Early 944 - what’s the best way to upgrade brakes to track duty?
11-11-2018, 07:55 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Early 944 - what’s the best way to upgrade brakes to track duty?
i am looking at an early 944 with an LS1. What is the best method to upgrade the brakes to track duty? I have scoured the forum and see a lot of older posts pointing to the Wilwood (our of stock) and some minimal info about early Boxster calipers and cayenne rotors. Nothing seems definitive. So what’s the definitive? Need to upgrade the control arms? Or is aftermarket the way to go? Thanks for your help!
11-11-2018, 08:47 PM
#2
Before even touching the brakes you should make sure the spindles have been upgraded to a later pair that don't have a hollow left spindle. All 944s before halfway through MY85 (dash from 924), and all 924s, have a hollow left spindle.
The easiest solution for brakes would be to source Turbo spindles and calipers. That said, if the car has a lot of power the normal Turbo calipers may not be adequate.
Late offset spindles are thicker, but require longer control arms (OE long arms are all aluminum which is not ideal), different struts, and different strut mounts if you are using the OE rubber bushed ones.
You might consider aftermarket control arms (some are better than others). The early steel arms are generally better than the later aluminum, but neither are great.
The easiest solution for brakes would be to source Turbo spindles and calipers. That said, if the car has a lot of power the normal Turbo calipers may not be adequate.
Late offset spindles are thicker, but require longer control arms (OE long arms are all aluminum which is not ideal), different struts, and different strut mounts if you are using the OE rubber bushed ones.
You might consider aftermarket control arms (some are better than others). The early steel arms are generally better than the later aluminum, but neither are great.
Last edited by FrenchToast; 11-13-2018 at 04:36 PM.
11-11-2018, 08:50 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Forget the Willwoods amhik. For reliable track use at a minimum I’d convert the front suspension to late offset and fit 951S rotors/calipers, at the rear some regular 951 calipers and 86 951 rotors.
11-12-2018, 12:22 AM
#4
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Personally I see no need to upgrade the brakes even with the swap.
944spec and similar classes run the **** out of their cars on stock calipers and rotors, just more aggressive pads and ducting.
Maybe you accelerate faster but it still weighs the same... get better tires first.
944spec and similar classes run the **** out of their cars on stock calipers and rotors, just more aggressive pads and ducting.
Maybe you accelerate faster but it still weighs the same... get better tires first.
11-12-2018, 09:37 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
It really depends on your current brake solution... is there a booster? If not, what master cylinder? What pedal? What leverage ratio? What calipers? If there is a booster, what type? Mustang hydroboost? Remote vacuum booster? Some hybrid?
Spencer, to your comment, accelerating faster means you'll be at a higher speed at the braking point - where you need to slow down for a corner. e.g. 2700 lb car at 120mph slowing down to 60 mph has to dissipate the energy of slowing 60 mph (SP2 stop speed at end of straight); but a 2700 lb car doing 145 on that same straight needs to dissipate the energy of slowing down 85 mph (the Turkey). Larger rotors dissipate more heat; larger calipers can exert more force; larger sweep area generates more friction.
No offense to the OP, but unless this LS 944 has been built specifically with the track in mind, I'd run, not walk, away from the deal. I recently spent almost two years building and sorting such a track beast. It's a ton of fun, but not that simple.
https://jalopnik.com/this-tire-smoki...c-b-1829705701
Spencer, to your comment, accelerating faster means you'll be at a higher speed at the braking point - where you need to slow down for a corner. e.g. 2700 lb car at 120mph slowing down to 60 mph has to dissipate the energy of slowing 60 mph (SP2 stop speed at end of straight); but a 2700 lb car doing 145 on that same straight needs to dissipate the energy of slowing down 85 mph (the Turkey). Larger rotors dissipate more heat; larger calipers can exert more force; larger sweep area generates more friction.
No offense to the OP, but unless this LS 944 has been built specifically with the track in mind, I'd run, not walk, away from the deal. I recently spent almost two years building and sorting such a track beast. It's a ton of fun, but not that simple.
https://jalopnik.com/this-tire-smoki...c-b-1829705701
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11-13-2018, 05:40 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
It's my understanding the best brake setup for the 944 was essentially the 928 system, factory installed on the 944S2 and 944 Turbo S: https://rennlist.com/forums/944-and-...e-as-928s.html
But I could be wrong about that. I have a 928 S3, so no 4 piston brakes. The 944 S2 has better brakes near as I can tell.
PS: If you're putting brakes on an LS 944, why not just put in a Corvette suspension and brakes and call it a day? I've never really understood you folks. Want a V8 in a 944? Buy a 928, they're cheaper and they'll knock the snot out of a Corvette of the same model year. Why not just shove a (oh, never mind. For a moment I forgot this was a family friendly web site...)
Regards,
But I could be wrong about that. I have a 928 S3, so no 4 piston brakes. The 944 S2 has better brakes near as I can tell.
PS: If you're putting brakes on an LS 944, why not just put in a Corvette suspension and brakes and call it a day? I've never really understood you folks. Want a V8 in a 944? Buy a 928, they're cheaper and they'll knock the snot out of a Corvette of the same model year. Why not just shove a (oh, never mind. For a moment I forgot this was a family friendly web site...)
Regards,
11-13-2018, 06:22 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
11-13-2018, 07:53 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
That's exactly right I think.
The 80's 928s had the 80's Vettes down cold; The Vettes and 928's were pulling the same skid pad performance with that active Weisach axle on the 928 outdoing the Vetts slightly. As I recall they were pulling about .98gs vs. the Vettes .96. 0-60 on the auto 928 was 5.9 seconds, the Vette was a bit slower. Across the board, the 928 had the Vette, but the margins was too small to really make a call. If you put the two cars against each other back then, it was the driver who made the difference; the cars were so evenly matched it wasn't important, and that's where all the fun started
I loved the 1985 Vette, it was a beautiful, high performance car and so was the '85 928. Would I put a Vette powerplant in a 944? Hell no! The '85 Vette was spec'd at 230hp, the '89 944S2 delivered with 208hp. The difference? 370 lbs. in curb weight in favor of the 944S2. Is the 944S2 quicker than the Vette? Hell yes! The 928 at 288hp and 3300 lbs vs. the Vette at 230hp and 3216lbs? Yes.
Essentially, the 944 S2 has the Vette beat with no mods as does the '85 928. Why anyone would put an LS engine in a 944 seems unusually crazy to me. Just buy a 944 S2 or, if you want to go really crazy, buy a 928. It's not all that hard.
Want an earlier model? Higher output? Consider an F-16.
That, in my opinion, is why God invented the 928. Sorry, that's just the way I feel about it. It's not like no one ever made a V8 Porsche; it was dubbed the 928 and there it is. Putting an exogenous V8 in a 944 is purely silly and that remains my opinion; Porsche did that already and they did it extremely well. I have one and I love it. You can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead, fingers
Regards,
The 80's 928s had the 80's Vettes down cold; The Vettes and 928's were pulling the same skid pad performance with that active Weisach axle on the 928 outdoing the Vetts slightly. As I recall they were pulling about .98gs vs. the Vettes .96. 0-60 on the auto 928 was 5.9 seconds, the Vette was a bit slower. Across the board, the 928 had the Vette, but the margins was too small to really make a call. If you put the two cars against each other back then, it was the driver who made the difference; the cars were so evenly matched it wasn't important, and that's where all the fun started
I loved the 1985 Vette, it was a beautiful, high performance car and so was the '85 928. Would I put a Vette powerplant in a 944? Hell no! The '85 Vette was spec'd at 230hp, the '89 944S2 delivered with 208hp. The difference? 370 lbs. in curb weight in favor of the 944S2. Is the 944S2 quicker than the Vette? Hell yes! The 928 at 288hp and 3300 lbs vs. the Vette at 230hp and 3216lbs? Yes.
Essentially, the 944 S2 has the Vette beat with no mods as does the '85 928. Why anyone would put an LS engine in a 944 seems unusually crazy to me. Just buy a 944 S2 or, if you want to go really crazy, buy a 928. It's not all that hard.
Want an earlier model? Higher output? Consider an F-16.
That, in my opinion, is why God invented the 928. Sorry, that's just the way I feel about it. It's not like no one ever made a V8 Porsche; it was dubbed the 928 and there it is. Putting an exogenous V8 in a 944 is purely silly and that remains my opinion; Porsche did that already and they did it extremely well. I have one and I love it. You can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead, fingers
Regards,
Last edited by Otto Mechanic; 11-13-2018 at 08:58 AM.
11-13-2018, 09:59 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Gee Scott, tell us what you really think
I have to agree with Scott's many points. The older Vettes are a great track car if you just want great power and reasonable cornering. And it is all highly engineered. No stories. 928's are great too. Probably not quite as cost effective as a Vette but comes with a much higher cool factor.
I have to agree with Scott's many points. The older Vettes are a great track car if you just want great power and reasonable cornering. And it is all highly engineered. No stories. 928's are great too. Probably not quite as cost effective as a Vette but comes with a much higher cool factor.
11-13-2018, 10:12 AM
#12
Why not get a 'vette? Because an LS swapped 944 is cooler.
Definitely engine swaps or modifying a car doesn't always make sense, especially from a financial stand point. But most of us are in this hobby because we love cars, not because we want to save money.
I do agree that if I wanted a 400 hp front engine rear drive track car it would make the most sense to buy a 2002 ZO6 rather than spending so much time and money on a 944. However, IMO even my low power NA 944 is terrific as is. I haven't owned a Corvette, so I really don't know if I would enjoy it as much as the Porsche.
Definitely engine swaps or modifying a car doesn't always make sense, especially from a financial stand point. But most of us are in this hobby because we love cars, not because we want to save money.
I do agree that if I wanted a 400 hp front engine rear drive track car it would make the most sense to buy a 2002 ZO6 rather than spending so much time and money on a 944. However, IMO even my low power NA 944 is terrific as is. I haven't owned a Corvette, so I really don't know if I would enjoy it as much as the Porsche.
11-13-2018, 12:32 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
That's exactly right I think.
The 80's 928s had the 80's Vettes down cold; The Vettes and 928's were pulling the same skid pad performance with that active Weisach axle on the 928 outdoing the Vetts slightly. As I recall they were pulling about .98gs vs. the Vettes .96. 0-60 on the auto 928 was 5.9 seconds, the Vette was a bit slower. Across the board, the 928 had the Vette, but the margins was too small to really make a call. If you put the two cars against each other back then, it was the driver who made the difference; the cars were so evenly matched it wasn't important, and that's where all the fun started
I loved the 1985 Vette, it was a beautiful, high performance car and so was the '85 928. Would I put a Vette powerplant in a 944? Hell no! The '85 Vette was spec'd at 230hp, the '89 944S2 delivered with 208hp. The difference? 370 lbs. in curb weight in favor of the 944S2. Is the 944S2 quicker than the Vette? Hell yes! The 928 at 288hp and 3300 lbs vs. the Vette at 230hp and 3216lbs? Yes.
Essentially, the 944 S2 has the Vette beat with no mods as does the '85 928. Why anyone would put an LS engine in a 944 seems unusually crazy to me. Just buy a 944 S2 or, if you want to go really crazy, buy a 928. It's not all that hard.
Want an earlier model? Higher output? Consider an F-16.
That, in my opinion, is why God invented the 928. Sorry, that's just the way I feel about it. It's not like no one ever made a V8 Porsche; it was dubbed the 928 and there it is. Putting an exogenous V8 in a 944 is purely silly and that remains my opinion; Porsche did that already and they did it extremely well. I have one and I love it. You can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead, fingers
Regards,
The 80's 928s had the 80's Vettes down cold; The Vettes and 928's were pulling the same skid pad performance with that active Weisach axle on the 928 outdoing the Vetts slightly. As I recall they were pulling about .98gs vs. the Vettes .96. 0-60 on the auto 928 was 5.9 seconds, the Vette was a bit slower. Across the board, the 928 had the Vette, but the margins was too small to really make a call. If you put the two cars against each other back then, it was the driver who made the difference; the cars were so evenly matched it wasn't important, and that's where all the fun started
I loved the 1985 Vette, it was a beautiful, high performance car and so was the '85 928. Would I put a Vette powerplant in a 944? Hell no! The '85 Vette was spec'd at 230hp, the '89 944S2 delivered with 208hp. The difference? 370 lbs. in curb weight in favor of the 944S2. Is the 944S2 quicker than the Vette? Hell yes! The 928 at 288hp and 3300 lbs vs. the Vette at 230hp and 3216lbs? Yes.
Essentially, the 944 S2 has the Vette beat with no mods as does the '85 928. Why anyone would put an LS engine in a 944 seems unusually crazy to me. Just buy a 944 S2 or, if you want to go really crazy, buy a 928. It's not all that hard.
Want an earlier model? Higher output? Consider an F-16.
That, in my opinion, is why God invented the 928. Sorry, that's just the way I feel about it. It's not like no one ever made a V8 Porsche; it was dubbed the 928 and there it is. Putting an exogenous V8 in a 944 is purely silly and that remains my opinion; Porsche did that already and they did it extremely well. I have one and I love it. You can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead, fingers
Regards,
Personally if I was going to spend that kind of effort on a 951 engine upgrade, I'd do something with the 951 engine, but at the same time I can see why the swap makes sense for a lot of people, especially for racing and serious track use. When you count the time to a rebuild in hours, a 951 engine gets expensive fast. Of course, as Hack said, it doesn't always have to make sense!
11-13-2018, 04:32 PM
#14
Rennlist Member