner (From inside the car). with g#'s of the car through the entire corner this # will be embedded into the video frame, and we can also take multiple data points per frame. We can also measure lateral and linear acceleration and get some decent braking numbers as well (Just means two acceleromters, no problem there).
If it's a nice sunny day we can probably run it at 125 frames per sec, 250 would be a stretch without serious lighting. More lighting even than an Iceshark kit.
By the way Ice. While in this frame of mind, I did find a way to get real #'s on light pattern #'s and luminousity of your kit compared to stock, or any other setup. If you want details e-mail me. Wouldn't be wicked exspensive, few hundred. Probably more than you want to spend but thought I'd offer.
12-12-2002, 11:28 PM
#82
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All I'm saying is that I have a very nice and pretty Brey Krause strut tower brace that I bought before I knew any better but I don't have any idea if it makes me any faster on the track. I finished 2nd last weekend in the club race at Roebling to an S2 and I think he doesn't have a brace on his car.
So what if things move around - will it make you faster if they don't?
So what if things move around - will it make you faster if they don't?
12-13-2002, 02:10 AM
#83
It's a matter of predictability. I don't presume to tell you what works or what doesn't, Doug, as I have a lot of respect for your reputation and experience. But speaking strictly for myself, limiting the number of variables makes it easier to predict how my car will behave, thereby allowing me to push it closer to the 'limit' and ideally a faster time is the result. Given the amount of interest this thread has generated, I doubt I am the only one who feels this way.
I am not at all sure there is a consensus as to whether or not a STB is effective. I think we have had a lot of good discussion as to the merits of the idea, and some good ideas as to how to test the effects. Ideally, we will continue to pursue this until we have actually produced a scientifically valid test that proves/disproves the concept. The reality of the situation is that my personal driving skills don't permit me to replicate any particular test to a degree that meaningful data could be accumulated. I am quite happy to have two consecutive laps where I drive smoothly and master the basic "slow in/fast out", hit my braking points consistently and just not look like a clown on the track. And again, I bet I am not the only one in that boat.
So why the big deal? Two reasons... first may well be called the "placebo effect" but its just as valid a reason for bolting on a STB as any real, measured reason. I "feel" a difference in my car with it, and that feeling gives me more confidence in my ability to drive closer to the limits (not that I have had a chance to do so since putting the STB on). The second is a matter of pride of ownership. Its something I did to make the car more a reflection of what I want it to be, and I am happy with the result. I would love to quantify it so that I can "prove" how smart I was for putting it on the car, and I honestly feel that the right test would indeed validate it. Would it be enough of a difference to make me the next Andretti... no. But it sure can't hurt.
I am still game to participate in a real world quantifiable test.
Regards, ...Scott
I am not at all sure there is a consensus as to whether or not a STB is effective. I think we have had a lot of good discussion as to the merits of the idea, and some good ideas as to how to test the effects. Ideally, we will continue to pursue this until we have actually produced a scientifically valid test that proves/disproves the concept. The reality of the situation is that my personal driving skills don't permit me to replicate any particular test to a degree that meaningful data could be accumulated. I am quite happy to have two consecutive laps where I drive smoothly and master the basic "slow in/fast out", hit my braking points consistently and just not look like a clown on the track. And again, I bet I am not the only one in that boat.
So why the big deal? Two reasons... first may well be called the "placebo effect" but its just as valid a reason for bolting on a STB as any real, measured reason. I "feel" a difference in my car with it, and that feeling gives me more confidence in my ability to drive closer to the limits (not that I have had a chance to do so since putting the STB on). The second is a matter of pride of ownership. Its something I did to make the car more a reflection of what I want it to be, and I am happy with the result. I would love to quantify it so that I can "prove" how smart I was for putting it on the car, and I honestly feel that the right test would indeed validate it. Would it be enough of a difference to make me the next Andretti... no. But it sure can't hurt.
I am still game to participate in a real world quantifiable test.
Regards, ...Scott
12-13-2002, 02:47 AM
#84
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by sh944:
<strong>It's a matter of predictability. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Bingo! Full points to Scott.
I'm sorry guys, but 98% of this discussion is rather silly.
1) As for whether adding an STB will make your car faster or not (with this one single change) is not the point. Once again, and STB is used to stiffen the chassis so that other suspension adjustments are more predictable and reliable.
You can spend all you like on suspension components, but if the chassis is flexing, you aren't getting your money's worth out of those more glamorous mods.
The only issue I've seen brought up in this discussion that is particularly interesting is the fact that if you are running rubber suspension bushings, you will still get a fair amount of slop in your suspension.
2) Sid, I'm sorry, but I see your entire discussion as academics run amok. What will all the testing you propose to do actually tell us that is truly useful beyond what has been learned from the testing that has been done? You might be able to argue whether or not the STB is adequately stiff, but that's about all I can see. We can see that the distance between the towers is fluctuating while driving. The STB will essentially eliminate this. If you think it's not stiff enough that's another issue. Personally, given that the stress is along the length of the bar, I think it's a moot point.
Lastly I find it humorous that folks on this forum will tell someone thinking of possibly installing a turbo on his NA 944 that he/she should replace all the stuff Porsche did when they built the 951 (silly), yet they think nothing of spending thousands on suspension components without spending $125 to stiffen the chassis. Truly bizarre.
To the guys at KLA... Nice work. It's a shame it's under-appreciated.
<strong>It's a matter of predictability. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Bingo! Full points to Scott.
I'm sorry guys, but 98% of this discussion is rather silly.
1) As for whether adding an STB will make your car faster or not (with this one single change) is not the point. Once again, and STB is used to stiffen the chassis so that other suspension adjustments are more predictable and reliable.
You can spend all you like on suspension components, but if the chassis is flexing, you aren't getting your money's worth out of those more glamorous mods.
The only issue I've seen brought up in this discussion that is particularly interesting is the fact that if you are running rubber suspension bushings, you will still get a fair amount of slop in your suspension.
2) Sid, I'm sorry, but I see your entire discussion as academics run amok. What will all the testing you propose to do actually tell us that is truly useful beyond what has been learned from the testing that has been done? You might be able to argue whether or not the STB is adequately stiff, but that's about all I can see. We can see that the distance between the towers is fluctuating while driving. The STB will essentially eliminate this. If you think it's not stiff enough that's another issue. Personally, given that the stress is along the length of the bar, I think it's a moot point.
Lastly I find it humorous that folks on this forum will tell someone thinking of possibly installing a turbo on his NA 944 that he/she should replace all the stuff Porsche did when they built the 951 (silly), yet they think nothing of spending thousands on suspension components without spending $125 to stiffen the chassis. Truly bizarre.
To the guys at KLA... Nice work. It's a shame it's under-appreciated.
12-13-2002, 02:51 AM
#85
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by SidViscous:
<strong>How much lateral movement would be an issue for you to say a strut brace was needed?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you haven't answered this question already, what is the point of the fancy tests?
<strong>How much lateral movement would be an issue for you to say a strut brace was needed?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you haven't answered this question already, what is the point of the fancy tests?
12-13-2002, 06:29 AM
#86
Silly? Us? Surely you jest! lol
Regards, ...Scott
Regards, ...Scott
12-13-2002, 10:52 AM
#87
George,
I wouldn't say that I have been arguing that STBs are pointless. I think I have pretty clearly stated that
1) I personally didn't notice much of a difference when I put one on my car and I implied that most folks will appreciate minimal benefit in normal daily use. Spend your money as you see fit though.
2) The design in question is not optimal, it allows too much rotation around the heim joints. Actual distances may remain constant, but angles will be able to change pretty easily under load. It may help but can be better.
I wouldn't say that I have been arguing that STBs are pointless. I think I have pretty clearly stated that
1) I personally didn't notice much of a difference when I put one on my car and I implied that most folks will appreciate minimal benefit in normal daily use. Spend your money as you see fit though.
2) The design in question is not optimal, it allows too much rotation around the heim joints. Actual distances may remain constant, but angles will be able to change pretty easily under load. It may help but can be better.
12-13-2002, 01:29 PM
#89
Big thirst, Sore Thumbs
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Rennlist Member
Napoleon
Geo
I am not, nor have I been an academic. I spent many years doing testing of many sorts, and I am still involved in different kinds of testing.
I do not have, nor am I thinking of buying a strut brace. It will be at least a year before I'll even be able to start taking my car to the track, if ever.
The original question was to find a good low cost test to see how much movement there is in the shock towers. I was trying to help others to do this in a way that will give meaningful data. I find it interesting so I am willing to invest time and rescources into this, but at the end of the day I'd hand over they data and go "Have fun kids" then get in my 84 NA with the crappy motor mounts, occasional clunk in the suspension, stock shocks and middle of the road tires and be happy I can take an off ramp at 70.
Geo
"If you haven't answered this question already, what is the point of the fancy tests?"
Er ah, try to follow along. That was my point to the originator of the thread.
But regardless the tests will give us data, then if we can determine how much flex is an issue we can compare the two as we will already have the data.
I am not, nor have I been an academic. I spent many years doing testing of many sorts, and I am still involved in different kinds of testing.
I do not have, nor am I thinking of buying a strut brace. It will be at least a year before I'll even be able to start taking my car to the track, if ever.
The original question was to find a good low cost test to see how much movement there is in the shock towers. I was trying to help others to do this in a way that will give meaningful data. I find it interesting so I am willing to invest time and rescources into this, but at the end of the day I'd hand over they data and go "Have fun kids" then get in my 84 NA with the crappy motor mounts, occasional clunk in the suspension, stock shocks and middle of the road tires and be happy I can take an off ramp at 70.
Geo
"If you haven't answered this question already, what is the point of the fancy tests?"
Er ah, try to follow along. That was my point to the originator of the thread.
But regardless the tests will give us data, then if we can determine how much flex is an issue we can compare the two as we will already have the data.