Jason1985

So I have decided to start looking at some 944's in my area (Detroit, MI area) and have a few viewings set up for this weekend (Sunday Dec 23) and next weekend (Sat Dec 29). I am a former master mechanic and a current electrical engineer, so while I am not really familiar with Porsche's at all, I have the ability / resources to perform just about any repair. Not too interested in doing my own paint / body work but I wouldn't be opposed to pulling and restoring a cracked dash, split seats, or other common interior issues. So what aesthetic issues that any +30 year old vehicle would have should I look past and be on the look out for? I'm limiting my search to what I want: +85.5 MY, guards red, phone dial wheels, non-turbo and (HAS TO BE) 5-speed versions, This means so far my search has only returned results about 4 hours from home. That means either towing it home or risking a 4 hour drive . I'll have to go on the faith of the seller that the clutch, timing belt, etc. has been replaced (with or without receipts) if the vehicle seems decent enough to risk the drive. Also anyone know of some vehicles in my area I should be looking at? Not looking to win first prize at the concours, just something decent I wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen in for ~$6k max.


Well enough from me. I look forward to your responses.


-Jason

Otto Mechanic

What area are you in Jason?

Being that specific about the car you're looking for, you may need to broaden your search area depending on where you are. I ended up shopping nationally for my S2 even though I live in an area where 944s are relatively popular. If you were in NE Wyoming for example, you wouldn't have much luck I don't think.

Is there a reason you picked the 85.5 rather than a later model? Porsche continued to refine the 944 all the way through the "S3" aka 968. Basic rule of thumb with these cars is generally to buy the most recent model you can afford.

Swenny

Be prepared for Porsches German engineering (excessive use of fasteners) cost and availability of parts, frequent maintenance, and the fact that you will have an auto that everyone will have an opinion about (the car or you :-) ).Some of the design will put a smile on your face and other parts if it will leave you scratching your head. Bring a compression tester with you when you shop. Some of the plastic that Porsche used is of a superior quality and other bits don't age as well (odometer gears). But what a good choice! There is a reason these cars are still around,they're fun to drive!

Jason1985

@Otto Mechanic as I stated in my original post I'm in the Detroit Metro Michigan area. And I'm not limiting myself to just the 1985.5, but I don't want the first gen (old interior, smaller fuel tank, etc.). I tried stating this when I wrote "+85.5" but I have also seen it as 944.2 I guess. So anything from 85.5 til end of 944 production.

@sweeney thanks for the advice. I have absolutely no image issues, my daily driver is Kia Optima plug-in hybrid, not a "look how green I am Prius", so a 944 would probably be the polar opposite . And even tho no one could argue the fact that the 944 is a "true" Porsche. It's still probably looked at as the "Cousin Eddie" of the line up But I don't care. I want what I want. No matter what the wife, or anyone else, says.

With that said I had my first viewing today (12/23/2018). An '86 with absolutely IMMACULATE interior. It's been owned by the same guy the last 15 years and always stored indoors, especially during the winter, and for the most part kept out of the rain. I'll give a quick summary:

PROs:

• Fired right up, idled rough for about 5 seconds and smoothed right out
• Oil pressure at cold start up about 5 bar
• All electrical items seemed to work (power windows, driver seat (!), pop up headlamps,
• Owner has all records and original parts that have been replaced (Example: has some kinda K&N type of cone air filter on it now but original air induction parts come with purchase)
• Comes with tool kit, compressor, sunroof bag, losta spare parts (starter, engine computer / control module, full engine gasket set)
• Paint 8/10
• Comes with a similar vintage parts car! (purchased just for pass door handle but has all glass, set of wheels, powertrain. Interior is 0.05/10 )

CONs:

• Very little miles put on since timing belt replacement, but that was done about 10 years ago now. I've read this should be done every 3 regardless of mileage.
• Slight oil leak on passenger side on to exhaust, burning oil smell coming into interior during short test drive
  • Owner claims valve cover gasket but from what I've read it's most likely oil cooler
• Couldn't test drive very far (not insured), but heard a clunk from what sounded like drivers front
  • Has Weltmeister front end. Can anyone elaborate???
  • Oil deteriorated sway bar bushing (kinda like how it sounded)
• Brakes kinda left a lot to be desired. If a panic situation arose during my maiden 4 hour drive home, I'm not sure how it would go, but I have an idea... (good first area to diagnose and repair if I purchase)
• Windshield has cracks near lower edge, not in line of sight. Spare parts car glass looked good but I know the chances of a flawless removal and install. I know because of the integrated antenna these ain't cheap.

All in all a VERY solid contender for the price and probably the one I'll end up with. I am viewing two more next weekend (12/29/2018) but from the pics I know they have interior issues. One does also come with a parts car for about $1k less.

odurandina

How to create a list of trust, make friends, influence people and not lose perspective; Hint: post #48

https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...l#post10573196

and after she blows sky high--GO V8!

still unsure? Why all cars must have a V8, V10, V12, W12, etc.....

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2006/07/v8s-rule/

Wisconsin Joe

First line of his post says "Detroit area."

However, there is a spot in the profile he could have filled out that posts it right by his name. I suppose we all look there first.

First off, broaden your search area.

There are a lot of these cars around, but not a whole lot for sale. Be willing to travel to get a decent one.
Be ready to borrow or rent a trailer & tow vehicle. Unless you are reasonably certain of what's done, driving a 'new to you' car any real distance is a gamble.

On the plus side, a 944 is small & light enough that you can tow it on a smaller trailer, with any reasonable tow vehicle. You don't need a 3/4 ton truck to tow it.

Also, December is not the best time to start looking for these cars, not in the upper Midwest. Anything worth buying will likely be put away until the snow (and salt) are gone.
OTOH, don't give up. I got my 928 in January. From Minneapolis.

There's not a whole lot that's particular to these cars. The crest on the hood carries a price premium for replacement parts, although there are various sources that aren't Porsche (and are of quality ranging from 'good' to 'garbage').

While they were fairly advanced when new, they are seriously 'old school' today. The fuel injection/spark control through the DME is a good example. Cutting edge back then, but today, everything is integrated. In a modern car, everything 'talks' to everything else. Full OBD.
Not so on the 944. Each system is fully independent. You won't get an alternator issue creating an odd fault where the car tells you it needs a new transmission (which is a real example).

You need to know how to do 'old school' diagnostics. You need to be able to figure out what is going on and going wrong without depending on hooking up a computer and having the car tell you what's wrong.
That may come across a bit snarky, but the reality is that far, far too many techs these days don't seem to be able to figure out issues without the car telling them.

Jason1985

Thanks @Wisconsin Joe I have updated my profile to include my location.

mrgreenjeans

For myself, the first things I looked for was the level of care given to a solid maint. schedule, the interior, and the exterior in that order. I never considered a car which was a year round daily driver IF it came from winter stressed areas of the U.S. where salt or de-icers were used.
I had a list of options I was looking for on all my purchases and they had to be inclusive of limited slip, sport suspension, sport shocks, and sport seats. Everything else was secondary in way of options and color choice. I also wanted FUCHS wheel optioned cars and was always on the look for sunroof delete variants. Or had an extremely rare option code such as the '86 Touring package - I82 option which is on the car in my profile pic. I bought it 3 years ago with 28,000 miles with a show car history and a fanatical, fastidious owner.
Mechanical issues, to me, are less of a concern than body damaged, degraded interiors, or modded vehicles. I wish you well in your pursuit of YOUR car. I hope you will consider paying 'up' for the right car and spend the amount comfortable to you which will produce a good result in bringing another one into a good home. Less and less of these cars are being found with proper care and that may be in part to the incorrect assumption 944s and 951s are not 'real' Porsches. Many fell into the wrong hands when maint. costs drove them into the arms of uncaring owners. They were built by sister company Audi under licensing of Porsche. Engines were designed and built by Porsche. The company was proud to put their name on the product, and that is good enough for me to consider them a real Porsche.

mrgreenjeans

And the oil leak you mention may well be the back seal on the cam which is allowing a slow drip to form and drop onto the exhaust manifold, creating a smell of burned oil to creep into the ventilation system. It is a very common problem with most cars at about 50 or 60,000 miles or more. I have had to do this job on more than a few of my 944s..... it's just a normal maint. item along with fuel pumps, an occasional rear wheel bearing, or the water pumps and belt replacement issues these have. Power steering woes, rack leaks, those bushings on the sway bar from changing oil, heater control valves, DME cold solder cracks, and ground point corrosions are all legacy on old 944s, On series 2 cars, be aware the fuel lines create a bit more of a hazard to burning the car down if they burst from age and heat and spray fuel on the hot manifold. Series one cars need to be watched for this as well, but the routing of the rubber lines is different and less vulnerable to fire issues.

I now have assembled a small collection of Series 1 and 2 normals as well as 951 - M030 cars. If a person is diligent on maintenance, you have nothing to fear........ if you do not buy a complete car with all the small items included such as bags, tools, air compressor, etc., costs will escalate quickly because some of these items are hard to find and not inexpensive for nice pcs. Condition of all these items is critical to having a nice car you may be proud to present to friends and enthusiasts. Also it may not hurt to pull the battery before you buy and check the condition of the bottom of the case it rests on in the bulkhead as these have been known to rot a hole and allow water to enter behind the dash. Corroding electrical components, DME boxes, and rotting floor pans. To say nothing about promoting the health hazard of mold growth in the carpet and padding.

DSMblue

Agree with Mr. Greenjeans that body issues are primary importance, along with interior. Mechanical issues, while not necessarily fun, can be done. Rust issues can (and usually are) extremely expensive to resolve properly. It sounds to me like the 86 you found may be a good choice. Expect to invest a good sum of money in maintenance and repairs, as the newest ones in the 944 line are 27 years old.

Wisconsin Joe

This is also true of the 928. It's not that it wasn't considered a "real Porsche" (and I always thought the 944 was built in Stuttgard, just like the rest of them).

It's that the 928 &944 weren't embraced by the 'rear engined' crowd, so the value plummeted. Once they got cheap, they got bought by people who had no clue, no motivation or no money to maintain them properly.

Just because you could get one for a few thousand, parts & labor by qualified techs was on par with what they cost new.

So they descended into automotive hell, being neglected & butchered by incompetent idiots.

There's a strong suggestion in the 928 community to get the very best condition car you can afford. While just about anything can be fixed, the cost of returning a neglected car to 'reliable' status is usually going to cost more than the car will be worth in the end. "$10k away from a $5k car" is a common situation.

Swenny

In response to Mr. Green Jeans, I'm on my second '87 924S and I've had other trouble than the common ills that our P-cars end up with. I've had clowns drive by the house while I was working on one of them and scream "piece of sh*t!" and shake their heads and on an occasion give a thumbs up only to pull up and ask "what kinda car is that?" My first one had to be owned by the type that Wisconsin Joe described because there was a whole lot of undoing and redoing "repairs" by the PO('s). My 2nd was taken care of but parked for some time before I had purchased it. So I ended up doing all of the maintenance that was avoided. Owning these cars is not for the faint of heart nor mind. When I had restored Miatas, the cars never received the attention that the Porsche does. Even the rear engine guys act like they're not looking at the Porsche. One time I had a guy say to me,"this isn't a real Porsche,the engine isn't in the rear" I told him,"If you like it the rear, go to a gay bar" Working on these cars is a part of ownership,not everyone can do it.

Jason1985

Thank you all for your replies. As many have mentioned these poor vehicles have seemingly fell into the hands of more "interesting" people. Looked at one this past weekend in an undisclosed Ohio town in a very shady off the beaten path junkyard sort of area, tucked away in a shipping container . The car was a basket case tho. Everything felt loose and rattled, felt like it had solid (or completely worn) motor mounts (severe vibration into cabin during 30 second test drive), missing several interior bit (broken sun visor clips, center console door gone, aftermarket radio just placed in dash with no attempts to secure), Walmart seat covers over the split factory seats, unsupportive hood and hatch props etc... Exterior, paint and clear coat were in surprisingly good shape however. Other vehicle I looked at that day was at a used car lot and had many of the same issues but also had peeling clear coat and wrong for the year windshield (no integrated antenna), clutch grabbed at almost the very top of the pedal travel (making me look like I didn't know how to drive stick anymore ) but suspension and rest of powertrain felt surprisingly solid but the price was waaaay high, especially considering what others are asking for vehicles in better shape.

Therefore I have decided to go with the first vehicle that I looked at. While it's certainly not perfect, I feel very comfortable with how the vehicle has been cared for / stored and maintained and it comes with the bonus parts (future track / race???) car and all parts that have been removed, replaced or upgraded come with it. Just have to pick it up now and get to work!!!

@odurandina Thanks for the advice but that's not really what I'm looking to do. I'd like to stay as near as possible to stock as I can. At least as far as the powertrain, and the weight distribution, are concerned.

@mrgreenjeans The first thing I'd like to do after picking the vehicle up is find a shop nearby and get an inspection done to determine if I want to risk the 4 hour drive home or trailer it. The parts car complicates this as I only have a trailer and tow vehicle for one vehicle...

I have checked this specifically on all of the vehicles I have checked and surprisingly did not find anything concerning.

@DSMblue I agree too as I understand the 944 has a fully stainless steel body. I'd imagine the only way to stop rust once it starts is complete panel replacement ($$$). That being said the only exterior issues I noted on the example I decided to go with (that the owner made sure to point out and explain) is a maybe quarter sized ding in the passenger front fender, supposedly from a semi-trunk tire shedding its tread but not going under the car.

One thing I did notice on every example was some considerable difficulty in closing either one or both of the doors. The door(s) would close about half way then require an extreme amount of effort to get them past that point. Once you got the door past that point however you would end up slamming the door, so hard in fact that I was worried I'd shatter the door glass. I've read about lubing the hinges with lithium grease but this sounds more like a band-aid than a fix as it has to be repeated once the symptoms return. Anything I can check for or do for a longer lasting fix or is the periodic greasing the way to go?

mrgreenjeans

In the winter time these doors do close much harder than any other car I own, including the Audi 200s and 4000. Both Audi and 944s were built on the same car line in Audi's Neckarsulm factory and use similar hinge location and door checks, so am thinking it has much to do with lubrication and/or placement or sealing of the rubber trim, allowing either dirt or water to enter. I don't use either car lines in the winter, choosing to use an expendable Japanese 4 wheel drive or front wheel drive to endure the snow, ice, and road salts, so don't encounter the situation except to check on them in the garage. They are stiff and heavier feeling..... they do require nearly yearly lubing. I use a dry silicone-grease spray lube and hold a rag around the area so overspray doesn't get on bodywork or interior bits. I also close the doors by the center of the door and by the door handle, not by the top of the door frame. There is a difference in leverage and feel to the closing.

The bodies are fully galvanized steel not stainless ( second series was warranted for 10 years, not the initial 7 years on perforation due to rusting ). There are pockets of concern such as behind the fenders in the rear of those front fenders which collect salt and debris and need fastidious care and cleaning. Sill areas or under the rocker panels where floor pans meet, and rear wheel 'bins' behind the rear wheel, are vulnerable. Often times the rubber one way plugs are missing and thus collects moisture in these areas and rust starts easily. If they are left dirty or full of trash and debris. One car I looked at and passed on had a blanket wrapped around the cardboard box and air compressor and everything was soaked in water. Rust was bleeding from the area around wheel well seams. Total negligence had ruined that part of the car and the very hard to find air pump.

Jason1985

Well I picked it up last weekend and I'm very happy to report that it made the +250 mile trip under its own power! It was, however, one of the scariest experiences of my life. Not sure what kind of experience most of us have driving +30 year old Porsche's in the snow (https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.23184bed4f42) but I absolutely DO NOT recommend it ! I also fully understand why pop up head lights are no longer a thing. Besides allegedly being bad for pedestrians them are extremely good at collecting and building up massive amounts of snow in relatively short order. Once the sun set (didn't get on the road to home til ~4 pm EST) I was driving by braille for hours until I finally had to stop. When I shut off the headlights the rest stop they failed to retract and I was like "Oh great, well I know one of the first things I need to work on" but upon inspection I found a mound of snow/ice built up on them and only about a 1" diameter of clear headlight. No wonder I couldn't see. After stopping for dinner nearby the snow finally stopped and the road started to clear up so I was finally able to focus on the car and not being killed every time I got passed and my windshield covered in snow or flying / sliding off the road. Anyways during the drive I noticed a few things needing fixin':

1. The seller tried making the ridiculous claim that first gear did not have a synchronizer and that the only way to get into first (without grinding) was at a complete stop. Even at a complete stop it would still grid / I'd have to force it into gear. I honestly didn't stop much but I guess shifting to 2nd and then 1st may have helped but I didn't try. Diagnosis = bad first gear synchro ---> trans rebuild...yay...
2. There was a whine coming from the transaxle area that independent of the current gear but very dependent on vehicle speed and torque load. Assumed diagnosis = ring and pinion,carrier bearing ---> still trans rebuild.
3. The gauges were sooooo incredibly dim that they might as well not even have been there. Not exactly the most desirable situation when trying to keep an eye on oil pressure, coolant temp, fuel gauge, battery gauge, tach and speedo. Again I'm happy to report that I had no issues with the car other than the weather. I have read up a bit on the instrument clusters and will look into some modern LED lighting as well as checking the state of reflective surfaces inside and replacing with aluminum tape as necessary as well as considering some white gauge faces.
4. Ripped the rearview mirror off the windshield. Luckily this occurred after getting home but the mirror was extremely loose and floppy and wouldn't stay in the "flipped" position so I was also periodically blinded by my brother following in the two vehicle behind me. While certainly not specific to Porsche's, just one more thing to fix
5. Odometer doesn't work. A replacement gear was provided. If brittle +30 year old plastic in gauge cluster doesn't break this doesn't look too bad.

So besides fluids all around, timing and balance belts it looks like my most major repair will be a manual transaxle rebuild. I have to do some more homework as well as look through the manuals the vehicle came with (seller claims that a CD-ROM that was provided has all factory information on it) but if anyone has some advice on rebuilding these transaxles I'm all ear's. My biggest concern is the special tools required and the availability of the parts required. The building where the car is parked has a growing machine shop with a lathe so maybe I could whip up something similar as far as the tools go, parts (like the snychro, bearings, seals...) are another story. From what I've read the most critical area seems to be setting the backlash on the r&p and for that I might reach out to a local shop (https://www.munks.com/). While they technically specialize in air-cooled stuff they do have some video's on 944's so I do know that they have branched out over the years.

So again any hints, tips, tricks, lessons learned, parts sources, part number information etc. as far as a trans rebuild is concerned would be greatly appreciated.

- Thanks, Jason