Another EFI conversion complete
11-29-2006, 10:57 AM
#16
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Maybe for people that don't know what they are doing! Let me paint this picture for you. I sit down, write the base program, load it into the ECU and hit the key. First time running on the EFI and it is holding steady, taking throttle and revving when cold. I am normally a little off on cold accel enrichment so it might stutter, but can be driven.
Second phase, I spend my first half of tuning AFRs. What does that mean? Well I am looking for targets on each KPA/RPM. I have a map that I lay out and hold each cell steady to achieve that AFR. This does two things. Makes the car safe to do the timing cell loads and sets best fuel economy. What is the by product of that? Drivability. If I can lean the car out during curse until I reach best AFR and no hiccups then the car is close. How close...Good question. When I come off the dyno I can throw it in 4th gear at 20MPH and lug the thing until it hits read line. Pulling smoothly across the band.
So, the point being. Yes, for me these two things are not a huge deal and since the post was up, cold start is done and decel drivability complete. Today it is 30 degrees and dropping. I will test that temp for start up in today and call it done.
For the question is this a do it your self type of gig. Nope, not ever. I simply couldn’t say it is unless you want to buy the tools to do it the right way. That includes a Scope, expensive crimpers (300.00) and a a slew of goofy pin tools, milspec connectors and so on. Without the proper testing equipment you could run into an issue and not even know you have one unless you could look at it with a scope (providing you know how to use it) I have run into issues even knowing how to use all of the proper tools still kicked me. There are tons of little nick knack things like the metric to AN fittings, wiring into the system, block offs for the intake, modifying the TB to accept (older than 86 cars) the TPS. The cam housing has to be welded either aluminum or cast and a sensor fitted, gap adjusted and still ensure the sump fits and works. This list goes on and on. Make one mistake, one loose wire, one wrong gap and your day is spent chasing issues.
In the end to do it right and once and never have to screw with it requires either A) Spend a hell of a lot of money/time/effort and jump on that learning curve B) send it to someone that really knows what they are doing and build street cars not just race cars. WOT and a street car are two totally different things
Second phase, I spend my first half of tuning AFRs. What does that mean? Well I am looking for targets on each KPA/RPM. I have a map that I lay out and hold each cell steady to achieve that AFR. This does two things. Makes the car safe to do the timing cell loads and sets best fuel economy. What is the by product of that? Drivability. If I can lean the car out during curse until I reach best AFR and no hiccups then the car is close. How close...Good question. When I come off the dyno I can throw it in 4th gear at 20MPH and lug the thing until it hits read line. Pulling smoothly across the band.
So, the point being. Yes, for me these two things are not a huge deal and since the post was up, cold start is done and decel drivability complete. Today it is 30 degrees and dropping. I will test that temp for start up in today and call it done.
For the question is this a do it your self type of gig. Nope, not ever. I simply couldn’t say it is unless you want to buy the tools to do it the right way. That includes a Scope, expensive crimpers (300.00) and a a slew of goofy pin tools, milspec connectors and so on. Without the proper testing equipment you could run into an issue and not even know you have one unless you could look at it with a scope (providing you know how to use it) I have run into issues even knowing how to use all of the proper tools still kicked me. There are tons of little nick knack things like the metric to AN fittings, wiring into the system, block offs for the intake, modifying the TB to accept (older than 86 cars) the TPS. The cam housing has to be welded either aluminum or cast and a sensor fitted, gap adjusted and still ensure the sump fits and works. This list goes on and on. Make one mistake, one loose wire, one wrong gap and your day is spent chasing issues.
In the end to do it right and once and never have to screw with it requires either A) Spend a hell of a lot of money/time/effort and jump on that learning curve B) send it to someone that really knows what they are doing and build street cars not just race cars. WOT and a street car are two totally different things
11-29-2006, 02:05 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by Bruce M.
Cold start and driveability are the two hardest things to get right in an EFI install. They sure were in mine.
11-29-2006, 02:37 PM
#19
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You say that the car in question does not have headers. Is it using a Euro exhaust?
What would be the advantages of spending another $1500+ on headers if he is getting 400HP on the current heat exchangers? A little less lag and a little more power?
What would be the advantages of spending another $1500+ on headers if he is getting 400HP on the current heat exchangers? A little less lag and a little more power?
11-29-2006, 03:16 PM
#20
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"A little less lag, a little more power?" Well actually as proven many many times on the dyno a lot less lag and more TQ. Not everything is measured in HP Brian. It is about drivability, throttle response and power under the curve. All of these are enhance with headers..
12-02-2006, 12:17 PM
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Chet930: nice to see its finally done! Now I can look forward to getting my 3.6 back from IA! Nice numbers as well. should be a bumch of fun. Great looking work as usual Mr. Kaspar.
12-03-2006, 02:12 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by PorschePhD
"A little less lag, a little more power?" Well actually as proven many many times on the dyno a lot less lag and more TQ. Not everything is measured in HP Brian. It is about drivability, throttle response and power under the curve. All of these are enhance with headers..
Actually if I was on limited budget, I would rather get headers and straight thru cat back than a new turbo even if it was a hiflow (no offense Stephen).WIth headers the car feels "lightened", perkier even in low revs - driveability definitely goes right up
12-03-2006, 11:48 PM
#25
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A little less lag and a little more power IS drivability.
By power I mean torque.
The question was asked to find out to what degree EFI is improved by using headers vs the 930 Euro configuration. Everyone talks about EFI and improved drivability over CIS but rarely includes headers, which also improve drivability, into the equasion. With the drivability advantages of EFI (vs CIS) it could be assumed that headers might have less of an impact on drivability and more of an impact on performance.
By power I mean torque.
The question was asked to find out to what degree EFI is improved by using headers vs the 930 Euro configuration. Everyone talks about EFI and improved drivability over CIS but rarely includes headers, which also improve drivability, into the equasion. With the drivability advantages of EFI (vs CIS) it could be assumed that headers might have less of an impact on drivability and more of an impact on performance.
12-03-2006, 11:55 PM
#26
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Bottom line is yes, I can add timing and clean the curves up, however velocity is velocity and you can not make that up. The removal of 4 ft of pipe still does not evade the physics of the turbo and how it operates. So in the end, heads will male more TQ, a broader power band and more drivability.
I have done too much testing and have data on TTs alone to know that this statement holds very true.
Chets car is still a on/off switch.
I have done too much testing and have data on TTs alone to know that this statement holds very true.
Chets car is still a on/off switch.
12-04-2006, 02:11 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by RarlyL8
A little less lag and a little more power IS drivability.
By power I mean torque.
The question was asked to find out to what degree EFI is improved by using headers vs the 930 Euro configuration. Everyone talks about EFI and improved drivability over CIS but rarely includes headers, which also improve drivability, into the equasion. With the drivability advantages of EFI (vs CIS) it could be assumed that headers might have less of an impact on drivability and more of an impact on performance.
By power I mean torque.
The question was asked to find out to what degree EFI is improved by using headers vs the 930 Euro configuration. Everyone talks about EFI and improved drivability over CIS but rarely includes headers, which also improve drivability, into the equasion. With the drivability advantages of EFI (vs CIS) it could be assumed that headers might have less of an impact on drivability and more of an impact on performance.
12-04-2006, 02:41 PM
#28
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So Chet's car is now a smooth running on/off switch. Ha!
I get what you are saying. Headers will help with lag and torque independent of the fuel injection system. They enhance the experience in their own way and are a worthy upgrade for that fact alone.
I get what you are saying. Headers will help with lag and torque independent of the fuel injection system. They enhance the experience in their own way and are a worthy upgrade for that fact alone.
12-04-2006, 04:21 PM
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I doubt the on/off character will be dramitically reduced from headers alone. The compression ratio versus the intake port size is where the problem is at (port velocity). I dig the off/on character anyhow. True 930 heritage.....
12-04-2006, 05:27 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by Chet 930
I doubt the on/off character will be dramitically reduced from headers alone. The compression ratio versus the intake port size is where the problem is at (port velocity). I dig the off/on character anyhow. True 930 heritage.....