Looking for all nine 1987 U.S. Turbo Cup cars
09-15-2006, 02:39 PM
#136
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Originally Posted by Oddjob
I did briefly speak to Fred Baker some time ago about the Escort cars, and he indicated (or I got the impression) that the '83 and '84 prototypes were only brought over to the US for the 24hr at Nelson Ledges in '83 (the car broke a ball joint), and in '84 for the 24hrs at Nelson (it won) and Mid Ohio (engine blew early in the race) - and then the cars were returned to Germany for evaluation after those races.
09-15-2006, 03:24 PM
#137
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Originally Posted by Ken D
Interestingly enough, the turbo prototype that ran in '83 was a privateer entry. Apparently sponsored by Sewickley Porsche + Audi in PA, plus Baker's sponsorship decals also appear on the car. What was Fred's role/relationship with PMNA in those days?
He did say that the cars were supported by Porsche, that there was/were German Engineer(s) on hand, at least for the 83 and 84 races.
He also said, that even up through '87, that turbocharging on a production based car was cutting edge technology, and that the engine/boost controls were not completely understood by the race teams/mechanics. So he ran the cars stock - as supplied by Porsche. Some of the other teams did play with the boost and ran into problems (which is no surprise).
09-15-2006, 05:21 PM
#138
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I'm not sure if this helps anything, but here is some vid from Baker's Bedford Porsche Audi, 10/86.
http://www.944fest.com/dealer.avi
or, lower res
http://www.944fest.com/dealer.mpg
They don't look like magnesium wheels.
I was not there when this was filmed, it was from the family archives.
http://www.944fest.com/dealer.avi
or, lower res
http://www.944fest.com/dealer.mpg
They don't look like magnesium wheels.
I was not there when this was filmed, it was from the family archives.
09-15-2006, 06:25 PM
#139
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Dan, did you catch my question to you and Manning near the bottom of page 9, regarding an early Fred Baker car? Is the video of the car you were referring to?
The video car is interesting: its dated 10/86, so its after the end of the 86 season. Baker's car was wrecked at Nelson Ledges earlier that year. Not sure if they rebuilt/retubbed the car, or if its a completely new car. It doesnt have all the Club Sport features: it has regular door mirrors, hard to tell if it has the fiberglass hood/latches, but it is sunroof delete. The phone dials are going to be regular alum. (they actually looked polished) since this is an '86 (early offset) - the 8x9 mag phone dials came out on the 87 and later Cups.
The video car is interesting: its dated 10/86, so its after the end of the 86 season. Baker's car was wrecked at Nelson Ledges earlier that year. Not sure if they rebuilt/retubbed the car, or if its a completely new car. It doesnt have all the Club Sport features: it has regular door mirrors, hard to tell if it has the fiberglass hood/latches, but it is sunroof delete. The phone dials are going to be regular alum. (they actually looked polished) since this is an '86 (early offset) - the 8x9 mag phone dials came out on the 87 and later Cups.
09-15-2006, 06:45 PM
#140
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OJ, OUCH! those pics are painful! The car (early 86 Turbo) that we were chatting about, I don't think it is anything special, just an early (85?) 944 Turbo that Freddy Baker raced. While that alone may make it sound special, I don't think it is. AFAIK, the only thing special about Rhen's car was it had some sort of early manufactured air intake, something under the hood that wans't stock appearing. I'll e-mail Rhen for more details on his car.
09-16-2006, 12:27 AM
#141
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Dan,
Attached is a pic of a pre-production 944T that Baker raced at Nelson Ledges in '85. I was just curious if that is possibly the car you had mentioned.
Also, back to the 87 Club Sport #103 that Al Grill owned: from Paul's info, the car went from PMNA to Fred Baker, then at some point it was sold to Al. Do you recall when in 87 Al bought the car, and was it new or had it been raced by the time he got it?
That is the car that is currently here in MN, and the history that has followed it, is that it was never raced in the Escort Series. However, when I spoke to Fred, he mentioned that his team did race a car again in 87. And also Jon Milledge said that Baker had one of 87 Club Sports in the 87 Series. So something doesnt match up ... either Baker raced an older car in the 87 series, possibly the car shown in your video (the rebuilt/replaced '86), and just sold the brand new 87 Club Sport to Al; or they raced the 87 CS during the season and sold it to Al at the end of the year - any ideas?
Attached is a pic of a pre-production 944T that Baker raced at Nelson Ledges in '85. I was just curious if that is possibly the car you had mentioned.
Also, back to the 87 Club Sport #103 that Al Grill owned: from Paul's info, the car went from PMNA to Fred Baker, then at some point it was sold to Al. Do you recall when in 87 Al bought the car, and was it new or had it been raced by the time he got it?
That is the car that is currently here in MN, and the history that has followed it, is that it was never raced in the Escort Series. However, when I spoke to Fred, he mentioned that his team did race a car again in 87. And also Jon Milledge said that Baker had one of 87 Club Sports in the 87 Series. So something doesnt match up ... either Baker raced an older car in the 87 series, possibly the car shown in your video (the rebuilt/replaced '86), and just sold the brand new 87 Club Sport to Al; or they raced the 87 CS during the season and sold it to Al at the end of the year - any ideas?
09-16-2006, 03:09 AM
#142
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Originally Posted by 944Fest (aka Dan P)
OJ, OUCH! those pics are painful! .
How do you crash there? Touched/bumped by someone? I think I recognize some of the tyres!
Sorry for the hijack.
09-16-2006, 03:18 AM
#143
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Mr Albert J Grill is/was a close family friend who now resides in Florida. It was my understanding that he was somehow tied to the ownership of the dealership, or was for sure the #1 customer who later gained partial ownership. Anyway, this gentleman owned many Porsches, many 930s and other exotics, etc. He often ordered and recieved very early production cars due to his connections. He bought the car 103 (early, right?) and had license plates put on it and drove it on the street. It was white with manual windows and odd door panels. He drove it to our house and I remember my dad and brother commenting on how rare the car was, how unusual the options were, etc. It may have been the first one in the USA, that would not be uncommon for Mr Grill. My memory has a Club Sport decal on the fender, but I sure could be wrong. (don't bother, I've already been told enough) He soon thereafter had a bad DE experience in the car, going off 13 at Mid Ohio and crunching the right rear a bit IIRC. He sold it soon thereafter. This guy was absolutely meticulous about his cars, they were all pristine. There is absolutely no way he would drive an ex-race car that had anything more than a parade lap.
That's all I've got, does that help you at all?
That's all I've got, does that help you at all?
09-16-2006, 03:22 AM
#144
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If you want positive documentation of Fred Baker's race car inventory during that decade, ask Skip Wolfe to interview Dave P. He was instrumental in Fred's pit crew for most of the 80s. He is likely to have a better grasp on the cars' bloodlines than Fred, who "just" drove them. 
09-18-2006, 10:25 PM
#145
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Hey guys,
Haven't been following this thread until recently. Thought you might be interested in knowing Don Velcio has put his car up for sale.
It's a gorgeous car, that I have lusted after ever since I got into these cars. He has been fighting back problems and hasn't been able to drive it much. Don is a hell of a nice guy and extremely knowledgeable.
He is asking $31,900.
Haven't been following this thread until recently. Thought you might be interested in knowing Don Velcio has put his car up for sale.
165110 Located
PMNA to BFGoodrich - Tire testing.
Located, currently owned by Don Velcio of Cleveland.
PMNA to BFGoodrich - Tire testing.
Located, currently owned by Don Velcio of Cleveland.
It's a gorgeous car, that I have lusted after ever since I got into these cars. He has been fighting back problems and hasn't been able to drive it much. Don is a hell of a nice guy and extremely knowledgeable.
He is asking $31,900.
09-19-2006, 12:14 AM
#147
Rennlist Member
Yes it is modified, but I couldn't tell you how much. It was maintained by Steinels Autowerks and Eric Steinel got his start at Fred Bakers and worked with Dave P (whom Dan refered to in his post) on developing Fred's SS winning 951's. Those guys are both incredibly knowledgeable in how much they know about setting up 944 Turbo's for the track. So whatever was done to Don's car, I'm sure is top notch.
09-19-2006, 07:51 PM
#149
Hey! Anyone want to buy the Gen'l Sherman? I'm all over Don's car if I can. 
. That car was VERY impressive at 944fest!
. That car was VERY impressive at 944fest!
10-22-2006, 06:36 PM
#150
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Updates, Don Velcio's car has changed hands, the new guy had it on Mid-Ohio this last weekend shaking it down. It looked like he was having a lot of fun!
On another note, the 85 951 Manning asked about.. I've got more details. manufacture 4/85, no sunroof or brakelight, late dash, VIN WPOAA0954GN150061. Factory roll cage . It looks a lot like a early factory race 951!
On another note, the 85 951 Manning asked about.. I've got more details. manufacture 4/85, no sunroof or brakelight, late dash, VIN WPOAA0954GN150061. Factory roll cage . It looks a lot like a early factory race 951!