RMills944

A guy on another board is trying to argue on suspension dynamics with me saying softer handles better - anyone want to back me up here:

MY ARGUEMENT:

I agree to an extent. The motion of the car in rolling also shifts weight, and therefore is going to be less stable in corners, therefore affecting handling. As good as the handling is in the jetta, when pushed, it does feel clumsy and a bar will also fix that. The fact is that if I do hit a bump in the jetta, you are more likely to lose control becuase of that bump than if I'm in my 944. The reason being that the weight is shifting around more and because of that, pushing it could cause that back end to swing around easier since the suspension isn't as tight and the wheels will not stay planted as well.

I will agree that you probably aren't pushing near the limits yet, and you should go to at least one autocross or driver's education on a track before trying anything though.

HIS REPLY:
Actually, the softer the suspension, the more planted the wheels/tires will be. If you have stiffer suspension, the bump instead of being absorbed, will be transmited to the body, therefore the body will get the motion, and once the body moves, it carries the wheel as the suspension is so stiff and needs more time to compress/decompress. All this translates to less "mechanical grip" or let's call it just grip. There are two things we have to define and then we can talk about:

1. What is the definition of "handling"?

2. What is more important for the user: To have great feel that he is in control (but eventually not going much faster than before!) ... or that the car has better Road Holding.

Road Holding and Feel for Handling are two very different things.

Softer suspension will outperform stiffer suspension (same car) on a very fast corner with bumps! On a small slower flat and perfect smooth course, the stiffer suspension will have an edge. The main problem here is that 90% of the stuff that is for sale around is not designed to make you go faster on the crappy streets, but makes you feel you are going faster, so it sells well.

Mighty Shilling

Well, from my personal experience, the car handles MUCH better when the Konis are set to full than that of when they're set to soft... because of this, I drive around with em on full all the time.

Also, if it's soft, wouldn't it bounce the wheel TOO high, make it lose contact with the road, which as we all know, is a BAD thing? I'm with you...stiffer is better.

RMills944

That's what I'm thinking - here's my reply:

So you're saying the soft suspension of a caddillac will "handle" better than my 944? I think not.

A stiff suspension feels that way becuase the reaction time of the struts and shocks as well as the spring rates A stiffer spring rate will push the wheel down to the road faster - this is what feels so harsh about the ride in a stiffly sprung car. The softer spring rates will allow more time without contact to the ground since it's not pushing the tire down to the road with as much force. Without contact with the ground, you have no grip whatsoever.

Have you riden in a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Corvette, etc? All of them ride more harshly becuase of the spring rate, and I gaurantee they will turn a lap faster than an equal power/weight ratio Vw jetta with its relatively soft stock suspension.

RMills944

I'm pretty sure this guy has never put any aftermarket suspension components on his car much less compared tehm on a track basis.

car_slave

Rock hard suspension on bumpy roads will slow you down, or potentially bounce you off the road, but on the track, or good roads, you get less brake dive and flatter handling. Just as long it’s all sorted out properly. Kind of a strange argument though.

car_slave

A few years back I was driving an old Ford Exploder on a washboard road, and the car could not be driven beyond 10mph without drifting into a ditch! So I let out 20psi from all four tires, and then we could cruise along at 30pmh. But who the hell would take their track car on roads like that?

Mighty Shilling

Well, lets see...my 924S when I got it had worn shocks, a 19mm front sway, and absolutely no rear sway. I DE'd it, and I was so slow.

A month later, Koni's, a 24mm front and 19mm rear sway, and 220# springs, and the car was unbeleiveable how well it was handeling. that guy is dead wrong.

iloveporsches

A softer suspension means more compliance. You cannot control roll rates and camber as effectively as you can with an optimized suspension. Note, however, that an optimize suspension isn't the stiffest suspension you can throw on the car. There's lots of very complex equations governing all of this stuff. Take a look at Miliken's "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" to get a little better understanding, or you can look at some of Carroll Shelby's book for a more reader-friendly explanation.

Yabo

as far as normal road surfaces (cracks, bumps, holes, debris, etc...) you do want some softness to the suspension, so that your wheels will stay in contact with teh ground rather then hitting the obstacles and jumping because they do not "give" at all. On a track, of course, stiffer is better. Body lean takes the weight off of the inside wheels, sway bars and stiffer suspension will keep more weight and force on your inner tires than without, giving you 4 tires with grip rather than 2.

iloveporsches

No. Optimized is better.

Yabo

Well yes, but I was referring to stock (as in stiffer than stock) or stiffer than a normal car's suspension setup. Obviously, everything needs to be balanced, and your components need to be what will work the best with each other. But on a flat track, you do not want much body roll.

Scootin159

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/tech_index.htm

A must read

RMills944

^^ That's exactly what I was looking for - anyone else have links to support my view?

Yabo

Don't know if this qualifies, but this is about 944's in general and suspension upgrading.. http://www.btinternet.com/~dmsims/94...reparation.htm

Sami951

stiffer suspension -> less body roll -> less change in wheel camber / tire contact patch, at least in our mcpherson-equipped cars. With multilink suspension it doesn't matter that much.. but still, cars with overly soft suspension suffer from body roll, which in turn causes transient "lag" - in quick moves the body of the car sways from one side to the other slowly, and it takes a while for it to settle. It's easier to drive for sure, as you'll have more time to react to whatever the car is doing, but with a suitably tuned suspension, you'll get much better turn-in and more agility. I can't really prove any of this, it's just what I've observed. Feel free to disagree