ZCAT3

Just did my first DE - I got my assed kicked all over the track from BMW M3s and even a Mazda Miata. It was a very curvy track (Buttonwillow) and the 930 was a bear to handle (my wife Michele and I both spun out early on in the day). I expect with some practice it will get better. Michele (aka Mario) was running side by side with 996TTs in the straights, though, so the power is definitely there.

We had no problems with our car at the DE, but driving home a truck on I-5 kicked up a rock and took a big chunk out of our windshield.

We ran with the stock 16 inch Fuchs and fairly new Bridgestone RE730s. Getting the car through the turns was quite a challenge. We are considering gettings some 17 or 18 inch rims for DE use. Does anyone have any feedback on this? Should we stick with the stock rims until we get better?

Angelo

I have the same setup (RE730's) and while certainly not the best setup for the track, am quite competitive with the car at Sebring, Road Atlanta, Moroso, and Roebling Road. I can generally lap faster than 964/RSA and Boxster/Boxster S -- with only the 993/996 givng me a hard time, and only if driven really well (I have passed many, including 996TT). M3's and Miata's are certainly competent, but if unmodified and on street tires (assuming an equal driver) -- should realy prove no challenge.

In other words, the car is very fast on the track even totally stock -- mods will improve that, but not as much as driver experience and skill...so, keep going to DE's and get faster!


Cheers, Angelo

ZCAT3

Thanks Angelo - when the instructor drove the car it was quite clear the car was not the issue. The car is fairly modified and produces almost 440 HP (372 at the wheels) - it actually felt like we had too much power. We will keep working at it - I just though bigger or stickier tires might help compensate a bit for my lack of skill.

Bill Gregory

The primary benefit of having a second set of track wheels/tires is that you can use "r" compound tires (which are DOT approved and street legal), which are quite a bit stickier than street tires. They also wear quicker, so most don't use them as their daily driver tires, although you could if you wanted to.

ZCAT3

Bill - so tire size is not a big factor in stickiness? As you know, the 911 Turbo is a bear in the corners (particularly for beginners). I realize my own skills refinement will improve performance more than tires at this point, but track tires are definitely on my mind. If I do get track tires should I stay with the current size or more to a lerger diameter or wider footprint? As a complete novice, I appreciate any and all input.

JBH

I don't think I would desribe a 930 as a bear in the corners as it has a superior suspension setup compared to the 911. I would say it is a challenge to manage the additional power, especially if you have a 4 speed transmission.

Don't worry about spinning - that's how you learn not to lift/brake turning into or while tracking through a turn.

Bill's suggestion for stickier tires is a good option as it provides much better traction while saving your street tires (R compound tires are usually a bit cheaper too).

Rather than spend any more money on you car, this seems like an appropriate time to spend it on yourself - developing your driving skills? For the price of a new set of wheels and tires you can probably enroll in a quality driver school or attend a number more DE events. If you objective is to become and better/faster driver, it is the only way.

Good luck and have fun!

ZCAT3

Well, by "bear" I mean difficult to control. I had a lot of trouble keeping the back end in line, although that smoothed out over the day. I wish I was at the track again today as I think I could do much better!

pig4bill

"M3" and "unmodified" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

Zcat, you might consider a few autocrosses also. The lower speeds may let you push harder without as much concern for the consequences. The short, slow courses also tend to reward smoothness, which is a good trait to develop in rear-engine Porsches.

ZCAT3

Hey Pig - e-mail me at bill@roserix.com if you still want to see our 930. You have an M3 don't you?

Peter Carroll/Toronto

It's not the tires... It's you. You will get better. That's why you need to sign up for every DE day you can.

At a recent DE day, I had trouble with an air leak and had to go back to my stock Fuches and old 205/245 RE71s. To my surprise, they still work pretty damn well. I was a bit slower than my PZero-Cs, but still the only car to pass me was a race car.

It just shows what you can accomplish when you practice.

As for track tires, I went to BFG R1s after only 4 or 5 track days. I was amazed. It was like I could defy the laws of physics. They allowed me to go so much faster than my ability, that I spun the car, smacked a curb, destroyed a rim (hexagonal), ruined a set of tires, and came this close to rolling the car. Then of course they gave a stern lecture the rest of the students making full example of me...

I then went back to street tires for another year, though on wider rims. Now I use R compund tires and they help me go very very fast. But I had to learn a lot first. So much that I can now go very very fast on skinny street tires too.

M3??? Oh, is that what that was...

Mark W

I had the same feeling at my first DE at Roebling with the 930. I had some punk kid tailing me through the twisties in a VW Corrado that was on my ***, I couldn't shake him. Well not until we hit the turn 8-9 complex then it was Bye Bye........ Turns out the car was seriously modified running R compound tires, I was on a toasted set of 205/245 Comp TAs. It was like I was driving on ice after 3 laps.

Looking back that was the best thing for me to do, I needed to feel the car at it's limits in a controlled environment to learn it's dynamics. The toasted tires let me probe the car at the limit and learn to throttle steer and trail brake with 62% of the weight hanging off the rear tires. (it had been a long time since I drove a 911 at speed) Moving up to 17's with better rubber just raised the bar.

Learn the car's limits with the less sticky rubber. Practice being smooth, get your times down to the point where the limiting factor is the tires and not the loose nut behind the wheel Then it's time to upgrade but I'd take it in small steps. Go to 17's with better compound street tires, learn those limits. Then, and only then would I step up to R compounds.

BTW, Angelo is seriously fast in either his Boxster or 930. It doesn't suprise me that he's able to get all the performance available out of the RE730s. Believe him when he says there's a whole lot of performance available it your package.

Mark
'89 930

ZCAT3

I am now thinking about doing the Skip Barber 3 day school at Laguna Seca - if I can convince myself to spend the cash.

Bill Gregory

Skippy's schools are pretty good ableit pricey. I know several racers who like to attend every few years, just to feed the brain. I still think one of the best price performers is PCA drivers education. Roughly $100/day for 80 minutes of instructed, or not depending on your run group, time. (Format and cost varies by track around the country).

Peter Carroll/Toronto

For the price of the Skip Barber school, you could do an entire season of Porsche Club Driver Education. Don't under estimate the value of the Porsche Club DE days. I think you retain more by going regularly over a long period of time than by taking a 3 day crash course. For the money, you also get to the spread the joy out over the whole year. If you have money left over, there's always the BMW Club (in Canada you can drive a Porsche in the BMW Club). I do both. I actually do another club to. I got 27 track days in this year!

If you still have money left over, there's still Skip Barber...

I also don't get the Porsche Driving Experience. If you're going to learn to drive on the track, I think you should be driving a car you have a lot of seat time in - i.e. your own Porsche. And, if it's your first time out, what on earth is Hurley Haywood going to teach you that a PCA instructor can't? It must be very taxing for Hurley... Again, you can do a whole season of PCA DE for the price.

pig4bill

Don't they provide a 996 to drive? PCA track days are nice, but I haven't heard of any instructors giving up their 996 to drive.

It's probably as much a sales tool as anything else.