jhunt@huntinter

Like a GT2 :-)

SoFast

In my opinion, a chassis can always be modified dependent on the application..I.E- hp....

Saying that, you could build a much better car than that of the Gt2. You could build a car that would kick the Gt2's ***. But, it is the person's prefernce in what they desire.

The main reason people do not do it, is becaue they will not be able to resell their vehicle for the money invested. Not because of chassis set up.

Geoffrey

I don't believe that you can build a 930 or 964 chassis combination that is better than say a 996 Cup car is in stock form. It might be faster, but the level of effort required to drive the car is much more than to drive a 996 platform car.

SoFast

True, the level of effort to drive the car would be much greater. More driver skill required...But if done correctly, any chassis can be modified to adapt to perfromance changes. It would just take some analysis on where the weak points are on the vehicle...Then, what would be requird to adjust for those weaknesses....Reason the Cup car is so well adapted..Porsche has taken the weaknesses of past vehicles and capitalized on them.

Jean

Simon,

I support what you are saying and don't think that RUF is THE one, they are definitely very very good and produce balanced packages but there are a few others out there who do not have the same marketing funds to draw media attention or ship their cars to the Nurburgring or Nardo, or who simply are not commercially oriented, albeit having excellent products. I have discussed with a couple of tuners who refused to modify my engine to a 600+ hp level unless I shipped my car to them, regardless of money, they would not listen. This undoubtedly talks about their standards.

Neil and Performance Developments who I guess you are referring to, is one of the builders who are up there. (Would you have a copy of that article or video if any, I have been trying to get my hands on it.)

IMHO, and as has been said before, A 930 or 965 chassis is not at par with these hp levels under track conditions, the handling difference with a 993 is big, let alone a 996 and more so the unbelievable stability of a 997 (I have tested one at the track this past week end). Motec and others have great products to partially offset the power delivery and traction weaknesses but they come at a very hefty price and are not for the average/good amateur driver.

So Fast, Building a car better than the GT2 is not possible for any other than a very few top notch engineers , faster maybe. 993 and older Cup cars still cannot compete with a more modern and lightweight 996. 996 GT3 RSRs eclipse any 993GT2 with more than 150hp of difference, the 2003 Le Mans Series winner and 2004 GT (Porsche) European champion so far this year said it to me 3 days ago, "they are no match".

Jean

Geoffrey

I kind of smiled when the GT2 first came out and people started saying how hard the car was to drive, how unpredictable it can be, how it wasn't a good platform for over 600hp because it lacked AWD and PSM. It shows how much the perception and expectation of consumers has changed. No wonder we have cup holders, 12 air bags, clutchless transmissions, backup sensors or cameras, intelligent cruise control, need I go on.

I'd like to get back to the basics. For instance, I'd love an Audi S8 short wheelbase with a 6 spd, nice interior, standard shocks, minus adaptave everything, taking off 1000lbs. That would be my daily driver. Now I'm afraid to own a new car after the warranty period has ended. I probably can't fix most things myself and repair costs and parts are expensive.

PorschePhD

In the day RUF was the one. They difference was not only were they engineers, but they were car guys that could build anything. Look at the kits from years past. Most of them used some form of Porsche part that was modified to work to their needs. Not so different then what a lot of us do today. As time has moved on they seem to be a little less car guy and more engineer. That is my perception. That may also be a problem with the dealers for Ruf. Most carry the dealer mentality. If it isn't new they don't care, if it is a pre 993 they don't know it. If they do know it not enough to do something simply like trouble shoot the CIS. Granted the system is out of date, but there are still people that fall in that group. Different time, different outlook.

The biggest difference is RUF set a standard. Unlike so many, he support and underrated his cars, Not just HP, but Chassis, brakes and so on. You got what you paid for then some. Price was not a concern. He set that up from the beginning. If he said it was this much it was that. No questions about it. Simon hit it on the head with the level of cost verses what you get. It is a fine line to doing everything you feel as an tuner should be done and getting the customer to understand that. Price was no object then anything could be done. Then reality sets in.

The 996 cup car is probably as fine as a car as anyone can buy from a manufacture.

jhunt@huntinter

RUF had one trick roll bar. Very nicely done. I agree... they were the one.

Don't misunderstand my comments. I like the 930, it is a visceral and tough car. It isn't a go cart and takes real skill to get around a track quickly (sure you can always blow down the straight... the skill comes in the corners). I was just suggesting that, with a reasonable budget, you can easily build a ton of hp and not have a chassis that makes it particularily usable.. or rather faster around the track. Not to mention you end up with a street car that is faster than snot... but not the chassis to handle it or the consequences.

SoFast

All I am saying is that if price was no object, a chassis could be adapted to perform. Most modern day cars are made to certain specs. Most aftermarket engineers work with those specs and push the car beyond. Example, look at Steve's cars. Do they make sense? What about his yellow beast? Was it worth it to build such a monster? As well, what about his new car? Was it engineered for what he developed. No! But he goes beyond what Porsche has structured the car for. In doing so, he has to adapt the car for his modifications. Hence, what does one want to pay? Will they get their money's worth? Did Steve?
Which is most important to most people driving their cars? HP or handling? You see, if someone took the time and effort to do such, they could develop a chassis to do what was asked. If you threw enough money at it, it could be done. Question...Is it worth it? Depends on the person driving the car and their abilities to learn or do such. Most dont!
So, knowing that, a 930 is a real visceral car. You have to be well aware of what you are doing. On the other hand, the newer models can be driven at 150 mph with no effort. Which do you prefer? Some enjoy the visceral feeling of a car that demands respect, while others prefer something of a different trait. Why not both? Decisions, decisions....LOL

Geoffrey

Not to take away from his acomplishment, but since you referenced it, Stephen's Monster was cutting edge technology at the time it was built. Today, you can acheive far superior performance with improved design techniques, leveraging better components. The same can be said about RUF. Stephen as moved on to newer technology and continued to evolve and develop the package. His new car will far outperform his old car in every way. Hey, it even has mufflers and DVD navigation. He can take it on trips, something that he probably wouldn't do with his old Monster.

Money no object the new 996 platform will outperform all previous platforms. As you mention, the pre 1990 chassis can be made to perform and there are many performance parts available. However, drive them back-to-back and even the 964 platform is noticably better.

SoFast

I am not comparing it to the technology of todays car....But as it was being stated, the 930 could not handle horsepower above 550hp? As well, I was pointing out that he alos pushes the envelope with every car he owns in a manner for which it was not meant. Sure, the 930 has limitations..But the mighty dollar is the limiting factor. That is what is truly comes down to. If you want the refinements of DVD, then you go with the 996. If you like the classic lines of the 930 and you want to develope that car into your dream car, why shouldnt they be allowed to pursue that vision? I never said it could out handle the newer cars of today. but you could make a good run at it.

SoFast

Here is an analogy. Formula one race cars of today were derived from that of formula one race cars of the past. Each year, the technology is developed to a new standard. Sure, the cars of just 10 years ago could easily handle the power and propel the cars over 200mph. But the cars of today do the same. What is the difference? The cars of today surpass that of the cars of old in how they handle, how safe they are, efficiency; just to name a few. The same goes for that of Porsche. Each year, a new development is derived, based from lessons learned from previos models. From that, the old cars can get some modest updates that will bring the car closer to new technology and handling charateristics of todays Porsches. In doing so, you are not arriving at the same handling and power characteristics of today, but you can develop car that is close dependent on the technology developed specifically for that car. And to finally answer the question, if you had unlimited money, you could develop a car to handle better than the new cars? Yes! But that would be insane and unworthy and a total waste of money. So, use what you learn from todays models to make the car as solid and user friendly as possible. I.E-Capable of handling 550 hp. I do not think that is out of the realm here, do you?

jhunt@huntinter

What about the drivetrain. Porsche has a history of building everything 100% stronger then the expected duty requirements (at least they used to, not sure if this applies to the water pumpers of today). So, for example, the drivetrain of the 930 was built to handle 500 to 600hp max since the cars shipped with 270hp to 300hp. This tells me the axles, the transaxle, bearings, etc... are all at above limits if you exceed 600hp. At the limit at 600hp range... you leave no margin and no margin for manufactering tolerences.

The factory took this very seriously themselves in the race cars they built at the time. The 935 had some pretty serious amounts of Titanium in it at critical areas just for this reason. These parts are not available today and even if they were... would be unwise for streat use.

I think any hp increase on the 930 over 400 or 450 is realatively unusable. Might be good for bench racing, but wouldn't make much difference otherwise.

SoFast

Change the drivetrain. Use a G50 tranny and update the car. I was not saying that I wanted to keep the car stock and just pump up the HP? Modifications all the way. Engine, transmission, chassis...You name it. This way, you are protecting yourself from that kind of issue to an extent. I spoke with a tuner this past week that put a G50 six speed in a clients 930. Was incredible to hear about and see pics of. Not that is what I want to particularly do, but in essence, the same principle.

Geoffrey

SoFast, I think we are saying essentially the same thing. With today's technology applied to the 930, you can make a very potent package. It does not take much to develop the car into a very fast, well handling street or DE car in stock body form. As you mentioned, you can further lighten, stiffen, and replace components with newer technology and make a great race car. It does however have its limitations and each iteration of Porsche chassis development (964, 993, 996) provides a better starting point.

What I said was that I thought 550hp was about the limit for an unmodified chassis with stock style suspension (torsion bars). Don't get me wrong, I love modified 930s in all forms. They are fast and capable cars when a well rounded package is developed for them.

My car has been run for 8 years in two engine iterations at over 520hp with heavy track usage. In that time, I have only had 1 major failure and that occured this year when 3rd gear stripped all of its teeth off at Mosport Canada. This on the stronger G50/50 gearbox which really isn't surprising given the fact that it is the most used gear in my car on the track. The only other failure has been turbochargers as we were developing one that would last in this particular package. I'm on my 3rd year on the current turbo. That's it! I have not experienced driveaxle failure, but I do routine maintenance on them.

There is a big difference between a 450hp 930 and a 550hp 930 in terms of power delivery, drivability and overall performance. 550hp is very usable, even on a daily driver, however, it is not good for your license, so in a sense, not realitevly usable on the street.