Looking for all nine 1987 U.S. Turbo Cup cars
02-19-2006, 12:47 AM
#106
Rennlist Member
The following is an email I received from Paul Brand. He is a columnist for the Star-Tribune (Minneapolis paper), writes an automotive question/answer column. He made reference in one of his articles about having raced 944 Turbos years ago, so I contacted him and asked for the history.
He drove an 86 Turbo in the 1986 SCCA Escort series, then an 87 Turbo Club Sport and a 944S Club Sport in 87, and the 944S CS again in 88. The 87 Turbo CS is on the list of 9 cars that Paul Allen (Centerpunch) has posted here - it was purchased by Bob Bogan (team owner for Motorsports International), then later sold to John and Nancy Lowe who used it in PCA DE events. I actually had Nancy Lowe as an instructor at a Putnam Park DE event in '93, and rode in this Turbo CS on the track. At the time, it was by far the fastest and stiffest car I had ever been in. Oh, the memories....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jim,
I drove for Bob Bogan's Motorsports Int'l team in '86/'87/'88. We had both a Club Sport 944T, and a Club Sport 944S. The two cars, No's 80 and 08. Brings back lot's of fun memories, and some massive frustrations!
I recall that the turbo came with 3 sets of 'chips' for the engine management system. I thought there was a chip for the ECM, and a chip for the wastegate control, but I'm not sure. With the best set of chips in the ECM and wastegate control, the engine made something like 320hp at 2.1 bars of boost. I also seem to recall that there was some mechanical changes to the wastegate, but don't know exactly what that was. I do recall the 2.1 bars of boost to 7000rpm, and lot's of power.
Ironically, our original intention was to compete for overall wins with the turbo with Scott Lagesse and me driving, and rent the S to paying customers to compete in the lower class. Turned out the turbo was so undertired because of the 9" wide rear wheels that the car was basically uncompetitive. It would burn up the rear tires in just a handful of laps due to the wheelspin off the corners.
We tried to talk the SCCA into letting us use 10" wide rear wheels, we even did an un-sanctioned test on a practice day at Portland before the race weekend to show them that the wider tires were not a speed advantage, simply a durability issue in keeping tires under the car for a full fuel stint. They didn't buy it, so we ended up renting seats in the turbo, and Scott and I competed in the S, which was relatively competitive against the Saleen Mustangs and the Morrison/Cook Camaros. The S's best asset was incredible fuel endurance, so we were able to take full advantage in the longer races with fewer fuel stops.
We led many races, and Scott and I would have won the first event of the '87 season at Sears Point if we hadn't had an engine failure in the S from inadequate drainback holes in the 4-valve head. In the long sweeping carousel at Sears, the engine eventually oil starved and failed late in the race, after our one and only pit stop, with Scott leading by a wide margin. I remember the Porsche factory guys telling us it was something we had done and they wouldn't help with the replacement - until another S suffered precisely the same failure, in the same place, a bit later in the race. Porsche replaced the motor for us.
We should have won Road Altanta, but Ken Williams ran just short of fuel on the last lap of a 6 hour race, allowing the Saleen 'stang to win. We also had Sebring won by nearly a lap after a fortuitous yellow with me behind the wheel, after Scott Pruett had pitted, giving us a full lap lead. Sadly, our rental driver let the Mustang by on the next to last lap, thinking he was only being unlapped. The radio had failed earlier, so we had lost comm and couldn't signal him because it was full dark.
We also had a huge lead at Road America, with yours truly behind the wheel, due to heavy rain at the start. With a zillion laps at RA teaching for Skip Barber, I used the rain line and the S's ABS brakes to build a huge lead, which sadly faded late in the race with another driver behind the wheel. He actually fell from 3rd to 8th on the last lap of the 4 hour event.
Both cars were remarkably reliable mechanically. And it was amazing that the turbo, with that level of performance, could still be driven to/from the motel! We did suffer a couple of head gasket failures due to inadequate octane fuel, but learned quickly to make sure we had at least 108 octane for that car.
Well, there's the down and dirty of the three seasons. Don't know what happened to those two cars, nor to Bob and Motorsports Int'l. In '89 I drove for the Archer Brothers in both the SCCA truck series, and with RK Smith in one of the Eagle Talon's in the Escort Series. Co-drove to a couple of wins that year, including Nelson Ledges and Mosport, so it was a nice way to wind down my career.
Thanks for asking,
Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
He drove an 86 Turbo in the 1986 SCCA Escort series, then an 87 Turbo Club Sport and a 944S Club Sport in 87, and the 944S CS again in 88. The 87 Turbo CS is on the list of 9 cars that Paul Allen (Centerpunch) has posted here - it was purchased by Bob Bogan (team owner for Motorsports International), then later sold to John and Nancy Lowe who used it in PCA DE events. I actually had Nancy Lowe as an instructor at a Putnam Park DE event in '93, and rode in this Turbo CS on the track. At the time, it was by far the fastest and stiffest car I had ever been in. Oh, the memories....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jim,
I drove for Bob Bogan's Motorsports Int'l team in '86/'87/'88. We had both a Club Sport 944T, and a Club Sport 944S. The two cars, No's 80 and 08. Brings back lot's of fun memories, and some massive frustrations!
I recall that the turbo came with 3 sets of 'chips' for the engine management system. I thought there was a chip for the ECM, and a chip for the wastegate control, but I'm not sure. With the best set of chips in the ECM and wastegate control, the engine made something like 320hp at 2.1 bars of boost. I also seem to recall that there was some mechanical changes to the wastegate, but don't know exactly what that was. I do recall the 2.1 bars of boost to 7000rpm, and lot's of power.
Ironically, our original intention was to compete for overall wins with the turbo with Scott Lagesse and me driving, and rent the S to paying customers to compete in the lower class. Turned out the turbo was so undertired because of the 9" wide rear wheels that the car was basically uncompetitive. It would burn up the rear tires in just a handful of laps due to the wheelspin off the corners.
We tried to talk the SCCA into letting us use 10" wide rear wheels, we even did an un-sanctioned test on a practice day at Portland before the race weekend to show them that the wider tires were not a speed advantage, simply a durability issue in keeping tires under the car for a full fuel stint. They didn't buy it, so we ended up renting seats in the turbo, and Scott and I competed in the S, which was relatively competitive against the Saleen Mustangs and the Morrison/Cook Camaros. The S's best asset was incredible fuel endurance, so we were able to take full advantage in the longer races with fewer fuel stops.
We led many races, and Scott and I would have won the first event of the '87 season at Sears Point if we hadn't had an engine failure in the S from inadequate drainback holes in the 4-valve head. In the long sweeping carousel at Sears, the engine eventually oil starved and failed late in the race, after our one and only pit stop, with Scott leading by a wide margin. I remember the Porsche factory guys telling us it was something we had done and they wouldn't help with the replacement - until another S suffered precisely the same failure, in the same place, a bit later in the race. Porsche replaced the motor for us.
We should have won Road Altanta, but Ken Williams ran just short of fuel on the last lap of a 6 hour race, allowing the Saleen 'stang to win. We also had Sebring won by nearly a lap after a fortuitous yellow with me behind the wheel, after Scott Pruett had pitted, giving us a full lap lead. Sadly, our rental driver let the Mustang by on the next to last lap, thinking he was only being unlapped. The radio had failed earlier, so we had lost comm and couldn't signal him because it was full dark.
We also had a huge lead at Road America, with yours truly behind the wheel, due to heavy rain at the start. With a zillion laps at RA teaching for Skip Barber, I used the rain line and the S's ABS brakes to build a huge lead, which sadly faded late in the race with another driver behind the wheel. He actually fell from 3rd to 8th on the last lap of the 4 hour event.
Both cars were remarkably reliable mechanically. And it was amazing that the turbo, with that level of performance, could still be driven to/from the motel! We did suffer a couple of head gasket failures due to inadequate octane fuel, but learned quickly to make sure we had at least 108 octane for that car.
Well, there's the down and dirty of the three seasons. Don't know what happened to those two cars, nor to Bob and Motorsports Int'l. In '89 I drove for the Archer Brothers in both the SCCA truck series, and with RK Smith in one of the Eagle Talon's in the Escort Series. Co-drove to a couple of wins that year, including Nelson Ledges and Mosport, so it was a nice way to wind down my career.
Thanks for asking,
Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
02-19-2006, 11:26 AM
#107
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Wow, what a great story, thanks for contacting Paul Brand and posting his response!
I think in the past few months one of the non-turbo factory race cars was listed for sale here on Rennlist, maybe even being offered by Bogan......
I think in the past few months one of the non-turbo factory race cars was listed for sale here on Rennlist, maybe even being offered by Bogan......
02-19-2006, 11:46 AM
#108
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Hello,
I am brand new to this list, having just joined this past month. I am the proud owner of an 86 951 (9 years) and am in the midst of completing Phase III of the restoration. The exterior and interior have been completed (I, II), the motor is now being done.I will be posting a few questions to the forum here relatively soon.
So, being from Pittsburgh, home of Sewickley Porsche, I know of one former owner of one of these cars. I know it was sold a few years ago. If needed, I can do a bit of research on its whereabouts, let me know.
I am brand new to this list, having just joined this past month. I am the proud owner of an 86 951 (9 years) and am in the midst of completing Phase III of the restoration. The exterior and interior have been completed (I, II), the motor is now being done.I will be posting a few questions to the forum here relatively soon.
So, being from Pittsburgh, home of Sewickley Porsche, I know of one former owner of one of these cars. I know it was sold a few years ago. If needed, I can do a bit of research on its whereabouts, let me know.
02-19-2006, 11:51 AM
#109
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks, that would be great!
We have info on seven cars, still looking for info on two: 165101 and 165104.
(And of course, any info or stories about the other cars would also be of interest!)
We have info on seven cars, still looking for info on two: 165101 and 165104.
(And of course, any info or stories about the other cars would also be of interest!)
02-19-2006, 12:26 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by centerpunch
Wow, what a great story, thanks for contacting Paul Brand and posting his response!
I think in the past few months one of the non-turbo factory race cars was listed for sale here on Rennlist, maybe even being offered by Bogan......
I think in the past few months one of the non-turbo factory race cars was listed for sale here on Rennlist, maybe even being offered by Bogan......
Paul,
I thought some of Brand's comments and memories about the cars and races were interesting enough to post up here
Yes the red 944S CS that has been for sale, is Bob Bogan's. Apparently he kept that car after the race series, but sold the Turbo off at the end of the 87 season.
I had contacted Bob, and in his reply he mentioned that Rick Hurst (the owner of the #104 Turbo CS) wrecked a car bad at the Brainerd 6 hour endurance race in the rain. I have a poster of the Rick Hurst 944S CS winning its class at the race in July 87, so if Rick wrecked one of his cars, it would have been the Turbo. It may have been wrecked bad enough that it was parted out at the time, which would be why you cannot locate it now.
I tried to find Rick's current contact info, but came up with nothing. One of Rick's drivers was Kees Nierop and he shows up currently as an instructor at some driving school up in Cananda. I have not tried to contact him. The other driver of the Rick Hurst 944S was John O'Steen, who you know (I think I may have mentioned that in a past PM with you several months ago). Do you have the ability to get in touch with him? He may recall what happened to the Turbo.
02-19-2006, 12:36 PM
#112
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by zoso_turbo
Hello,
So, being from Pittsburgh, home of Sewickley Porsche, I know of one former owner of one of these cars. I know it was sold a few years ago. If needed, I can do a bit of research on its whereabouts, let me know.
So, being from Pittsburgh, home of Sewickley Porsche, I know of one former owner of one of these cars. I know it was sold a few years ago. If needed, I can do a bit of research on its whereabouts, let me know.
Sewickley ran an '86 Turbo in during the '86 season. And that car used to be around in the Ohio area 10-12 years ago or so. It was #73 and painted in the blue rothmans colors (not the same graphics scheme as the Canadian Turbo Cups). Any chance that is the one you know of?
02-19-2006, 12:55 PM
#113
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hmmm. I don't know how many of the '86 cars there were. The '87 cars, as I'm sure you all know, are significantly improved from the earlier cars, and have ABS, new suspension, bigger turbo, etc.
02-19-2006, 03:00 PM
#114
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have Bob Bogan's email. He was trying to sell the 944S cup as recently as October of last year. I seriously considered the car. If any one is interested pm me and I will forward his email address.
Don
Don
02-19-2006, 03:19 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
This thread is getting pretty long, so Im pulling up one of the older posts (back several pages) where the '86 Escort Turbos are talked about. If the link is dead, let me know - I saved the pics and can post them. Paul is correct, there are some pretty substantial upgrades from the '86 Cup/Escort cars to the '87+ Turbo Cup/Club sports. Springs and shocks are stiffer, front sway bar is larger, 928S4 front brakes w/ ABS, K26/8 turbo (more boost - more power), etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I found a link that shows some pictures and the final results from the '86 SCCA Escort Endurance Championship.
There are 8 '86 944 Turbos shown as finishing in the final SS category standings. They include a Carlsen car, two from Rick Hurst Racing, a Mathewson Racing, a Motorsports International, a Sewickley, a Fred Baker Racing, and a Ken Williams Racing.
Looks like some of them have the Cup car features (Manual Door Mirrors, and I could pick out the fiberglass hood corner latch pins on at least one picture), but at least one of them looks like its a converted street car (standard door mirrors). I recall hearing that there were 7 "Cups" imported in '86, but have no way of confirming that.
The Sewickley car now has a Rothmans paint job/sponship on it, still is #73. The Ken Williams car is the car that was found under a tree (the Al Holbert test car story...) and is now for sale as somewhat of a parts kit.
At least a couple of these teams bought the upgraded Club Sports/Turbo Cup (Escort) cars for the following season (1987), which include Rick Hurst, Bob Bogan (Motorsports International), and Carlsen.
LINK:
http://mwphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/36208
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I found a link that shows some pictures and the final results from the '86 SCCA Escort Endurance Championship.
There are 8 '86 944 Turbos shown as finishing in the final SS category standings. They include a Carlsen car, two from Rick Hurst Racing, a Mathewson Racing, a Motorsports International, a Sewickley, a Fred Baker Racing, and a Ken Williams Racing.
Looks like some of them have the Cup car features (Manual Door Mirrors, and I could pick out the fiberglass hood corner latch pins on at least one picture), but at least one of them looks like its a converted street car (standard door mirrors). I recall hearing that there were 7 "Cups" imported in '86, but have no way of confirming that.
The Sewickley car now has a Rothmans paint job/sponship on it, still is #73. The Ken Williams car is the car that was found under a tree (the Al Holbert test car story...) and is now for sale as somewhat of a parts kit.
At least a couple of these teams bought the upgraded Club Sports/Turbo Cup (Escort) cars for the following season (1987), which include Rick Hurst, Bob Bogan (Motorsports International), and Carlsen.
LINK:
http://mwphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/36208
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Last edited by Oddjob; 02-28-2006 at 10:59 AM.
02-27-2006, 10:01 PM
#116
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Noticed a couple interesting and VERY rare Turbo Cup items on eBay today: Original factory owner's manual supplements for the Turbo Cup cars. There were only 150 German ones printed (fortunately, I already have a couple), and apparently only 100 French ones.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-...spagenameZWDVW
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-...spagenameZWDVW
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-...spagenameZWDVW
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-...spagenameZWDVW
02-28-2006, 10:46 AM
#117
Race Car
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Thanks for posting those. I am sure I will get harpooned here for suggesting it, but should someone buy these and want to scan them....
Here are a few original items I scanned previously.
..of course this first one never made it to the US but the brochure did. Porsche was not going to wreck anymore for the US safety standards.
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testaro...rochure_US.pdf
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testarossa_td/teq.pdf
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testarossa_td/teq_2.pdf
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testaro...orsche_acc.pdf
Hijack over
Thanks for all the cup history info.
More info on the FR cup. via Asarus
http://www.asarus.com/cup/turbos.shtml
Here are a few original items I scanned previously.
..of course this first one never made it to the US but the brochure did. Porsche was not going to wreck anymore for the US safety standards.
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testaro...rochure_US.pdf
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testarossa_td/teq.pdf
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testarossa_td/teq_2.pdf
http://www.needmoreboost.com/testaro...orsche_acc.pdf
Hijack over
Thanks for all the cup history info.
More info on the FR cup. via Asarus
http://www.asarus.com/cup/turbos.shtml
03-14-2006, 12:17 PM
#118
Unaffiliated
http://www.asarus.com/cup/recensement.shtml
Maybe of no help, but more interesting stuff.
Does anyone have an e-mail for Don Velcio?
Please PM it to me, I want to invite him to 944Fest 06!
Maybe of no help, but more interesting stuff.
Does anyone have an e-mail for Don Velcio?
Please PM it to me, I want to invite him to 944Fest 06!
03-20-2006, 12:18 PM
#120
Unaffiliated
944fest is going to be August 4th and 5th at Nelson's Ledges in NE Ohio. We're doing a track day Friday and a gimmick rally Saturday, with bonfire/cookouts/camping Friday and Saturday night. Registration should open in a week or so when my web guy updates the site at www.944fest.com.
Paul, I sure would love to check out your car..I'm sure the crowd would too!
Paul, I sure would love to check out your car..I'm sure the crowd would too!