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-   -   Racing (https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/1025430-racing.html)

951and944S 09-15-2017 07:10 PM

Racing
 
Big PCA race in New Orleans vicinity NOLA Motorsports Park all weekend.

My son Eon is racing in SP2 in one of our cars.

Not much direct competition in his group but the SP3 and D cars are expected to be faster than a 2.5 8V NA.

The one SP2 guy that did show is national NA PCA points leader though...:roflmao:

You 944 regulars might recognize another RL'er in the time sheets from Practice 3 -

https://www.race-monitor.com/Results/Session/6177570

Will post weekend updates and pics. There isn't enough racing content here in the 944 forums to reflect the amount of guys that track the model.

T

951and944S 09-18-2017 12:50 PM

Mmmkay, 100+ views and no comments, I'll take that as zero interest in future race threads...:(

Anyhow, son outqualified what was (and will be after points tally added for NOLA) the national points leader for PCA SP2,
was gridded 4 in an 18 car field populated by D 911s, SP3s and GT cars.
Won both sprints on Saturday and was up by 30 seconds in SP2 in the 90 minute enduro at the 1 hour mark after pit stops with 30 minutes to go, and

BANG.....!

Popped LF ball joint.

Third time in 8 years a victory snatched by a ball joint pin.

See a-arm thread later,

T

GPA951s 09-18-2017 02:30 PM

Factory A Arms? They do allow Racers Edge or High Strung 44 Arms.. Personally im going with the High Strung and will just Replace the pins every season..

951and944S 09-18-2017 04:22 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 14482906)
Factory A Arms? They do allow Racers Edge or High Strung 44 Arms.. Personally im going with the High Strung and will just Replace the pins every season..

Yep, been DE and racing the factory arms for phew, 8-10 years.

There's nothing wrong with the arms, never had a problem with one other than the ball joint pin.

I use the 19mm diameter, longer, geometry correcting pins.

Car is still on the trailer, could be elongated and broken pinch bore in spindle but it'd be a first.

I have a few emails out right now on components to bore and thread factory arm to receive an outside diameter threaded screw in ball joint with length replaceable non tapered pin.

Like these - https://www.qa1.net/suspension/ball-...le-ball-joints

You got any connections for ball joint sphericals, 22-24mm od, 17 or 19mm id with adjustable length non tapered 17 or 19mm pins...?

T

GPA951s 09-18-2017 04:30 PM

No I dont, Wish I did because I want to make my own A Arms, Similar to the High Strung with a Shoulder on the Ball Joint... About 6 Months ago there was a Thread on this Very subject and the conclusion was that the Pin itself was Fracturing... and some people attributed it to the way the car is tied down in the trailer? Interesting but not sure I buy it... After all how many G's is a car pulling on the track -VS- G force in a trailer? Im Starting out in Stock F so I cant run the longer pins.. Not until I move to SP3.

951and944S 09-18-2017 09:22 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 14483182)
No I dont, Wish I did because I want to make my own A Arms, Similar to the High Strung with a Shoulder on the Ball Joint... About 6 Months ago there was a Thread on this Very subject and the conclusion was that the Pin itself was Fracturing... and some people attributed it to the way the car is tied down in the trailer? Interesting but not sure I buy it... After all how many G's is a car pulling on the track -VS- G force in a trailer? Im Starting out in Stock F so I cant run the longer pins.. Not until I move to SP3.

Yeah, I was in that thread, it was probably me with the tie down through the wheels theory because it seemed to happen mostly right off the trailer.

All previous failures were with 17mm pins and the spindle bore is usually worn which allows less than 100% clamping...., pin moves, more wear in spindle, domino effect, then..., snap.

Like I said, at least for what I'm doing, the stock arms are great and I have plenty of them.

I want to either bore and and modify the stockers to accept a thread in like I linked or have billet stock copies that have a similar feature designed in.

The arms are 12 1/4" wide so would take an 18" x 18" x 2" billet each, so $500 material plus hardware.

I'll buy the equipment to make them myself before I pay $1700 for a pair.

You in....?

:D

T

951and944S 09-18-2017 09:23 PM

Paging F1 Rocks.

T

Oddjob 09-18-2017 10:00 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14483814)
Paging F1 Rocks.

Oh no, you want this thread to take a nose dive fast....



Do you have any in-car video to post? That should help getting the racing discussion going.

951and944S 09-18-2017 11:05 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 14483897)
Oh no, you want this thread to take a nose dive fast....



Do you have any in-car video to post? That should help getting the racing discussion going.


LOL, are you really tight with him but taking a friendly jab...?

I just remember him mentioning he had the equipment and wanted to machine some arms once upon a time.

Sharky too but I think he's long gone.

Video, hmm, of NOLA...?

I'll have to see what my son's posting to youtube....the in car ball joint going should be good.

Here's the same event, last year for now.

The two SP3s are the Eurosport cars, so...remember, he's in a 140hp 8V NA...:p

He did a POV mounted to helmet for this one so it's kinda weird but you can see the rest of the 8V cars disappear in his rear view.


T

V2Rocket 09-19-2017 12:27 AM

ahem..
wonder if subaru arms might work...i recall years ago somebody was fitting RX7 arms to a 944 too.

if you want i can go measure... :corn:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/fa...648538899b.jpg

curtisr 09-19-2017 09:06 AM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14482680)
Mmmkay, 100+ views and no comments, I'll take that as zero interest in future race threads...:(

Perhaps this is the reason for that. :)

Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums >
Performance & Competition Discussion Areas

951and944S 09-19-2017 09:39 AM


Originally Posted by curtisr (Post 14484536)
Perhaps this is the reason for that. :)

Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums >
Performance & Competition Discussion Areas

Well I'll be darned....,

How I missed that in 17 years around here, soon after the forums were created from just an email list is beyond me...:rolleyes:

If there's room for entire threads - "how do I get my drain plug out",

"what brand chamois is everybody running", and

"sun visor clip r & r how to DIY",

then surely there's room for a 944 specific race thread.

:biggulp:

T

951and944S 09-19-2017 09:42 AM

[QUOTE=V2Rocket;14484189]ahem..
wonder if subaru arms might work...i recall years ago somebody was fitting RX7 arms to a 944 too.

if you want i can go measure... :corn:



SPEC legality issues aside, that's against my religion,

It's in the Bible....:icon107:

T

curtisr 09-19-2017 10:24 AM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14484577)
Well I'll be darned....,

How I missed that in 17 years around here, soon after the forums were created from just an email list is beyond me...:rolleyes:

T

Not that it should matter where it is. After all, we're reading it. :)

951and944S 09-19-2017 11:01 AM


Originally Posted by curtisr (Post 14484652)
Not that it should matter where it is. After all, we're reading it. :)

944s get no love in the Racing section.

You get back snarky replies about "oil leaking on track", "unreliable this and that".

That's why some of the run group is so pi$$ed when my son pops his 87 NA in the second row of a 50 car field with 25 E and D 911 "real race cars"...., or his qualy time would put him 6th in a 20 car Boxster only group.....:roflmao:

T

951and944S 09-19-2017 11:03 AM

To any CNC guys peeping in...., what is the file type I need to create to supply to the CNC operator for these arms...?

Will Autodesk AutoCad Mechanical output a usable file...?

T

curtisr 09-19-2017 11:14 AM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14484716)
my son pops his 87 NA in the second row of a 50 car field with 25 E and D 911 "real race cars"...., or his qualy time would put him 6th in a 20 car Boxster only group.....:roflmao:

T

+1 All is right with the world then.

951and944S 09-19-2017 01:34 PM


Originally Posted by curtisr (Post 14484733)
+1 All is right with the world then.

Yup...., would be, except for the $600 race entry, 2-12 hour travel and expenses, 2-5 day hotel expense and $1200 worth of tires it takes (not counting other consumables) to run at top level.

Not to mention the time it takes to keep a car prepped all to have your victory snatched away by a $10 ball joint pin that nothing short of scheduled x-ray would find in a maintenance routine.

I'm going to solve it though.

T

Oddjob 09-19-2017 02:03 PM


Originally Posted by V2Rocket (Post 14484189)
ahem..
wonder if subaru arms might work...i recall years ago somebody was fitting RX7 arms to a 944 too.

if you want i can go measure... :corn:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/fa...648538899b.jpg

Not allowed/approved by PCA. Fabcar, Charlie, Racer's Edge, and High Strung/Custom Fabr, and modified factory steel arms are approved.

Oddjob 09-19-2017 02:05 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14484049)
LOL, are you really tight with him but taking a friendly jab...?

Friendly jab. Know him from when he used to live up in MN.

Oddjob 09-19-2017 02:11 PM

Factory alum late offset arms on the '87, with the original balljoints, not using a rebuild joint kit (?).

What was the pin failure - did the ball pop out of the socket, did the pin break at the base of the ball, or did the pin break at the pinch bolt notch, or other?

What was the age/mileage on the arms?

GPA951s 09-19-2017 02:19 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14483811)
Yeah, I was in that thread, it was probably me with the tie down through the wheels theory because it seemed to happen mostly right off the trailer.

All previous failures were with 17mm pins and the spindle bore is usually worn which allows less than 100% clamping...., pin moves, more wear in spindle, domino effect, then..., snap.

Like I said, at least for what I'm doing, the stock arms are great and I have plenty of them.

I want to either bore and and modify the stockers to accept a thread in like I linked or have billet stock copies that have a similar feature designed in.

The arms are 12 1/4" wide so would take an 18" x 18" x 2" billet each, so $500 material plus hardware.

I'll buy the equipment to make them myself before I pay $1700 for a pair.

You in....?

:D

T

hmmm I have a Friend who has a business that makes air cyl's. He has all sorts of CNC/Mazak Okuma ECT If I had the CAD File I could just hand it to him and load the Alu... I Definitely want to make my own as well before I shell out that kind of cash.. (Yea we all know racing isn't cheap, but being bent over for $1700 is a whole different level)

I will have to do some asking around, I buy allot of parts from Troyer Eng in Rochester.. I know for the Modified series they make their own A Arms Lowers with Thread in Ball Joints.. I was Crew Chief for a Modified to 10 years and won allot of championships.. They Do Really Nice Work..

I have A Arms from High Strung hanging in my shop that I wanted to copy..But they are the Heim Joint Type.. but Maybe we should find the Ball Joint First then make the arm to accept it..?

As an Aside, With the "off the Trailer" Failures.. Next time your done Racing, As FAST as you can.. Take a temp reading of the steel on the ball joint or outer portion of the spindle.. Im wondering if heat Cycling might have something to do with your issue.. Just a Thought..

Between us we should be able to come up with a Reasonable solution..

Glen.

951and944S 09-19-2017 03:07 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 14485107)
Friendly jab. Know him from when he used to live up in MN.

That's what I figured.

I PM pinged him to this thread.

T

951and944S 09-19-2017 03:12 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 14485123)
Factory alum late offset arms on the '87, with the original balljoints, not using a rebuild joint kit (?).

What was the pin failure - did the ball pop out of the socket, did the pin break at the base of the ball, or did the pin break at the pinch bolt notch, or other?

What was the age/mileage on the arms?

Factory aluminum arms, bead blasted, acid washed, high temp clearcoated, rebuilt with metallic pivot cup insert and longer geometry correcting 19mm pin.

This may be the first 19mm pin though.

Symptoms, barely noticeable steering wheel offset to the left going straight on track where it was previously perfectly centered, seconds later...whammo.

T

951and944S 09-19-2017 03:22 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 14485145)
hmmm I have a Friend who has a business that makes air cyl's. He has all sorts of CNC/Mazak Okuma ECT If I had the CAD File I could just hand it to him and load the Alu... I Definitely want to make my own as well before I shell out that kind of cash.. (Yea we all know racing isn't cheap, but being bent over for $1700 is a whole different level)

I will have to do some asking around, I buy allot of parts from Troyer Eng in Rochester.. I know for the Modified series they make their own A Arms Lowers with Thread in Ball Joints.. I was Crew Chief for a Modified to 10 years and won allot of championships.. They Do Really Nice Work..

I have A Arms from High Strung hanging in my shop that I wanted to copy..But they are the Heim Joint Type.. but Maybe we should find the Ball Joint First then make the arm to accept it..?

As an Aside, With the "off the Trailer" Failures.. Next time your done Racing, As FAST as you can.. Take a temp reading of the steel on the ball joint or outer portion of the spindle.. Im wondering if heat Cycling might have something to do with your issue.. Just a Thought..

Between us we should be able to come up with a Reasonable solution..

Glen.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.....as somebody else put it perfectly on here once, some of these parts are like a cartel.

I'll buy a 3 axis mill or a cnc machine before I pay $1700 for a set of a arms.

I am making progress.

I can ship an arm off and have it 3d laser scanned into both a 3d image and an autocad file. Est $100-$300.

Right and left is just mirrored.

I have some local CNC guys (I am on the Mississippi River in the most industrial part of the country) that will make me a set or two but if people are interested, we can just submit the file to emachineshop.com, pay a setup fee (maybe waived if enough qnty) and have them spit out as many as we want.

I want to modify the factory pin socket in AutoCad (I already have software) to accept a generically available spherical and non bottom bolt in tapered pin.

Let's get going on this and we can both benefit.

I'm not doing it to make money and don't care if 50 RL community members are involved.

T

951and944S 09-19-2017 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 14485145)
hmmm I have a Friend who has a business that makes air cyl's. He has all sorts of CNC/Mazak Okuma ECT If I had the CAD File I could just hand it to him and load the Alu... I Definitely want to make my own as well before I shell out that kind of cash.. (Yea we all know racing isn't cheap, but being bent over for $1700 is a whole different level)

I will have to do some asking around, I buy allot of parts from Troyer Eng in Rochester.. I know for the Modified series they make their own A Arms Lowers with Thread in Ball Joints.. I was Crew Chief for a Modified to 10 years and won allot of championships.. They Do Really Nice Work..

I have A Arms from High Strung hanging in my shop that I wanted to copy..But they are the Heim Joint Type.. but Maybe we should find the Ball Joint First then make the arm to accept it..?

As an Aside, With the "off the Trailer" Failures.. Next time your done Racing, As FAST as you can.. Take a temp reading of the steel on the ball joint or outer portion of the spindle.. Im wondering if heat Cycling might have something to do with your issue.. Just a Thought..

Between us we should be able to come up with a Reasonable solution..

Glen.

BTW - also, spot on.

I want to solve this myself and/or with help of forum members who want the same thing.

I build my entire cars from a primed tub. Suspension, roll cage, engine, transmission, custom fabrications, cooling, body and paint.
No other hands touch anything from the tires on up except for me and my son.

T

951and944S 09-19-2017 04:35 PM

Glen, one of my buddies with CNC has a friend flying in to visit from Nicaragua for three days.

Ace wizard in SolidWorks.

Says he can draw these in SW without a scan in 20 minutes.

I am going to do the late offset 968 arm with the brake cooling scoop mount tabs.

All I need to do is solidify a selection for the spherical and pin to be able to give him od and depth of spherical for lock ring locations.

Can you be researching best options on that....17mm non tapered pin will be fine because I am going to sleeve and weld my pins to the spindle anyway and this will leave more meat on the spindle pin bore.

T

Oddjob 09-20-2017 09:49 AM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14485275)
Factory aluminum arms, bead blasted, acid washed, high temp clearcoated, rebuilt with metallic pivot cup insert and longer geometry correcting 19mm pin.

This may be the first 19mm pin though.

Symptoms, barely noticeable steering wheel offset to the left going straight on track where it was previously perfectly centered, seconds later...whammo.

T


What rebuild kit was it, or where did you get the cups and 19mm long pins?

951and944S 09-20-2017 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 14486813)
What rebuild kit was it, or where did you get the cups and 19mm long pins?

Hmm, don't recall.

You know...., we bought enough to do 6 arms maybe and still have 2-4 pins, so probably two untouched kits.

It's not something you put your hands on a lot like replenishing supplies of brake fluid, oil, etc.

I would have to say either SSI or Rennbay.

They have the metallic lower (not nylon/plastic) cup so that might narrow it down...?

It's not a fault of the kits, it's that with extended pin length you have 1.5-2.0" of exposed length between the top of the ball and the bottom of the spindle pinch bore.
There's a lot of leverage on that pin.
The long pin on the RE tubular arm, the Charley, etc use extended pins of end user choice...., and while I'd say that they don't have this problem, there was a guy on here the other day looking for just a pin for one of those arms because he had snapped one.
My pins have just a notch for pinch bolt, not circumferential groove.

Either way, pin strength is not going to be as important, as I am either sleeving the pin all the way to the spindle, or I am going to use the large taper pins mentioned above and tig without a sleeve.

We don't have a race soon coming up, so it's not priority for me but I am in high gear on this.

I want to be able to spit out quantities because I am building the 944S SP2 car I PM'd you about.

With Hoosier R7 grip, a car setup to be able to do it and a driver that can take it to the limit, it's bound to happen.

These (or the stock) pins may last a slow driver his entire lifetime....:D

T

951and944S 09-20-2017 12:43 PM

Umh, ok, so I drop off two 968 arms to machinist.

Right off the bat, his 1st suggestion is that because I am making these from a billet anyway, I can solve the spacing issue of extending the pin to correct the position of the a arm at rest by just building up the pedestal height where the ball joint is, closing the distance between the spindle pinch bolt bore and the top of the a arm.

Jim...., Glen, what do you guys think about this alternative...?

I drew something quick up in emachine just to display what I'm talking about -

https://s26.postimg.org/ih21ym9ex/em...rm_profile.png

T

V2Rocket 09-20-2017 01:34 PM

what kind of ball joint do you intend to use?
i wonder if some kind of off the shelf, HD truck joint might be suitable.

951and944S 09-20-2017 01:44 PM


Originally Posted by V2Rocket (Post 14487282)
what kind of ball joint do you intend to use?
i wonder if some kind of off the shelf, HD truck joint might be suitable.

Trying to use these, kits, less the VW/early 944 steel arm cup and mount plate -

http://scch-heads.com/images/parts/M...20SBJK%201.jpg

But with a raised ball joint bore, I could use a shorter pin which would negate the need to take strengthening precautions.

T

GPA951s 09-20-2017 01:55 PM

I will Look at my High Strung A Arms and Give you a Dim, Worse comes to Worse we can always Have a Whole Boatload of Pins made...

Damm, Wished you were Closer... I am the Same, No hands touched my car, Did it all, Cage, Metal Fab, Engine, Paint and Body, Elec. Although i will call my wife out to the barn to help me set the rear hatch on before I scratch Fresh paint... Im going to do ONE post of the build with a TON of pics from Start to finish, Im going to call it.. "A Racecar is born" LOL .. Sorry I only Really Get on Rennlist during my lunch.. And The other night I was working on the graphics on the racecar till 4 AM...

What Gets Me is I can buy an A Arm out of mild Steel Similar in build to the high stung arm for the Modified for $100 ...

I do know a Guy who has the Files for these Ball Joints, and they are a Direct FIT! He machined a shoulder on the bottom of the pin so the spindle rests on it. In Addition the is only a "SLOT" for the clamping bolt instead of the 360 Degree Groove like factory.. I was goin to start making them but he wanted 3k for the Design.. I told him that we do do percentage of sales... and it got kinda left at that.. Good Idea though.. what do you think?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f97440b154.jpg

GPA951s 09-20-2017 02:00 PM

BTW I like your Idea about the arm, ONLY Drawback to doing it this way is that I am running Stock F to start, Cant have Geometry correction until I move into SP3... As far as the "Approved" arms.. Well, When I copy a high strung arm ... it will be just that... Except about $800 Cheaper..

951and944S 09-20-2017 03:42 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 14487363)
BTW I like your Idea about the arm, ONLY Drawback to doing it this way is that I am running Stock F to start, Cant have Geometry correction until I move into SP3... As far as the "Approved" arms.. Well, When I copy a high strung arm ... it will be just that... Except about $800 Cheaper..

On post 33, yes, the shoulder rest on the pin is a good idea.

And yeah, I get my wife to come out every now and then too.

I explained the exact reasoning to the machinist in my wanting to stay with original plan, that someone else who might want a pair, might not want the raised ball joint location.

And to tell you the truth, roll center is a tuning tool that can be utilized with varying pin lengths.

Just because I am at a sweet spot with my current setup, doesn't mean that I don't want the ability to tune with adjusting roll center.

T

floatingkiwi 09-20-2017 07:50 PM

watching with interest T....

Agreed - no use at all posting 944 stuff in the racing forum as it seems to get lost...!!

GPA951s 09-22-2017 01:49 PM

Just because I am at a sweet spot with my current setup, doesn't mean that I don't want the ability to tune with adjusting roll center.

T[/QUOTE

Just gave me an Idea, You could use Eccentrics on the inboard Side of the Arm to Change the RC.. Technically Same thing as what the longer pin Does.. OR maybe a combo to keep the pin length to a Min, Shorter is stronger...

Oddjob 09-23-2017 10:59 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Years ago there was a guy on rennlist that machined some sets of front control arms. As far as I know he stopped making them and was trying to sell the plans/business (?), don't know if anything ever went anywhere or what happened to him. I thought the arms looked really good.

Looks like most of the original threads on these have been deleted. There is one discussion still archived where there was a problem with a customer anodizing the arms and had a bad reaction (etching?) between the grade of aluminum and the anodizing bath chemicals. But I can't find the threads giving any more details on these.

Oddjob 09-23-2017 11:03 AM

1 Attachment(s)
When I played with the idea a while ago of machining control arms (something like the above "mumzer" arms), I had thought about buying fabcar pins and spherical bearings to use. In the end, decided if doing that, why not just go with the whole fabcar arm setup, as machining a single pair of billet aluminum arms and buying the pin assemblies was not going to be cheaper than buying the complete fabcar arms.

Oddjob 09-23-2017 11:09 AM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14487167)
Right off the bat, his 1st suggestion is that because I am making these from a billet anyway, I can solve the spacing issue of extending the pin to correct the position of the a arm at rest by just building up the pedestal height where the ball joint is, closing the distance between the spindle pinch bolt bore and the top of the a arm.

Jim...., Glen, what do you guys think about this alternative...?

[/IMG]

T

I think I like this idea better than the longer/extended pins.

I have always just run standard length pins, either with the factory arms or aftermarket.

951and944S 09-23-2017 02:15 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 14493262)
Years ago there was a guy on rennlist that machined some sets of front control arms. As far as I know he stopped making them and was trying to sell the plans/business (?), don't know if anything ever went anywhere or what happened to him. I thought the arms looked really good.

Looks like most of the original threads on these have been deleted. There is one discussion still archived where there was a problem with a customer anodizing the arms and had a bad reaction (etching?) between the grade of aluminum and the anodizing bath chemicals. But I can't find the threads giving any more details on these.

I remember all of that going down except the disgruntled guy with the anodized ones.

So much advancement now in CAD since then, you don't need plans, you just take some digital pics, open file in Autocad or Solidworks, Scale one component/feature of the part, like the castor pin bore and the software scales the entire part for you.

T

951and944S 09-23-2017 02:20 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 14493275)
I think I like this idea better than the longer/extended pins.

I have always just run standard length pins, either with the factory arms or aftermarket.

Thought so too originally.

But, alas, not everyone would want lowered arms.

For better or worse, I am most likely going with stock joint positioning with the larger tapered pin, welded to the spindle.

To adjust pin length, I'd have to change out the complete spindle with longer/short pin, not something you'd want to do more than once due to lost camber setting, i.e., realigning.

Gonna settle on a ride height, set pin length and forget about it as a functional tuning feature.

T

V2Rocket 09-23-2017 02:23 PM

if you had a billet arm to use as a "template" you could probably send it to Lindsey Racing or someone like that to duplicate, since they've "got a guy" for making AC delete and dry sump brackets.

Otto Mechanic 09-23-2017 02:27 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14484577)
Well I'll be darned....,

How I missed that in 17 years around here, soon after the forums were created from just an email list is beyond me...:rolleyes:

If there's room for entire threads - "how do I get my drain plug out",

"what brand chamois is everybody running", and

"sun visor clip r & r how to DIY",

then surely there's room for a 944 specific race thread.

:biggulp:

T


It's sort of my experience over the past few years that the racing forum doesn't share a lot of love for 944s and I haven't really figured out why. I can't tell if the 944 folks really have a chip on their shoulder or the 911 folks really are snobs. There's a chance neither one is accurate.

But since the 944 is, without doubt, one of the most common (if not the most common) racing platform, maybe there should be a forum just dedicated to racing 944s and performance mods for it?

I only bring this up because I've been digging around for information on the Sparco Ergo containment seat with removable HALO wings and there's really no single place to look for posts on that subject because the seat fits multiple cars and, in all seriousness, I don't really want to read all the accounts of trials and tribulations surrounding installing them in a 993. I'm sure it's interesting to other folks but I could do without it.

If there were maybe two extra sub categories for each of the "type" categories, e.g. "924/931/944/951/968 Forum", one for "HPDE/TT/Racing" and another for "Performance Modifications", that could improve the experience? That's just one suggestion, I'm sure other organizations might also work.

Go ahead and leave the general racing/performance sections for discussions of things that aren't platform specific, but add platform specific discussions for the things that are.

My $0.02,

V2Rocket 09-23-2017 02:34 PM

944spec forum has a LOT of good info but of course all within their rulebook.

Otto Mechanic 09-23-2017 02:48 PM


Originally Posted by V2Rocket (Post 14493645)
944spec forum has a LOT of good info but of course all within their rulebook.

Without a map to the different classes it's hard for a beginner like me to figure out what applies and what doesn't. 944spec is a very rarified atmosphere :)

Which only goes to show that if they can have their own forum, why can't "the rest of us" :)

951and944S 09-23-2017 05:47 PM


Originally Posted by V2Rocket (Post 14493627)
if you had a billet arm to use as a "template" you could probably send it to Lindsey Racing or someone like that to duplicate, since they've "got a guy" for making AC delete and dry sump brackets.

LOL, I've "got a guy".....!

I have the software packs and when I first started this, I was actually going to buy a 3 or 4 axis machine.

Boeing is currently selling off some of their machinery in Washington state, so clean, well maintained stuff. I also have an owner/operator trucking friend.

Then, I figured, I'd just have these two guys (software and machinist) make my own personal ones and not worry about making them available, with the exception of sharing my design file for anybody that wanted to replicate them near their own locale with their own CNC "guy".

That said, at the tracks themselves, racers come around asking a lot of questions, "what did you do for this", "how did you resolve this". I get racers show up at the next year annual at some of the tracks we race and show me an item that they copied off our car. At the NOLA PCA race, we actually had even the weekend track photographer that came by Sunday during load up and talk for a while, state that he had been all around the track with his press credentials and our car stood out as the best handling car there. So, I think, why shouldn't I profit from this information sharing, be it parts, service, whatever.

Mainly, I'm just too busy. Too many irons in the fire already.

My oulet for sharing some info and experiences is here. When I disappear from here periodically, I just don't have any more time to give.

I work a weekly job, overtime pretty regularly, work on a select customer base's 944s, build some racing manuals and do 3-4 side line automatic transmissions a month. Build and improve our own race cars., etc., etc.
I'm about to build a new two story custom house from the ground up, with me being the general contractor.

If people are interested, after I present these finished arms, I will link them up with the guy that did mine and they can buy them through him if they wish. This guy has built some of the most repeatedly accurate rifles in the country and makes custom gears for the most well known gear related business in the Baton Rouge area.

I'll tell you, with the projects I have, I almost...., came very close to just purchasing existing ones...., I contacted a vendor/friend about it that I will leave nameless. When the returned price link was equal to no relief, I stated that I would build them myself.
The last push for me to do this was his comment in an email reply - "a lot of folks have attempted it....but".

Well...., guess what....?

I aint "a lot of folks".

I will have two working billet arms just like I described here and said I would do.
And they are going to be on the car at the front of the field.

I promise.

T

Otto Mechanic 09-23-2017 05:53 PM

"Then, I figured, I'd just have these two guys (software and machinist) make my own personal ones and not worry about making them available, with the exception of sharing my design file for anybody that wanted to replicate them near their own locale with their own CNC "guy"."

Sure. Absolutely. These software "machinist" guys would just do that stuff for you because you're such a great person?

T, we do this sort of thing for money and also a certain amount of respect. You sort of missed the "respect" part. :)

951and944S 09-23-2017 06:04 PM


Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic (Post 14493908)
"Then, I figured, I'd just have these two guys (software and machinist) make my own personal ones and not worry about making them available, with the exception of sharing my design file for anybody that wanted to replicate them near their own locale with their own CNC "guy"."

Sure. Absolutely. These software "machinist" guys would just do that stuff for you because you're such a great person?

T, we do this sort of thing for money and also a certain amount of respect. You sort of missed the "respect" part.

LOL, the CNC friend only got into machining for the love of it and a plan for him to work at home after retirement.

He owns the most notorious diesel repair shop in a three parish (that;s county to you guys) area.

They call me for help on light and medium truck transmissions from time to time.

I have quite a few "friends" that would jump over a couple of hurdles to help me out.

Plus, he loves my son too and would do almost anything to help him if it's within his capability.

I have two great kids, and as mush as my son excels on the track, he's the same in everything he does.

There are more than a few RL'ers that lurk these threads and read the stuff I write that would vouch for this 100%.

T

Otto Mechanic 09-23-2017 06:15 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14493927)
Plus, he loves my son too and would do almost anything to help him if it's within his capability.

I'm certainly glad he does, and also that he'd do almost anything.

Best Regards,

Oddjob 09-23-2017 06:47 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14493622)
....with the larger tapered pin, welded to the spindle.

Just have someone with experience and knowledge of welding high strength steels do the work. I don't know enough to be certain of anything, but am always concerned with the weakened heat effected zones on high carbon alloy steels. Not sure if a simple post weld treatment is adequate to eliminate residual stresses.

951and944S 09-26-2017 08:56 AM

A lot of projects and things going on, so I'm just now getting a new ball joint in the same arm just to get car off trailer so I didn't have to limp it off on a floor jack.

Quick shout out for the Sloan Kwik Load trailer too while I'm at it. It would have been pretty much impossible for the roll back wrecker to place the car on the trailer without further damage if it hadn't been for the roll back style trailer I have.

Anyways, the culprit - 17mm extended length ball joint pin.
Snapped immediately below the spindle pinch bolt, not at the tapered radius where the stem meets the ball where it's cross section's diameter is lessened during machining.

https://s26.postimg.org/3waqgwcdl/20...59_resized.jpg

The way the two broken pieces fit back together, aligns with the chain of events my son recalled before it completely failed - steering wheel off center before it broke.

https://s26.postimg.org/fhpylq46h/20...48_resized.jpg

T

Otto Mechanic 09-26-2017 03:28 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14498661)
Anyways, the culprit - 17mm extended length ball joint pin.
Snapped immediately below the spindle pinch bolt, not at the tapered radius where the stem meets the ball where it's cross section's diameter is lessened during machining.
T

It looks like it fractured right under the pinch collar? Had it seen many hours of use or was this a "right out of the box" sort of failure? I couldn't tell from the assortment of parts the group of you were discussing in the earlier posts.

I ask because I just rebuilt the ball joints on my aluminum arms. Mine weren't "extended" though, I used the Renbay kit. If you don't mind explaining, what's the purpose of the "extended" pins?

Regards,

Oddjob 09-30-2017 09:49 AM

Another control arm/pin comment, for what it's worth:

Years ago, over 20 at least..... I had spoke with Dave or Jeff Stone (don't recall anymore which one) at Kelly Moss about control arm failures. They had said to retorque the pinch bolt before every event. Replace it anytime it is removed (this is somewhat obvious, as the bolt bends a little when it is torqued down), and to replace it every year. Very apparent that they believed a loose knuckle to ball joint connection would lead to catastrophe.

Now they put a lot of race miles on a car over a single season (with the S2s running endurance races in the IMSA Firestone Firehawk Series), and to this day I still don't replace the bolts annually. But I never reuse them and have the suspension apart often enough that I have gone thru several sets of the pinch bolts/nuts over the years.

Just mentioning here, as it is one more component to keep an eye on when these cars are driven hard.

T&T Racing 12-05-2017 05:37 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 14507737)
Another control arm/pin comment, for what it's worth:

Years ago, over 20 at least..... I had spoke with Dave or Jeff Stone (don't recall anymore which one) at Kelly Moss about control arm failures. They had said to retorque the pinch bolt before every event. Replace it anytime it is removed (this is somewhat obvious, as the bolt bends a little when it is torqued down), and to replace it every year. Very apparent that they believed a loose knuckle to ball joint connection would lead to catastrophe.

Now they put a lot of race miles on a car over a single season (with the S2s running endurance races in the IMSA Firestone Firehawk Series), and to this day I still don't replace the bolts annually. But I never reuse them and have the suspension apart often enough that I have gone thru several sets of the pinch bolts/nuts over the years.

Just mentioning here, as it is one more component to keep an eye on when these cars are driven hard.

I believe there is validity in these recommendations and observations. I was crew chief for Warren Agor Team Monza in 1975-1977. Warren Agor previously raced Camaro's in SCCA and TransAm and finished 4th in the 1972 TransAm Championship. Warren Agor Team Monza built 2 chassis and raced the cars in the IMSA series. The best finished was 3rd place at Mid-Ohio.

The front suspension was upper and lower control arms fabricated from cold rolled seamless steel tubing (All_American made). The lower control arm was fabricated to accept a Moog ball joint. The upper control arm was fabricated with a threaded insert for a high misalignment hemi spherical bearing joint. The spindle was a Pinto. The front tires were 13 x15 and the rear tires were 17x15, Goodyear Racing Slicks.

We had one ball joint failure on the right hand side. All the road racing courses had significantly more right hand corners than left hand corners. The ball joint failed in the taper about 3/4 inch below the castle nut. The ball joint failure was caused by movement in the lower tapered mounting block of the Pinto spindle.

A crew member had not torque the ball joint to 125 ft-lb, but probably the torque from pulling on a 1/2 inch ratchet wrench. Thus the ball joint was not seated for the spring and torsion bar downward force applied to the inside tire (right side) when the car rolled to the left to load the outside tire in a right hand corner. The ball joint diameter near the top elongated and failed in tension.

Just my 0.02

951and944S 03-30-2018 07:17 PM

Well guys, racing was the title even though this thread went in a few different directions.
Have another tale to tell.
Hadn't raced the 944 in the 1st post in quite a while and it still sits with a damaged fender, plans in action to take it to Barber is several weeks but it isn't the topic of this racing post.

A friend of mine bought a former race 968 that was in pretty bad shape, so he, my son (driver) and myself started a long journey not long after I started this thread in totally disassembling the car and slowly rebuilding it over 9+ months. It was intended to be a DE car for my friend and occasionally raced so we opted out of complexity and went with the Koni 474 front shock, converted by True Choice for ride height, bump and rebound adjustability. Koni aluminum body inverted 3012s at the rear.

I went through the transmission, new bearings and synchros (pinion bearing noise) and finished it, installed and tested the entire car 1 week before the 2018 NOLA PCA race at Circuit Grand Bayou.

We had a fuel starvation problem there and found that the used tank we installed while removing a bad fuel cell install by previous owner had a displaced baffle top.
So we threw the car back on scales to recheck all settings, removed transmission again to repair tank, et, etc., stuck some vinyl on the car and dropped it at the track.

My friend's eyesight took a turn for the worse, so my son signed up to race the car instead of his SP2 944.

My son Eon (RL 87_944S) races SP2 so this would be his first SP3 race.
He's a top driver in his own class and there were 9 SP3 cars there ranging from S2s, 944T and one other 968...., 2 time 944 Super Cup champ.
Needless to say, it'd be tough going beating the rest of the cars on a first outing with a barely tested stock bodied car...., on Koni street shocks in the front, no belly pan or batwing and the side gates from the stock 968 rear wing missing.....but to be second and attempt a challenge on a full blown nationally renowned top tier car would be equivalent to David killing Goliath with a slingshot and some stones....:D

Eon gave it a run for the money, propping this car up with 2.0sec per lap on driving skill alone.

Here's how it went.

T

951and944S 03-30-2018 07:20 PM

Car #111, 1992 968, sprint in car view -

Don't give up hope, watch the entire race....., there' a surprise near the end too....:eek:


T

floatingkiwi 04-01-2018 06:54 PM

Nice racing !

951and944S 05-21-2018 09:43 AM

Well, where this thread left off, we substituted the main race car for the 968 for a one off race at NOLA Motorsports in another class up (vid above) because our 944NA SP2 car had snapped a ball joint and dmaged the LF fender, need the LSD redone, etc., etc.

Well, after finishing the transmission, upgraded to the Turbo S thicker clutch discs by surface grinding the pressure rings to make room for the increased thickness, I decided to convert the front end to 944T using parts I already had.

Car uses the "humped" vented nose panel designed for the stacked intercoolers so we could delete the headlight covers/pivots completely, so I turned that into a ram air for the stock airbox.

https://s31.postimg.cc/aoug8u97v/201...14_resized.jpg

I had designed and reconfigured a GT Racing T/S2 splitter years ago and had it laying around so we used it on this car for better cooling and front aero.
It has a set back center and side gates to limit the front air spillage.

https://s31.postimg.cc/9nu7jds4r/201...05_resized.jpg

Here's a close up of the wing side plates that are hand molded fiberglass additions to the GT splitter.
The front bumper cover was a stock piece originally, with the fog and signal light pockets cut out.
It's coated with rock (chip) guard, the same product as the stock rocker panels, to reduce the chances of stone chips from track use.
A textured surface is also more aero friendly...:D
The side marker fillers are 16 gauge steel, painted body color with a backup washer and nut inside.

https://s31.postimg.cc/voajzw86z/201...52_resized.jpg.

T

951and944S 05-21-2018 09:52 AM

Just noticed, in the last pic, you can see the sister car to this one, outside the shop door, identical body work except it's in orange/wht/blk as opposed to green/why/blk.

This is my 210bhp 944S 16V engined SP3 project.

T

floatingkiwi 05-21-2018 06:24 PM

Do you do anything about the stock oil cooler in the S2/968? My oil temp seems very high, >120 degC.

V2Rocket 05-21-2018 06:49 PM

can you fit a small fan somehow?
the 951, S2 and 968 have nice oil coolers but they aren't in a great spot for airflow in.

951and944S 05-21-2018 07:55 PM

We run ducting to a Setrab cooler on the 8v 944 but stock cooler on 968, no fan.

The 968 is a work in progress though with a lot of development to come.

Street, a fan may be a viable route but unless you are on grid waiting on track out signal, there's more cfm going over a ducted cooler than a fan can supply and even then, you are really hoping your warmup period is long enough before tracking out, not looking for cooling.

Usually we don't start engine until driver gets in the seat and is strapping, hooking up cool suit, etc.

There's so much to do that there's not as much time as people think.
Torque wheels after every session, judge and add fuel, check all fluids, look over entire car in general, check cv bolts, rotate tires for optimum wear (may have to adjust pressure specific to corner that tires are shuffled to, for ex, if LF is taking most beating, it would have to have more pressure margin to fall off psi, if you move RR to there, you must correct), bleed brakes several times per weekend, check preload on wheel bearings at least once per weekend, etc., etc., etc.
Generally, we leave cold at 26 psi on Hoosier r7.
These tires at full tilt with a fast driver setting top lap times come up 8psi to 34 hot which thereafter, they fall off top grip and get greasy.

T

Oddjob 08-01-2018 07:14 PM

TIRES:

What hot pressures do you use with R7's (anyone much different than the 34 hot mentioned in the post above)?

And some background info for clarification:
- pressure taken in pit lane right off the track, or back in the paddock
- size of wheel/tires
- weight of car
- duration of typical session/race

autosea 08-01-2018 10:25 PM

Im interested in the modifications you are doing to the 968 motor going into the car. I have 2 SP1 cars live in Washington state. Almost no racing. Im going to put a 968 motor into one of the cars and bring it to Florida end of year. boat of my SP1 motors have been built with the crank cross drilled oil pickup mod, newer pan etc. just wondering about what i should do to the 968 motor

951and944S 08-01-2018 10:48 PM

34 max limit
Pitwall, all sessions except sprint, practice-enduro
2600lb with driver
16x8 phone dials F/R, 245/16/R7

Best heat race lap usually comes in at around 7 laps in. I never go on pitwall for heat/sprints, have it pretty much figured out by then.
In enduro, best laps come 2-3 laps after stop.
The tire is saturated heat wise so I go -2/3psi to leave a couple psi to ceiling if they have actually made it to 34max, sun/temp/weather, difficulty of a battle all play into that.
My goal is to send back into enduro at 31-32.
I pit 3 cars on race weekend, the 2 S2 guys at +60hp and 150lbs, 275/17 F/R want to leave pitstop at 34, so they are ok with targeting 35-36 max.

You can take temps across tire, you can test pressures, etc, etc, (and I do) but your best indicator is going to be what lap number your fast lap comes.
If 1-3, you left with too much pressure, if 80-90% of laps into a session, you left with too little.
In a 12-15 lap sprint, I am looking for fast lap at 7.
If my driver (my son or people I help at track) isn't in P1 by then, he knows he'll have to back off to make a charge or drive a conservative line for a few laps first.

You can also use pressure a a tactic.
Leave high where you will be fastest right at the green then back off 5% while the competition overheats the rubber trying to catch back up.
This both demoralizes and puts the chaser at a disadvantage if he actually does catch up because you have grip left in the bag.

It's hard if you are by yourself and have to take temps after you get out of the car.
Most people overcompensate for distance/time and never take into account that pressure can actually come up because of soak and transfer from the rotors.
That's why I hit tires right away over the wall, except for opening driver door wide open in enduro, attend to driver, check wheel torque, clean windshield etc., after
If you drop pressure to target, finish rest of work and recheck in 3-4 minutes they will be back +2-3 psi from rotor heat through wheels.
Do it it once, do it right away and leave alone.

Man, I love to be at the track......:crying:

T

951and944S 08-01-2018 11:18 PM

Here's a perfect example of what I mean in the long post.
Takes green at P1 SP2 right behind the SP3 group.
Gets a 3-4 second gap to P2 who comes charging too hard to catch back and overdrives his tires.
He manages a pass for the lead but driver of camera car isn't too concerned.....:roflmao:
You can tell by engine tone and line from lap 1-3 that the guy that makes pass for lead is actually holding up camera car.
Stays on his bumper for a lap or two, picks spot (learned from previous lap weakness) and goes back for the lead.
Pulled away at 2-3 seconds per lap from there, set track record for SP2 and finished 30 seconds ahead of P2 at checkers.


T

951and944S 08-01-2018 11:34 PM


Originally Posted by autosea (Post 15184423)
Im interested in the modifications you are doing to the 968 motor going into the car. I have 2 SP1 cars live in Washington state. Almost no racing. Im going to put a 968 motor into one of the cars and bring it to Florida end of year. boat of my SP1 motors have been built with the crank cross drilled oil pickup mod, newer pan etc. just wondering about what i should do to the 968 motor

Southeast has a good representation in SP1 class so I think it'd be a mistake to change your car over and be tossed into GT3 or something where you are only 1 in class.
Even if you bring the car up to 968 weight at 3000 lbs to make it a legal SP3 car, you would need the 6 speed too to be competitive and the top tier are really really quick so you will have to have better suspension and bring your A game as a driver.

On the engine, it's stock other than pan baffle.
The late 104mm blocks have the ported crank main webs and the centrifugal oil drum/sling baffles at upper crankcase that IMO, are each a plus for road racing.

Coming from NWest, maybe take a look at your oil, water, brake cooling in moving a car to Florida.

Good luck,

T

autosea 08-03-2018 12:28 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15184585)
Southeast has a good representation in SP1 class so I think it'd be a mistake to change your car over and be tossed into GT3 or something where you are only 1 in class.
Even if you bring the car up to 968 weight at 3000 lbs to make it a legal SP3 car, you would need the 6 speed too to be competitive and the top tier are really really quick so you will have to have better suspension and bring your A game as a driver.

On the engine, it's stock other than pan baffle.
The late 104mm blocks have the ported crank main webs and the centrifugal oil drum/sling baffles at upper crankcase that IMO, are each a plus for road racing.

Coming from NWest, maybe take a look at your oil, water, brake cooling in moving a car to Florida.

Good luck,

T

Thanks for your great insight. PCA racing is not popular in the west. Im not sure why. All the classes are in one run group. Usually a few newer cups, mixed old cups some alphabet cars but mostly Boxters. I think the 16 valve 3.0 will keep me in pace with at least half of the boxters. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f79d0a80bd.jpg

autosea 08-03-2018 12:36 PM

This is my car i want to put the 16 valve into.https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8d86c068ce.jpg

951and944S 08-03-2018 02:24 PM

Nice...., all 3 of the colors on my paint scheme too....:D

And yeah, the Boxsters can be a problem, a 944 8v SP1 and 2 catches most Boxster/drivers then they just walk away in the straights.
Tough when you are trying to guard your position with a competitor closing on you, you are faster overall in a total lap but you just can't get by them.
Luckily for us, we know a lot of the S/SE drivers and they tend to be pretty fair.
For the ones that aren't, the others will give them a little side talk....:roflmao:

It used to be such a problem, we coined a term for it.... "Boxster Hell".

Any of the SP3s have enough potential power that with a good driver, the Boxsters pretty much melt away.
With the extra power, you'll want a bigger wheel than those 15s.
Wheel choices pretty limited with early offset.

T

Oddjob 09-09-2018 08:23 PM

Lone 944T in E Class at Road America last weekend. This run group had a split start with the SPEC 944s, so about 30 E and F cars in the front half and maybe another 20 in the SPEC group taking the green about a minute later.


mel_t_vin 09-10-2018 02:28 AM

Pretty smooth driving, Jim. Is that you in your [replica] Turbo Cup?

Oddjob 09-10-2018 01:54 PM


Originally Posted by mel_t_vin (Post 15278449)
Pretty smooth driving, Jim. Is that you in your [replica] Turbo Cup?

Nope, not me. I was there with the G-Car but in a different run group.

951and944S 09-10-2018 05:37 PM

Hmm, the 911 SCs definitely have advantage in E, no doubt....., they even have custom wheels, etc.
The fast ones are hard to beat with a 944, that's why everybody was leaving PCA and moving to NASA until PCA went with the SPEC classes to stop the bleeding.

A 944T should fair pretty decent though.

Definitely track dependent (I'd expect the 944T to shine at RA) but at Hallet for example, my son Eon can beat 1/2-2/3 of the E 911s in his NA SP2 car.....:roflmao:

At the link, 5/30 overall with a slew of 911s behind, only 11 seconds behind winner (Jim Buckley = no slouch) at checkers in a 14 lap sprint -

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/3307150

T

curtisr 09-12-2018 09:49 AM

My work-in-progress is progressing.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ffb1c201b0.jpg

Oddjob 09-12-2018 10:42 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15279850)
Hmm, the 911 SCs definitely have advantage in E, no doubt....., they even have custom wheels, etc.
The fast ones are hard to beat with a 944, that's why everybody was leaving PCA and moving to NASA until PCA went with the SPEC classes to stop the bleeding.

A 944T should fair pretty decent though.

Definitely track dependent (I'd expect the 944T to shine at RA) but at Hallet for example, my son Eon can beat 1/2-2/3 of the E 911s in his NA SP2 car.....:roflmao:

At the link, 5/30 overall with a slew of 911s behind, only 11 seconds behind winner (Jim Buckley = no slouch) at checkers in a 14 lap sprint -

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/3307150

T

The 3.2 Carreras are maybe quicker now than the Euro SCs. The accumoto cars had yank on the buckley cars at Road America. They were all on low profile 15's. Poeltl was too in SP3. I didn't see any other SP3 cars on 15's.

The 951s can maybe compete in E at long tracks like Road America and BIR, have never run Daytona but maybe there. Not sure of a track like Sebring. Shorter tracks the tall gearing and weight is a big disadvantage vs the 911s.

mrgreenjeans 09-13-2018 12:07 AM

Sweet driving Jim.

You are a master of smoothness.
Thanks for posting your video

951and944S 09-13-2018 11:13 AM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 15286109)
The 3.2 Carreras are maybe quicker now than the Euro SCs. The accumoto cars had yank on the buckley cars at Road America. They were all on low profile 15's. Poeltl was too in SP3. I didn't see any other SP3 cars on 15's.

The 951s can maybe compete in E at long tracks like Road America and BIR, have never run Daytona but maybe there. Not sure of a track like Sebring. Shorter tracks the tall gearing and weight is a big disadvantage vs the 911s.

Agree, a very very close buddy of mine (gave me his SP2 car when he moved to E) used to say, before jumping on the Buckley train, "[email protected] 911s fast on the straights and park in the corners"....:roflmao:

That all seemed to change when he made the move to the SC.

He was several races in, in his new 'Cult of E SCs', you know, it's like a former cigarette smoker........, he could never say enough bad things about the "waterheads", the "volkwagen", you have heard them all....., so we are sitting at a lunch table at Hallet looking at the time sheets...., I had never been there and I was racing his former SP2 car, my son hadn't either but he was 23 and learned a track so fast it's really unbelievable (:crying: ) .
So my buddy goes on, I guess out of 944 deprivation ammo, he turns to me about my lap times, etc. etc., but when I showed him that I had been faster than him in his own car, he turned back to degrading the 944s.
So I slid the sheet back over and asked him how come my son was 1.5 seconds faster than him in his new Buckley E car on the brand new Hoosier/custom wheel combo and Eon on used Hankooks...:roflmao:

Look at any of the vids I post, there's usually an E car holding up Eon in his SP2 somewhere in the sprint.

I don't think it's fair to say "a 944T can (or cannot) be competitive in E".

It depends on who set the car up.

It depends on who is driving it.

T

951and944S 09-13-2018 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by mrgreenjeans (Post 15286270)
Sweet driving Jim.

You are a master of smoothness.
Thanks for posting your video

Oddjob - " Nope, not me. I was there with the G-Car but in a different run group. "

T

951and944S 09-13-2018 11:56 AM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 15286109)
The 3.2 Carreras are maybe quicker now than the Euro SCs. The accumoto cars had yank on the buckley cars at Road America. They were all on low profile 15's. Poeltl was too in SP3. I didn't see any other SP3 cars on 15's.

The 951s can maybe compete in E at long tracks like Road America and BIR, have never run Daytona but maybe there. Not sure of a track like Sebring. Shorter tracks the tall gearing and weight is a big disadvantage vs the 911s.

Went check out RA weekend to see how SP3 played out and hell Jim, 2.39.2 race lap in Sprint 2 aint too shabby.
That kind of pace would have put you above the crease in E and mid pack in SP3.

I took a look see and your best laps come in at L7 and L11 in the two sprints.
Was this on the R7 or the Kooks...?

Great going.

Way up thread is the vid I posted the one-off when Eon drove the stock 968 (development-wise) and nearly beat Hiffman's full tilt racer at NOLA.
Had we had the handling better sorted (new platform to us - set it up night before race with no real testing), given the straight line speed differential to Hiffman's high drag car, I think Eon could have wasted him at NOLA.
Now, as a yard stick, Dennis was only 1/sec off Poetl at RA and Dunne was only .200 back FL/FL in sprint 2.
I think had we installed the new shocks we have for the 968, tweaked and tested setup a little, Eon could have been racing Dunne and Poetl for P1 at RA.

T

Oddjob 09-13-2018 11:32 PM

Unfortunately, 2:39 for a G car at Road America is nearly embarrassing... Had 37's and 38's in practice on Friday and Saturday. Lot's of GTB1 and SPEC Caymans and SPEC 996/997 cars this year. Pretty hard to run with them. Didn't get a hot qual lap in due to rain during the session, so started in the back of the pack in the sprints. Never got in a rhythm. Practiced on the R7's and ran the sprints on C51s.

Ran 2:34 and 35's the last time I club raced in 2014 and 35's and 36's in DE's since. So need to go back and look for the speed.

Here's a clip of the last couple laps of the first sprint race. Picked up a rock or bolt, put a hole in the radiator. Noticed the water temp pegging the gage going down the back straight, so immediately short shifted and coasted off at turn 5. White 964 is a progressed RS America, short R/P and big front brakes. He had enough yank out of the corners that I struggled getting a run on him out of the carousel and out of the kink - couldn't get my timing right.



Borrowed a radiator from Karl Poeltl (Racer's Edge), swapped it out in between the sprint races, and did start and finish the second sprint. But was still slow.

951and944S 09-14-2018 12:46 AM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 15288714)
Unfortunately, 2:39 for a G car at Road America is nearly embarrassing... Had 37's and 38's in practice on Friday and Saturday.


Borrowed a radiator from Karl Poeltl (Racer's Edge), swapped it out in between the sprint races, and did start and finish the second sprint. But was still slow.

Don't understand being so hard on yourself.
Poeltl himself is 2+ seconds off 2017 fast lap so could be track shape/conditions.

Next, in G, I'm guessing you are Escort Cup classed at 2920 @250bhp...?
Basically you are 951S SP3 as far as weight/power, taking your lap times from G to SP3 would have put you mid pack.

Unless you think even that would be a disappointment, I don't know.

As far as the video, never driven there, never even been to RA, have some experience with a heavy 944T on track though and it looks like you are turning in too early.

Curious too, 1-2 sec/lap faster on the R7 in practice...., why race the Hankooks..?

We would do the opposite, practice/warmup on the slower tire, mount the running shoes for the races....:D

T


Oddjob 09-15-2018 12:12 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15288859)
Don't understand being so hard on yourself. Poeltl himself is 2+ seconds off 2017 fast lap so could be track shape/conditions.

Next, in G, I'm guessing you are Escort Cup classed at 2920 @250bhp...? Basically you are 951S SP3 as far as weight/power, taking your lap times from G to SP3 would have put you mid pack.

As far as the video, never driven there, never even been to RA, have some experience with a heavy 944T on track though and it looks like you are turning in too early. Curious too, 1-2 sec/lap faster on the R7 in practice...., why race the Hankooks..?

All good questions. I'm still somewhat competitive. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be racing. I don't expect to win, but don't like being in the back of the pack.

The Escort/Cup cars are allowed to run higher boost, so the car should make 270-280 bhp. It can pull the SP3 cars on longer straights. But the S2 SP3 cars weigh less and have the 3.88 rear end, which does help on certain tracks. And some, like the Eurosport cars running wide bodies, wider tires and aero, have some advantage thru the corners.

The R7s were left over practice/race tires from previous events. Had sticker Hankooks for qual and the sprint races. I believe the hankooks would have been as fast or faster (because they were new compared to the heat cycled R7s), felt fine on the car, I just didn't get any good/clear laps in qual or the races.

Not sure if I am consistently turning-in early. My line is not perfect for sure, but I think I am having more problem with over slowing into the corners. And my transitions are a little rough which makes the car unstable and feel loose. I do see that I was getting abrupt with the turn-in, not a smooth dialing down to the apex, but more yanking the wheel at the turn-in point. Function of getting undisciplined in the middle of a frustrating race, and maybe having developed some bad habits dealing with the heavier manual steering over the years. I do need to work on that.

I am thinking about messing with spring rates. Maybe going softer all around, and less rear spring balance. Make the car a little smoother over high speed bumps, so it doesn't bounce around too much. Get a little more push in the car, so can trail brake more on turn-in to keep the nose down. Karl was talking about his current setup which is much less rear spring than a few years ago.




951and944S 09-15-2018 03:59 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 15292156)

I am thinking about messing with spring rates. Maybe going softer all around, and less rear spring balance. Make the car a little smoother over high speed bumps, so it doesn't bounce around too much. Get a little more push in the car, so can trail brake more on turn-in to keep the nose down. Karl was talking about his current setup which is much less rear spring than a few years ago.

LOL, I have been preaching this here for years.

What shock you on...?

T

Oddjob 09-15-2018 05:00 PM

I'm on koni dbl adjs, 8742 fronts, 3012 rears.

I always used to run less spring than the crowd, and lower rear balance so the car had some push. But the local shop was setting the 944s up with 750 fr, 800 rr w/ T-bars, Karl was running 700/1050 (no effective T-bar) a few years back, and others were in that range. So I crept up to those rates and balance. Seemed fine for a few years. But now the car seems to be jumping around too much and is a little too tail happy (rear tires, even with 275s or 285s, are gaining about a psi more than the fronts hot). The home track is starting to wear and slow, it's getting rougher. Also not sure if the shocks need a refresh, or my style/preference is changing, but my sense is to soften the car up a little. Was interested to hear that Karl was also talking about softening up the rear balance. Not so much overall rate, but was now running less rear spring compared to the front.

Also an interesting note, my real Escort/Cup car was raced in IMSA Supercar and SCCA World Challenge in the early 90's running 250 lb/in springs front and rear. At the time, the team/shop believed the factory Cup progressive springs were too stiff for the weight of the car (it was down to about 2600).

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1505f16ea0.jpg

951and944S 09-15-2018 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 15292654)
I'm on koni dbl adjs, 8742 fronts, 3012 rears.

I always used to run less spring than the crowd, and lower rear balance so the car had some push. But the local shop was setting the 944s up with 750 fr, 800 rr w/ T-bars, Karl was running 700/1050 (no effective T-bar) a few years back, and others were in that range. So I crept up to those rates and balance. Seemed fine for a few years. But now the car seems to be jumping around too much and is a little too tail happy. The home track is starting to wear and slow, it's getting rougher. Also not sure if the shocks need a refresh, or my style/preference is changing, but my sense is to soften the car up a little. Was interested to hear that Karl was also talking about softening up the rear balance. Not so much overall rate, but was now running less rear spring compared to the front.

Jim, probably has more to do with the tire.
Think about it a minute, the tire is an integral part of the suspension and people are coming around to the logic that the springs are too stiff.
What other thing changed in the last couple of years..?
The change to the R7.
A move to Hoosier from BFG and Hankook was an unnoticeable change (other than 1/sec/lap) for us because we already are softer sprung and maybe a hint as to why you aren't seeing an obvious increase in confidence and performance on them.
I doubt the answer is a combination of multiple variables (you're questioning your driving, your shocks, your increased age, your this, your that) when all along the answer is simple.

That said, the 3012 is tricky.

If you have rebound too stiff, that shock will actually jacked the rear down over multiple bumps before it recovers which amplifies a problem because this stiffens the spring and causes oversteer + a jumpy, chattery feel to the rear.

How long is it until you run your car again..?

For our Sp2 cars, one we used for a once/year enduro with 4 drivers, each, down to a man, all experienced drivers, has commented either "how well/stable/neutral the car was compared to their own" or that this car is "better than my setup and so easy to drive", we have tuned by 25# increments up/down to settle where we are now, which, whether coincidental or not, is pretty close to the mathematically correct formula. From the times I have seen RE car with the 15s in the rear, it's not just the size/profile of the tire, but the rear ride height setting that would explain why softer rear could pay 2 dividends, increased rear traction and the ability to get away with it because with negative rake, weight transfer under braking would be less...., and the normal transfer is negated by the out of proportion front stiffness which keeps the rake consistent, thus on/off throttle inputs cause less of a differential.
Unless you know the full details of the setup, I would not expect improvements when just applying parts of the setup to another car.
For a driver that is smooth on the inputs, they are already achieving this due solely to style of driving.
Keep in mind, in looking for any/all effects of setup, positive rake is aerodynamically superior.

What I do as a baseline for people who ask, is formulate spring rates as - our current setup x a % of increase in weight of the other car's race weight.
So, for a 2920# car (our 968 project is 2900), I take our current weight of car/driver of 2600 # and figure our front as F & R X 12% for your 2920# car.
From there, you are in a window where the shocks we use with remote cannister pressure can fine tune, finer than a minimum available increase in spring rate at 25# increments can achieve.

It would be some work and a small expense (comparably) but if you are up to trusting/trying, I can ship you a spare set of Ledas with correct springs (assuming I have the exact increment for your 2920# car) for you to try. You'll need a local source for nitrogen with a regulator (not a normal welding version limited to max) capable of 150psi. I can even loan you the cannister adjusting tool/gauge.
Compared to what you are on, the car's attitude stays stable while the shocks do the work.
The past philosophy was to to stiffen the car to eliminate pitch and roll.
These incidents are a product of physical dynamics of a race car.
You need to allow some roll and pitch, allow the suspension to work to get mechanical grip, not try to negate them totally.
This is what places too much duty on the tire as a suspension component.
The interface between the entire car's contributing components to the actual track surface, a component of the car as a whole that has the most variable between new/old, hot/cold, high/low pressure is not something to bank consistent suspension performance on but with springs that don't allow suspension articulation, this is exactly what you are doing.

T

Otto Mechanic 12-18-2018 12:02 AM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 14478230)
There isn't enough racing content here in the 944 forums to reflect the amount of guys that track the model.
T

Hey T, I thought I'd try reviving an old thread that's languished over the off season and bring up something near to me heart. I gather from a thread on the Racing Forum Porsche probably has the highest percentage of owner participation in racing of all other marques, but it's still less than 2%, i believe 1.6% was quoted.

I think more folks would engage in racing if there was a class designed for street cars, that is to say cars that still have enough of an interior to be usable by two people (sort of implies a passenger seat) and has some of the basic creature comforts. I'm most familiar with the factory motorsports cars built for the Firehawk series naturally, but I'm sure there must be other examples.

I'm thinking of a third SP3 class, maybe call it SP3 Street, to go along with Prepared and Stock? Put a higher weight limit on it to allow things like A/C and carpet. Allow bolt-in removable front cages. Not much else would need to change.

It seems there is an emphasis among the racing culture today on cars that are absolutely built for dedicated track use, which is fine. But there's still a group of people who would like to take a well prepared DE car, one with a half cage, containment seats, harnesses, fire suppression and HANS, and actually race their cars without sacrificing their dashboard, permanently blocking their doors, tearing out the door cards and carpet, etc.

Seems to me there'd be much more interest if there were classes set up for racing "street" cars. Think so?

951and944S 12-18-2018 08:48 AM


Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic (Post 15504355)
Hey T, I thought I'd try reviving an old thread that's languished over the off season and bring up something near to me heart. I gather from a thread on the Racing Forum Porsche probably has the highest percentage of owner participation in racing of all other marques, but it's still less than 2%, i believe 1.6% was quoted.

I think more folks would engage in racing if there was a class designed for street cars, that is to say cars that still have enough of an interior to be usable by two people (sort of implies a passenger seat) and has some of the basic creature comforts. I'm most familiar with the factory motorsports cars built for the Firehawk series naturally, but I'm sure there must be other examples.

I'm thinking of a third SP3 class, maybe call it SP3 Street, to go along with Prepared and Stock? Put a higher weight limit on it to allow things like A/C and carpet. Allow bolt-in removable front cages. Not much else would need to change.

It seems there is an emphasis among the racing culture today on cars that are absolutely built for dedicated track use, which is fine. But there's still a group of people who would like to take a well prepared DE car, one with a half cage, containment seats, harnesses, fire suppression and HANS, and actually race their cars without sacrificing their dashboard, permanently blocking their doors, tearing out the door cards and carpet, etc.

Seems to me there'd be much more interest if there were classes set up for racing "street" cars. Think so?

Could be that your idea would draw in more participants.

Couple of points to consider though.

1) There are already stock classes for what would be an SP1, 2 and 3. Don't recall all the letter groups right now but for instance, most SP3 cars would be F stock.
Even within SP3 proper, a large portion of the cars that fit in this class are able to keep dash, door cards, etc, because the power/weight determines final race curb weight and for instance, a 968 and a 944TS have to weigh in at 2900 and 3000 respectively. There is even a place for Jim's Cup in G stock and a 968 Firehawk in F stock at 3050 lbs, so...., not much you are gonna be shaving off that one.
2) To meet safety requirements (insurance) there's no way PCA would allow 1/2 cage cars on track with full blown race cars competing for the same high speed corner.
So...., that would leave the possibility of a separate run group for cars with 1/2 cage only and the format schedule barely allows enough track time as it is. For instance, SP1, 2 and 3, run a split start with Boxsters sometimes just to make use of a race weekend day's time.
More to that point...., some instances, an enduro, inverted start, fun race, etc., have ALL cars grouped together.
If you had ever been on track with 996/7 Cup cars in a 944, you'd already know that the potential risk just due to the difference in closing speed can be very intimidating.
3) The fastest DE groups are already seasoned guys really hauling the mail. Behind the scenes, even though it's not documented as a race result, there are friendly rivalries going on within the fast DE groups which are basically, "pass anywhere" as opposed to the "greener" groups that have 1-2 passing zones with a point by.

Outside of PCA, - and by the way, this year's Mardi Gras Region NOLA Motorsport's Park PCA race in February will run in conjunction with the NASA event - there is always 'Time Attack' of which there are multiple classes. You + your car, open track attempt at fast lap for your class...., still a competition with way less risk of colliding with something.

Personally, re. your idea, I think that the people in your group are generally people who value more in preserving their machines from track damage.
One hot start at the green with 60 cars in a 2 x 2 lineup going wide open throttle and jockeying for T1 would be enough to scare them off of door to door racing...:D

T

GPA951s 12-18-2018 02:34 PM

BTW Walt is getting Facts and Figures to find out exactly what made came factory on the Rothmans Turbo cup Cars that allowed in "G" Stock. If they get that hashed out, That's what I am going to aim for. At least on paper there will be a really good chance of running well as opposed to being the one of the heaviest cars in F Stock, Plus boost goes to 1 Bar in G Stock. They are working this out to attract more 951's... Problem is there really isn't any "Spec" Sheet, There is plenty of knowledge ...Mag intakes , Mag wheels, ect ect but we are looking for documented proof... that is proving difficult.

951and944S 12-18-2018 09:02 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15505411)
BTW Walt is getting Facts and Figures to find out exactly what made came factory on the Rothmans Turbo cup Cars that allowed in "G" Stock. If they get that hashed out, That's what I am going to aim for. At least on paper there will be a really good chance of running well as opposed to being the one of the heaviest cars in F Stock, Plus boost goes to 1 Bar in G Stock. They are working this out to attract more 951's... Problem is there really isn't any "Spec" Sheet, There is plenty of knowledge ...Mag intakes , Mag wheels, ect ect but we are looking for documented proof... that is proving difficult.

I don't get it....?
951s are gonna flock to G stock to weigh +120 lbs from where they were in SP3 and be competitive vs Cayman PDK....?

You are making a mistake.

Look at the big tracks, Sebring, Daytona, Road America...., fields of 20 SP3 cars each event...., 2-3 G cars total.

Is G stock big at the tracks near you Glen...?

Watkins shows 6 G cars at PCA race 2018, 18 SP3 cars.

What's worse, you will be grouped with cars way out of the 944T's league.
Doesn't seem like a big deal until you are always on the outside of turns letting GTC cars lap you every 3-4 turns.

Seems more wise to configure your car for SP3, run with large group of cars on close to equal footing/lap times, usually run grouped with Boxsters, of which 50-75% you can pass competitively on track.
Wait it out and see what Dericola/PCA comes up with to even stuff out.
Personally though, I don't see how a 944T can't be "competitive" vs a 100lb lighter S2 or a 100 lb heavier 968.
Can they dominate....?
Maybe not, but I think a top tier driver in a well running, properly set up 944T should fair pretty well.

T

951and944S 12-18-2018 09:05 PM

Addendum, your car is 951S I see.

Is that right..?

T

951and944S 12-19-2018 09:42 AM

What better place to lay this out here for discussion-

There are three dedicated classes for the 944/968 platform.

SP1 is self explanatory since it's a Spec class with maximum 140 RWHP, only approved shocks, wheels, tires, etc. open to all 944NA 8V, except the '89 2.7L

SP2 is pretty much the same as far as engine mods but allows '89 2.7L with a weight penalty and similar configurations (944T brakes) that incur same.
Difference is, there are two sub categories here, "stock" and prepared", DME chips, wheel/tire, a few other items separate the two.

Happy to get into fine detail with either of those two classes as most of our track friends race SP1 and our main run class for the past several years has been SP2 Prepared but, since my own current focus is on a build up of one of the allowable formats and most attention seems to be related to SP3, let's dig into the details of the most diverse class for the 944 platform,

Eligible cars -
1987-88 Porsche 944S
1986-89 Porsche 944 Turbo
1989-91 Porsche 944S2
1992-95 Porsche 968

Legal weights (with driver) -
944S - 2500
944T - 2900
944S2 - 2800
944TS - 3000
968 - 2900

Factory stated Horsepower/Torque vs. minimum weight (power to weight ratio) (Specs from Clarks)

944S 188/170 (2500/188) = 13.29 lbs per hp
944T 220/243 (2900/220) = 13.18 lbs per hp
944S2 208/207 (2800/208) = 13.46 lbs per hp
944TS 250/258 (3000/250) = 12.00 lbs per hp
968 236/225 (2900/236) = 12.28 lbs per hp

Every car is illegible for a long list of non-stock allowances.
The 944S "cams are free - must retain hydraulic lifters"
944T & TS are allowed Lindsey Racing Clubgate wastegate, max boost 12.5psi.

On paper, the 944T & TS should be handicapped more, not less, based on torque advantage alone...;)

What seems to be the problem....?

T

951and944S 12-19-2018 09:54 AM

For the record, G stock 944 Turbo Playboy Escort Canadian Cup Spec'd car, limited to "1 bar boost" at 2920 allowable minimum weight comes in at 11.68 lbs per hp.
A whopping 5 ounces (.32 lb) per hp better than the SP3 944TS.

Is this worth hunting down parts and going through the trouble to configure to G stock...?

Looking at real race results, fast lap from leading G stock cars are within 2-3 10nths of fastest SP3 times, same track, same event.

If a 944T and TS don't have a chance (according to their owners) in SP3, then they have about the same chance in G stock, except that being beaten by 17 cars per event, they get beat by 2-3...:D

So, give the 944T cars all 1 bar boost in SP3 and call it a day.

Honestly, I think the cars should be tested in rules compliance form by a trusted entity, Karl Poeltl or another trusted national racer, all 5 variants, same track, same day to evaluate the status quo and eliminate the driver form the equation.

T

GPA951s 12-19-2018 10:46 AM

Yes, Mine is a TS, But according to SP3 Rules the only difference that isn't "Free" is the Turbocharger itself.(The Brakes the LSD all free) ..So According to the Rule book the "Regular 86" Turbo is allowed 2800 not 2900... and the TS 3000, . That would be a no brainer for me to backdate Bolt on my 86 Turbocharger and run at 2800, Lighter than a 968 but they have 6 speeds... That is more than likely where I will end up, but I still have a way to go...
It all comes down to what is the most "FUN" lets face it that's why we do it.. Its just not Fun to run in the back.

951and944S 12-19-2018 11:51 AM

Yeah, I see that, 2019, all 944T is 2800.

Pfft, what are you waiting for....?

That's +70 lb/ft torque over the 944S.

Really, no way they should allow either turbo car more boost.

I would say, after way long a road and much invested, that it's ME barking up the wrong tree with the 2.5L 16V but....., we have a 968 to race too, so....

T

GPA951s 12-19-2018 12:22 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15507377)
Yeah, I see that, 2019, all 944T is 2800.

Pfft, what are you waiting for....?

T

- More Money and More Talent :cheers:

951and944S 12-19-2018 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15507453)
- More Money and More Talent :cheers:

Hah hah, what do you need, maybe I can help...?

K26...?

T

Otto Mechanic 12-20-2018 01:14 AM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15504683)
Could be that your idea would draw in more participants.

Sorry it took awhile to get back, thanks for the reply. I've been dismantling my dashboard the past week trying to fix my jammed up ignition switch.


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15504683)
Couple of points to consider though.

1) There are already stock classes for what would be an SP1, 2 and 3. Don't recall all the letter groups right now but for instance, most SP3 cars would be F stock.

Even within SP3 proper, a large portion of the cars that fit in this class are able to keep dash, door cards, etc, because the power/weight determines final race curb weight and for instance, a 968 and a 944TS have to weigh in at 2900 and 3000 respectively. There is even a place for Jim's Cup in G stock and a 968 Firehawk in F stock at 3050 lbs, so...., not much you are gonna be shaving off that one.

I'd seen that as well and notice the weight limit on my '89 S2 are the highest in the SP3 class, almost guaranteeing a place at the back of the pack? Today GPA951s mentioned it wasn't all that fun to run at the back all the time and I can sort of understand his point. If I were to carefully observe the SP3 weights I might be able to trade a cool suit box for A/C if I could roll up the windows and use my turn signals but that doesn't seem likely.

What I'm really proposing is a "street" class. One that caters to folks who want to keep their cars street legal but also have fun racing them safely, and safety seems the largest concern because the cage is the biggest problem. I've found a cage ( http://www.stableenergies.com/Safety...nfo/SD%2DP944/ ) that looks like it could solve that for me but I don't know for sure. It seems the front of it can be removed while keeping the rear cage in place. No idea how much time it might take to do that so comments appreciated. Also not sure how much it might effect the dash. The basic idea is to find a half to full cage conversion that could allow a street car to show up for a race with no more than a day's effort to install/uninstall the front of the cage. One that didn't require permanent mods to the dash or other interior components.

Everything else being equal, I think if I could solve the cage problem I could build a car that was safe to race without removing all the carpet, modifying the dash, dropping the A/C, the door cards, etc. But if that could be done, it would still help if the sanctioning body recognized an SP3 "Street" class just for weight reasons.


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15504683)
2) To meet safety requirements (insurance) there's no way PCA would allow 1/2 cage cars on track with full blown race cars competing for the same high speed corner.

So...., that would leave the possibility of a separate run group for cars with 1/2 cage only and the format schedule barely allows enough track time as it is. For instance, SP1, 2 and 3, run a split start with Boxsters sometimes just to make use of a race weekend day's time. More to that point...., some instances, an enduro, inverted start, fun race, etc., have ALL cars grouped together.

If you had ever been on track with 996/7 Cup cars in a 944, you'd already know that the potential risk just due to the difference in closing speed can be very intimidating.

I understand, which is why I was asking about the bolt-in cage I mentioned above. Maybe it isn't a working solution now, maybe it isn't a solution at all. If it isn't a solution, and there is no acceptable full cage solution, then I agree it would mean having a separate run group for 1/2 cage cars. We might estimate the size of that group by looking at the size of the advanced DE groups, since that's the group that would be most likely to race their cars if the sanctioning body (PCA, NASA, SCCA, etc.) decided to recognize them. In your opinion, is that a large group? My experience has been it is?

The real truth is I don't want to be running my 1989 944 S2 with all of maybe 210hp, on the same track as a 650+ hp full blown circa 2016 (2005) 996 Cup Car, you're right about that. There's no real competition for corners in that pairing and it's not a whole lot of fun. I'd venture it never will be, regardless of how much weight I drop off the 944 or how my cage is built?


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15504683)
3) The fastest DE groups are already seasoned guys really hauling the mail. Behind the scenes, even though it's not documented as a race result, there are friendly rivalries going on within the fast DE groups which are basically, "pass anywhere" as opposed to the "greener" groups that have 1-2 passing zones with a point by.

Which supports my point; some level of "racing" is already happening but we don't call it racing, instead it's "friendly" competition without point bys. I'm just suggesting we call it what it is and develop it. It seems like there really are folks that already participate?


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15504683)
Outside of PCA, - and by the way, this year's Mardi Gras Region NOLA Motorsport's Park PCA race in February will run in conjunction with the NASA event - there is always 'Time Attack' of which there are multiple classes. You + your car, open track attempt at fast lap for your class...., still a competition with way less risk of colliding with something.

I understand that as well, but you and I both also understand it's not quite the same as racing. Not that it isn't fun by itself, but it's really more like autocross.


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15504683)
Personally, re. your idea, I think that the people in your group are generally people who value more in preserving their machines from track damage.

One hot start at the green with 60 cars in a 2 x 2 lineup going wide open throttle and jockeying for T1 would be enough to scare them off of door to door racing...:D
T

I can't agree. The folks already involved with the more advanced DE events are risking their cars now. Somehow I don't think a hot start would discourage all of them, or even most. Maybe that's a subject worthy of a poll?

Best Regards,

Otto Mechanic 12-20-2018 04:59 AM

PS: It's been suggested in a sort of backhanded way (once and only once to my knowledge) that we need to be careful about characterizing DE events or anything resembling them as racing for insurance reasons, even to the point of not mandating race level safety equipment for DE events just in case it might blur the lines between training and practice, thereby driving up track fees, so if that's correct maybe it would be best for someone to knock twice on the cold water pipe or something? What I'm saying is I'm not looking at the politics of this, I'm a technical guy who doesn't quite understand why we can't do it if there's a big enough group of members who'd like to?

Not trying to stir up muck, just trying to build a car.

Regards,

GPA951s 12-20-2018 10:57 AM


Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic (Post 15509359)
PS: It's been suggested in a sort of backhanded way (once and only once to my knowledge) that we need to be careful about characterizing DE events or anything resembling them as racing for insurance reasons, even to the point of not mandating race level safety equipment for DE events just in case it might blur the lines between training and practice, thereby driving up track fees, so if that's correct maybe it would be best for someone to knock twice on the cold water pipe or something? What I'm saying is I'm not looking at the politics of this, I'm a technical guy who doesn't quite understand why we can't do it if there's a big enough group of members who'd like to?

Not trying to stir up muck, just trying to build a car.

Regards,

I believe what all the "Letter Classes" are exactly a "Street Car" with safety gear, hence why they are so heavy. I know people that Race with AC compressors on, Carpet in ECT. As far as the cage, Sure you can bolt and unbolt the front part. You cant see from the pictures but my car has a plate on it, Full Cage Full Race Suspension.. Drove it down the thruway this year to Cars and Coffee. (No Race Tires) My Cage is built so I cannot hit my head anywhere on it when I am seated, its tight and way out of the way... No matter what though unless you live in Canada where the Roads are smooth... Race suspension Sucks on the street..The Race Clutch is a whole other animal when pulling away from lights... and if you're going to run street suspension then you will be slow on track... its ok for cars and coffee or to take the car out for a rip on the street to test out new go fast goodies...but I Enjoy my factory seats in my street car and AC, and smooth ride and AMP and Stereo...
If you are going to Race the price of the build is a small price.. Just one race weekend will cost you at least 2K with no return... its all for fun..
As far as the Safety gear for DE.... Why not? They outlawed harness bars as an anchor point.. you now have to have a HANS device if you're running harnesses. They are trying to keep the insurance LOWER by adding all this safety gear... and believe T when he says its a whole different world when you're competing for real-estate when going for a corner with a whole bunch of other cars NOT at all like DE... 3 and 4 wide into the first corner, Ive done it, and im surprised more people don't get "Leaned on" but I came from NASCAR racing where it was "Full contact" sport.. That's the appeal for me in club racing.. I don't have any delusion that my car wont get damaged but I also can fix anything, including a new tub if need be. (Have 2 in the woods)

T- I have a K 26, Thanks.. Got to send it to Tim for a rebuild though... :thumbup:

951and944S 12-20-2018 11:23 AM

@ GPA951s , lol yep, good explanation.

I know at our local track (NOLA is 2nd closest for us), it's two completely different insurance rates for "open lapping" days versus a "race".

And on race days, you have to have two certified (probably way more on a big circuit like COTA) EMS guys sitting in the vehicle with engine running at all times just off track, aimed such that they can go go go at a second's notice. Also, every station has to be manned whereas on a DE or lapping day, you can just man every other station.

On the competitive racing versus anything else...., drivers just don't know until they actually experienced the difference.
That's why they actually hold the "Fun Race" sessions, to acclimate new race rookies on what the hot starts are really like.
In DE, missing a flag is part of the learning experience, in race conditions, it can be catastrophic.

And again, right on the mark with the "Stock" classes, it wasn't until people starting stripping out the 944s and 968s to run in SP classes that they even had to remove A/C and other amenities since in F and E stock, the weight was such that it was not necessary and was just another complication.

T

951and944S 12-20-2018 06:17 PM

2018 PCA National Championship Winners

SP1 1st Mitchell Butaud
SP1 2nd Jose Ayala
SP1 3rd Steve Coomes

SP2 1st Kevin Palmer
SP2 2nd James Rothenberger
SP2 3rd Robbie Wilson

SP3 1st Ed Dunne
SP3 2nd Karl Poeltl
SP3 3rd Jim Hamman

Congrats to all.

T

Oddjob 12-20-2018 06:52 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15505411)
BTW Walt is getting Facts and Figures to find out exactly what made came factory on the Rothmans Turbo cup Cars that allowed in "G" Stock. If they get that hashed out, That's what I am going to aim for. At least on paper there will be a really good chance of running well as opposed to being the one of the heaviest cars in F Stock, Plus boost goes to 1 Bar in G Stock. They are working this out to attract more 951's... Problem is there really isn't any "Spec" Sheet, There is plenty of knowledge ...Mag intakes , Mag wheels, ect ect but we are looking for documented proof... that is proving difficult.

I've got plenty of documentation on the specs of the Rothmans and the Playboy/Escort cars, and it was reviewed/approved by PCA CR about 12 years ago. What do you need?

I had some limited correspondence with Walt regarding the proposed rule changes with respect to 944Ts (allowing aftermarket boost control systems/components to replace old factory parts that are arguably becoming unreliable). I also spoke a little with Karl Poeltl at Road America about it. But I didn't pick up on anything related to the specs of Turbo Cup cars?

All 944 club racers are being pushed into SP3, they are all but unwelcome in the stock classes.

Otto Mechanic 12-20-2018 09:47 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15509689)
I believe what all the "Letter Classes" are exactly a "Street Car" with safety gear, hence why they are so heavy. I know people that Race with AC compressors on, Carpet in ECT.

Not exactly. Sure, I can race in the letter classes, I'd race in F normally. I do have some questions about "stock" suspensions I haven't answered. My understanding is the 944 S2 Club Sport was shipped with factory rear coil overs and so should still qualify for F "Stock".

But that's not really what I was talking about. The rules for Stock allow me to remove the A/C, Heater core, carpeting, rear seat (I think, not sure about that), radio (of course), electric seats, windows, not sure about central locking, definitely air bags, Lexan windows.

Some of the weight saving changes are pretty close to "Street", like containment seats. Removing the heater core? A/C? In a lot of places that would severely limit street use. Removing the airbags would be illegal in some states I think but I'm not certain. I've been told any factory installed safety equipment needs to be maintained in working order but I live in a state that doesn't do vehicle inspections. Lexan windows are right out for street.

So, what I'm getting at is that I could race in F Stock, but I'd be doomed by weight. I think it was you that made the observation earlier it's not all that fun to always be in the back of the pack. I guess that's really what an F "Street" (or more practically and "all letter Street") class would be good for; making racing suitably equipped street serviceable cars competitive enough to have fun with. I was thinking maybe it might bring more folks to racing.

For my part, I'll just race F Stock and resign myself to being one more nose-picker at the back of the pack.



Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15509689)
As far as the cage, Sure you can bolt and unbolt the front part. You cant see from the pictures but my car has a plate on it, Full Cage Full Race Suspension.. Drove it down the thruway this year to Cars and Coffee. (No Race Tires) My Cage is built so I cannot hit my head anywhere on it when I am seated, its tight and way out of the way... No matter what though unless you live in Canada where the Roads are smooth... Race suspension Sucks on the street..The Race Clutch is a whole other animal when pulling away from lights... and if you're going to run street suspension then you will be slow on track... its ok for cars and coffee or to take the car out for a rip on the street to test out new go fast goodies...but I Enjoy my factory seats in my street car and AC, and smooth ride and AMP and Stereo...

Well, that's really what the 928 is for in my book; it's the comfortable GT, but I live in an area where the roads are smooth and well engineered for driving. It's a little cheaper to use them than it is a track and I do pay for them anyway if you catch my meaning.

Regards,

Oddjob 12-20-2018 10:00 PM


Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic (Post 15511330)
... I guess that's really what an F "Street" (or more practically and "all letter Street") class would be good for; making racing suitably equipped street serviceable cars competitive enough to have fun with. I was thinking maybe it might bring more folks to racing.

You're getting started 25 years too late. When PCA started club racing in 1992, that's exactly what the stock classes were. Street/DE cars. I drove my car to and from the track on r-comps for my first couple races in the late 90's. Over the years, the stock classes have morphed dramatically from the original intent and rules (some for safety, much for pushing performance). To get started in the stock classes now requires a significant investment and the cars are not streetable with permanent alterations.

Otto Mechanic 12-20-2018 11:40 PM


Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 15511357)
You're getting started 25 years too late. When PCA started club racing in 1992, that's exactly what the stock classes were. Street/DE cars. I drove my car to and from the track on r-comps for my first couple races in the late 90's. Over the years, the stock classes have morphed dramatically from the original intent and rules (some for safety, much for pushing performance). To get started in the stock classes now requires a significant investment and the cars are not streetable with permanent alterations.

Well, not really too late, it's taken me some time to get back to it and I admit I'm more than a little disappointed in what's happened. I started racing 914s in 1980 and it's a lot different now. Still, it seems there might still be interest in a "street" class which is why I bring it up. I moved on from the 914 (which I regret but I was young then) but I've built a 931, done a few DEs in the 928 (mostly a way to get my son interested) and now I'm building an S2. I was sort of surprised.

A stock S2 weighs in at just shy of 3000lbs dry, the F Stock minimum (with driver) is 2900, SP3 is 2700. Not sure what a 6 point cage weighs, but let's say it's about 150lbs? So a stock S2 with driver (me at 170lbs + gear) and cage runs about 3300lbs and I'm looking at an F Stock minimum weight of 2900, so I can pull out 400lbs of hardware before I have to consider ballast. That's a whole lot of carpet, heater core, A/C & etc.

Somehow I doubt I can build a competitive car that has a street level interior under today's rules.

GPA951s 12-21-2018 10:00 AM

I think it would take a considerable amount of effort on the sanctioning bodies part to police a "Street stock" class. Spring rates, Struts ect. I volunteer for the club races as a Tech, and I was helping Walt last year check gears... Out of the handful of cars we had in tech we found two non-compliant. All this takes time.

I understand the appeal of having a stock class for a street car, the main thing that comes to mind would be affordability.... That's the Rub... Racing and affordability are like OIL and WATER... They just don't go together.. Just to Buy a Good high end suspension.. It costs as much as a used car... When I built my car all I wanted was "Good bones" Every system in the car needs to be gone through regardless. Engine, Trans , Suspension. This is not only for performance sake but for safety's sake. The cars we have are 30 years old and if anyone is out on the track with 30 year old hoses, factory rubber brake lines to the calipers ect they are asking for trouble... To give an example, I was in a DE and was having issues with the brakes not "Grabbing" properly.... I had neglected to rebuild the calipers and the pistons were getting hung up when heated. I was very meticulous and detailed when I re-built them and they worked flawlessly at the next event.
Anyhow, my point is that if you want to race, just buy another car, make it yours, the build is almost as enjoyable for me as the driving, and have fun. The price of a used car is peanuts compared the big picture of racing. Entry fee, Tires, Gas, Hotel, Food, Oil, I see SP2 cars around that are complete ready to race cars with logbook for 6k. That's the cost of 3 race weekends...

Otto Mechanic 12-21-2018 12:25 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15512127)
I think it would take a considerable amount of effort on the sanctioning bodies part to police a "Street stock" class. Spring rates, Struts etc. I volunteer for the club races as a Tech, and I was helping Walt last year check gears... Out of the handful of cars we had in tech we found two non-compliant. All this takes time.

Sure, but inspecting a "street stock" car isn't going to be any harder than inspecting an "F stock", it's just another car. I'm not suggesting anything other than the minimum weight change? Certainly, if the class attracts more entrants, the workload will go up because there'll be more cars to inspect, but that's the idea?


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15512127)
I understand the appeal of having a stock class for a street car, the main thing that comes to mind would be affordability.... That's the Rub... Racing and affordability are like OIL and WATER... They just don't go together.. Just to Buy a Good high end suspension.. It costs as much as a used car... When I built my car all I wanted was "Good bones" Every system in the car needs to be gone through regardless. Engine, Trans , Suspension. This is not only for performance sake but for safety's sake. The cars we have are 30 years old and if anyone is out on the track with 30 year old hoses, factory rubber brake lines to the calipers ect they are asking for trouble... To give an example, I was in a DE and was having issues with the brakes not "Grabbing" properly.... I had neglected to rebuild the calipers and the pistons were getting hung up when heated. I was very meticulous and detailed when I re-built them and they worked flawlessly at the next event.

Well, affordability comes in many forms, one is being able to test your car on a public road instead of blowing a day (or a whole weekend) to find out your water pump is no good.


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15512127)
Anyhow, my point is that if you want to race, just buy another car, make it yours, the build is almost as enjoyable for me as the driving, and have fun. The price of a used car is peanuts compared the big picture of racing. Entry fee, Tires, Gas, Hotel, Food, Oil, I see SP2 cars around that are complete ready to race cars with logbook for 6k. That's the cost of 3 race weekends...

I did exactly that; I bought another car, in my case it's an '89 S2. But I'd like to drive it on the road also. I have plenty of excellent public road to drive all around me and I'd like to use it to improve my skills with the car and for fun. And yes, it's cheaper to drive and test the car on public roads, but I also get to drive it more often. I think that's the real attraction for most folks.

chartersb 12-21-2018 02:54 PM

Turbo Cup specs
 

Originally Posted by Oddjob (Post 15510901)
I've got plenty of documentation on the specs of the Rothmans and the Playboy/Escort cars, and it was reviewed/approved by PCA CR about 12 years ago. What do you need?

I had some limited correspondence with Walt regarding the proposed rule changes with respect to 944Ts (allowing aftermarket boost control systems/components to replace old factory parts that are arguably becoming unreliable). I also spoke a little with Karl Poeltl at Road America about it. But I didn't pick up on anything related to the specs of Turbo Cup.

All 944 club racers are being pushed into SP3, they are all but unwelcome in the stock classes.

I sent you a pm re some specific component docs we are looking for.

Oddjob 12-21-2018 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by chartersb (Post 15512888)
I sent you a pm re some specific component docs we are looking for.

Replied to the follow-up.


951and944S 02-19-2019 01:20 PM

Bumping this thread, since....., well, Racing.

Several RL'ers will be racing at NOLA Motorsports Park this weekend,

I'll be there supporting my son in MojoGT3's 968, so attendants from here are,

ME. (duh...!)
MojoGt3 (car owner/PCA volunteer)
nine44S (my son Eon - SP3)
Max Energy (Gt 6)
gkovakas (SP3)
cajuncroc (SP3)
dizzyj (SP1)

Will update accordingly

T

GPA951s 02-19-2019 09:26 PM

Good Luck to you Guys, it was 4 degrees here this morning... all I can do is work on the race cars Jealous of your weather... LOL Have fun and Be Safe!

951and944S 02-19-2019 10:02 PM

Well, plan ahead next time....;)

There's sunny Florida Sebring and usually another southern race near the same time.

A few years ago, Sebring, NOLA and COTA were on nearly consecutive weekends.

Once you stay down south that long, you'll probably never go back though.....it's the food.

:cheers:

T

951and944S 02-21-2019 11:02 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/P58kxQb4/201902...16-resized.jpg

T

GPA951s 02-26-2019 01:39 PM

:corn: How did it go?

951and944S 02-26-2019 11:21 PM

Well, if results are all that matters, pretty good I guess,
Saturday enduro, 1st SP3 in class, 6th overall in field with Spec Caymans a 997 Cup, SP3 and GT cars.
Started 4th.

https://i.postimg.cc/jSv1PMkG/201902...59-resized.jpg


Got to grid late myself, that's 2nd place Cayman pulling away from grid.
Son, Eon is in the yellow 968 in 4th on grid.

The start and size of enduro field -


1 st heat on Saturday, 40 minutes, Eon was in P1 with an 8-10 second lead, 944T dropped a CV right past start tower.
First lap around after that, 2 Caymans in overall lead slammed the brakes at the yellow and didn't even go back to race speed until T1 which let P2 SP3 make up 5 seconds.
A lap after that, front splitter broke and was dragging the track, PCA guy tapped me on shoulder and told me they would black flag if I didn;t radio him in.
So, DNF for that one. Steve Gambla had a strong 968 engine car, he took 1st as he coasted across S/F at checkers with a broken clutch.

2nd 40 minute sprint on Saturday, 1st place with Rennlist George Kovakas .2-300 behind in second at checkers.

So, results wise, 2/3 1st place.
Was tough though,
We tried 275 Hankooks all around but car was loose with no real adj range to speak of left.
Mounted the 245 R7s which were faster by .600 believe it or not but at 2900 bs, the car just tore them up.

T

GPA951s 02-27-2019 10:48 AM

Sounds Like you guys had fun! Regarding the Tires, is the track surface pourus? At Watkins Glen I don't Tear up tires hardly at all (toyo 888Rs) But I took that same set to Nelson Ledges and Tore the crap out em but the track surface was like sandpaper...

Christopher Zach 03-01-2019 11:02 PM

Quick question: I'm going to be going down to Virginia Speedway on the 15th to do some track time, and my car needs to be tech checked beforehand. Anyone know what the checklist is and where it can be done?

Also where best place to buy a helmet? Cycle store? Is there a low profile helmet for tall people?

T&T Racing 03-02-2019 09:17 AM


Originally Posted by Christopher Zach (Post 15674532)
Quick question: I'm going to be going down to Virginia Speedway on the 15th to do some track time, and my car needs to be tech checked beforehand. Anyone know what the checklist is and where it can be done?

Also where best place to buy a helmet? Cycle store? Is there a low profile helmet for tall people?

On helmet, DOT helmet are not acceptable. Purchase a SA 2015 approved race car helmet

Christopher Zach 03-02-2019 09:20 AM

Where if I might ask? I'm 6 foot eight, so sizing and finding one that will fit in the car is critical. Ebay is not quite going to work here.

harveyf 03-02-2019 11:50 AM

The tech process should be explained on the website for the organization that you are signing up with for the event.

Call Linda at Apex Performance. She is quite knowledgable about safety gear. And yes, you will want to get a Snell rated helmet, as almost all track event organizations have set the Snell helmet as the only acceptable one to have. They update the ratings every 5 years so as said above, you will be getting a 2015 model.

I'm 13" shorter than you so not a problem for me but I suspect you will not find any substantial difference in helmet profiles but Linda would know for sure. Check the archives but most people do things like remove material from the seat bottom or mount the seat directly to the floor. Of course, you can lean the seat back and get some relief.

mj951 03-02-2019 12:27 PM

Agree with harveyf, it's less of a helmet solution and more of a seat solution.
At 6'-3"+ and in stock seats my helmet would occasionally touch something up top, I believe the sunroof frame molding. Once i installed sport seats (Recaro SRD's) it was a non issue.
If you have more plans for the track I would look into a different seat. As you shop seats consider a sub-belt hole for eventual 5 or 6 point harnesses and harness bar.

Edit: Oops, missed the topic of this thread...better seat selections and information in posts below.

T&T Racing 03-02-2019 01:41 PM

I am 6' 4" and my seat is a Kirkey 17 or 18 degree layback seat, full head containment, mounted on slider. The top of the helmet is below the top roll cage bar by using the broomstick measurement

GPA951s 03-03-2019 11:12 AM


Originally Posted by T&T Racing (Post 15675405)
I am 6' 4" and my seat is a Kirkey 17 or 18 degree layback seat, full head containment, mounted on slider. The top of the helmet is below the top roll cage bar by using the broomstick measurement


So I need to get a containment seat and I sat in the 71170 at the PRI show, Its a 20 degree layback. I have been thinking about how I was going to use sliders with it. As it is "Not Recommended" by Kirkey to mount with sliders I am debating in hooking a Cable to the seat back brace off the cage and design the whole deal so when the lever is pulled the tracks will slide along with releasing the back brace..

How did you mount yours? and what sliders did you use? Do you have a seat back brace? With 18 degree layback I assume you are using the 88 series seat..

951and944S 03-03-2019 11:22 AM

'Planted' is the best solution for a low slider.

I have a never been used one if anybody's interested.

Containment seats are the way to go, but yes, makes getting in without a slider more difficult.

I also have an OMP Pista seat, never been mounted, never been used. It's past it's legal date but can be used with a seat back brace per rules, or sent back for resert.

T

951and944S 03-03-2019 11:25 AM

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/im...OMP-HA684E.JPG

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4273/3...3a4e1214_c.jpg

T

T&T Racing 03-03-2019 02:20 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15677011)
So I need to get a containment seat and I sat in the 71170 at the PRI show, Its a 20 degree layback. I have been thinking about how I was going to use sliders with it. As it is "Not Recommended" by Kirkey to mount with sliders I am debating in hooking a Cable to the seat back brace off the cage and design the whole deal so when the lever is pulled the tracks will slide along with releasing the back brace..

How did you mount yours? and what sliders did you use? Do you have a seat back brace? With 18 degree layback I assume you are using the 88 series seat..

I mounted the sliders to the floor using the OEM inserts and grade 8.8 bolts One insert spun so I drilled it out and used a thick grade 8 fender washer and grade 8.8 bolt. I installed an adjustable back brace from I/O Port. The seat is the 88 series. My harness is 6 point.

T&T Racing 03-03-2019 02:26 PM

I mocked up the seat with a fabricated plywood built seat and found that for my height, an 18-20 degree layback was the only option. It did elevate my knees relative to the steering wheel. Corrected the interference by installing a steering hub extension, and my hand placement and elbow orientation also improved.

GPA951s 03-04-2019 09:10 PM

T, what is the seat size?

951and944S 03-04-2019 10:49 PM

I will check and let you know.

I'm 6'2" - 6'3" and 225-235lbs and I bought it for myself.

I have a seat back brace from one of the top manufacturers too, Brey Krause probably, goes with the seat.

Was gonna use it in the 968 my son races sometimes, but the car owner bought a full carbon $2500 OMP for it.... :roflmao:

T

Otto Mechanic 03-05-2019 07:16 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15677029)
'Planted' is the best solution for a low slider.

I have a never been used one if anybody's interested.

Containment seats are the way to go, but yes, makes getting in without a slider more difficult.

I also have an OMP Pista seat, never been mounted, never been used. It's past it's legal date but can be used with a seat back brace per rules, or sent back for resert.

T

Thanks for posting pictures. I know you said you've never used it, but are the HALO cutouts in that seat effective for giving you an "over the shoulder" view of what's behind you? If so they might be better than the seat I've been looking at, the Sparco Ergo with removable wings. I don't think I've ever really tried to look behind me on a track, but it might be a nice feature to have if it works.

951and944S 03-05-2019 09:56 PM


Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic (Post 15682856)
Thanks for posting pictures. I know you said you've never used it, but are the HALO cutouts in that seat effective for giving you an "over the shoulder" view of what's behind you? If so they might be better than the seat I've been looking at, the Sparco Ergo with removable wings. I don't think I've ever really tried to look behind me on a track, but it might be a nice feature to have if it works.

One of my friends has same seat (the Pista) in an S2.

We use Hans so head rotation pretty limited but you DO have a better peripheral when a car is next to you.

Will get pics tomorrow, Mardi Gras here today.


T

wildcat077 03-06-2019 02:04 PM

Some Halo racing seats have better vision clearance than others, i personally found the Cobra seat fit me like a glove.
I originally bought an OMP because it was a few hundred $$$ cheaper, sat it in a tire while watching tv at home and returned it the next day
and spent the extra money on the Cobra.
It was well worth the extra money ... take your time and find the one that fits YOU ...

Trying to look behind you on a race track is not a good idea ... lol
Just sayin ...

Otto Mechanic 03-06-2019 02:54 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15683231)
One of my friends has same seat (the Pista) in an S2.

We use Hans so head rotation pretty limited but you DO have a better peripheral when a car is next to you.

Will get pics tomorrow, Mardi Gras here today.


T

Understood about looking behind with a HANS, but I'm looking for a duel use seat. The removable wings on the Ergo are meant for that, but if this gives you over the shoulder vision on the way to the track (no HANS) that would be an improvement.

951and944S 03-06-2019 05:56 PM

Scott, if turning your head to the side without a helmet on way to track, then yes, you could get a view through the halo.

I bought this seat new @ $900+ years ago, I'm loading the serial and data tag, in the event you or Glen want to decipher the Italian.. ;)

I can take pics with a tape measure if anybody need me to.

https://i.postimg.cc/FH4m4zQN/20190306-151558.jpg

T

GPA951s 03-07-2019 08:58 AM

The chart that I found says that the pista seat has a hip width of 15.15 inches. I need at least 16. I sat in a 16 and it was snug. But then again its wintertime. I will be setting up the workout stuff in the shop once I finish building a roll cage I'm working on now. Maybe easier to just grab a tape measure and see what the actual hip width is. I can't imagine someone with your build would fit into a 15 inch seat?

951and944S 03-07-2019 09:04 AM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15686249)
The chart that I found says that the pista seat has a hip width of 15.15 inches. I need at least 16. I sat in a 16 and it was snug. But then again its wintertime. I will be setting up the workout stuff in the shop once I finish building a roll cage I'm working on now. Maybe easier to just grab a tape measure and see what the actual hip width is. I can't imagine someone with your build would fit into a 15 inch seat?

Yeah, I found that chart too and was gonna link but seat listed is ha/684 and this one is Xha/684sc.

I measured it once in a post at Pelican (my same user name) but I think the pics are gone.

I'll lay a tape and get some later.

T

Otto Mechanic 03-07-2019 09:35 PM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15686249)
I will be setting up the workout stuff in the shop once I finish building a roll cage I'm working on now.

If you're anything like me, that might work against a smaller seat.

When I was regularly training (Shotokan Karate 3 days a week, going to 4+ during the last 2 years before I challenged my black belt test) I weighed in at a hefty 235 lbs. 19 years later I've stopped training (back injury) and I'm 165. No fat to speak of, but not much muscle left either. Muscle weighs a lot more than fat... :)

951and944S 03-07-2019 09:58 PM

Fit is lighter weights and higher repetitions.

You build bulk with lower reps and higher weights.

Been there, done that in another life...:thumbup:

T

ELLSSUU 03-07-2019 10:50 PM

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...47a69ba89c.gif

Otto Mechanic 03-07-2019 11:33 PM


Originally Posted by 951and944S (Post 15688076)
Been there, done that in another life...:thumbup:
T

Yeah, something about you told me that might be the case :).

951and944S 03-08-2019 08:42 AM


Originally Posted by ELLSSUU (Post 15688201)

Your avatar..... :thumbup:

Guess what....?

Eon and his wife just had a baby boy 3 weeks ago.

I'm a [email protected] granpa already.....

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...jUcNSQY3CRStig

T

951and944S 03-08-2019 08:45 AM


Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic (Post 15688290)
Yeah, something about you told me that might be the case :).

LOL, the sports I played in high school, basketball, track, are about stamina more than bulk.

Carried on that type training for 5 years after.

I promise, no steroid rages...:roflmao:

T

GPA951s 03-08-2019 10:19 AM

Congrats Grandpa.... Now you need to get one of these!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4f91f14477.jpg

951and944S 03-08-2019 11:00 AM


Originally Posted by GPA951s (Post 15688869)
Congrats Grandpa.... Now you need to get one of these!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4f91f14477.jpg

YEah, I guess I do for when I have him for those early years track day.

Son already has it in his Cayanne but only because OMP doesn't make one...:roflmao:

curtisr 03-11-2019 01:06 PM


Originally Posted by Christopher Zach (Post 15674968)
Where if I might ask? I'm 6 foot eight, so sizing and finding one that will fit in the car is critical. Ebay is not quite going to work here.

Don't know what you're using for a seat but Kirkey aluminum racing seats (no affiliation) will sit right on the rails. Can't really get any lower than that.

T&T Racing 03-11-2019 06:12 PM


Originally Posted by curtisr (Post 15695674)
Don't know what you're using for a seat but Kirkey aluminum racing seats (no affiliation) will sit right on the rails. Can't really get any lower than that.

+1. That is how my Kirkey seat sets. Love my Kirkey

951and944S 03-12-2019 09:15 AM


Originally Posted by T&T Racing (Post 15696508)
+1. That is how my Kirkey seat sets. Love my Kirkey

I raced a car I still have for 1 season with a Kirkey seat.

Like sitting on a cinder block with a towel for padding....:roflmao:

I'm 230-240 lbs and it flexed way too much for my liking in hard turns.

Not a seat I would want to (and did even so) be in for longer than a 30 minute sprint.

T

GPA951s 03-12-2019 10:47 AM

For my purposes I like the Kirkey only because it allows the ability to modify it if I want, I can weld aluminum and if I need to make adjustments no issues. with the way I designed the seat back brace im going to "cradle" the upper portion of the seat. So that should eliminate flex. I understand about how it feels sitting on a brick because I had one in an oval track car, and especially the Top Right flexed where I would rest my helmet against it... So I had to make a "Stiffener rib" and weld it to the top.... Even 30 lap feature race constantly turning left was trying on the neck... I also see now that Kirkey has a "foam in place" kit for their seats... Im really liking that... so I will give it a shot..... If I don't like it... Theres always racingjunk.com :-)

951and944S 03-12-2019 01:11 PM

LOLZ....,

20K in race engine....check
$5-$6k, custom roll cage, fire system
Gotta get me them Motons, $5000
$3k, two sets of ties.
$1500 race suit
Need that carbon helmet, $750
$600 F/R brake pads
98 octane.....?, naaaah, give me the $8 per gallon stuff.

I'm ready to load up....!!!!!!!

Wait, almost forgot my $129 race seat....:roflmao:

T


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