Need advice on 911sc I just test drove
09-11-2003, 03:04 PM
#31
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96: Yeah, I hear you. If nothing else, this 993 is a good example what has happened to pricing recently. With a 993 available for that money, a C4/2 is down int the 20s, draging everything else with it. The carrera definitely is under 20k now.
What could happen of course on the SC/carrera is that the value will increase again, once these cars are considered true classics. While there were gobs made, there is no reason for them not to go up in value again. A first gen. Camaro comes to mind. Many made, cheap cars to begin with but a wide base of followers has made them very expensive items in presentable shape!
Cheers, George
What could happen of course on the SC/carrera is that the value will increase again, once these cars are considered true classics. While there were gobs made, there is no reason for them not to go up in value again. A first gen. Camaro comes to mind. Many made, cheap cars to begin with but a wide base of followers has made them very expensive items in presentable shape!
Cheers, George
09-11-2003, 03:40 PM
#32
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I think the confusion about pricing here stems from the subjectivity of the term "clean". 
If you're talking about a G50 car with 20k miles, all original paint, all records since new, perfect mechanical condition, "as-new", etc, you ain't gonna find one for under $20k...or under $25k for that matter.
If you don't mind 100k-plus miles, are not concerned with original paint, all records, whether the A/C works, etc., but a car that just looks good and runs well, sure, there are plenty of G50 cars for under $20k.
The fact is that the low-mile (under 50k), extra clean 80s cars are getting more scarce, and those that have them will probably not be selling for a bargain price, even though it's a "buyer's market." They just won't sell them in this market at all. So while it's true that there are plenty of bargains out there, it probably won't be on one you can bring to your local PCA concours.
And please, no comments about low mileage cars, I was just trying to use an extreme example.
Incidentally, and contrary to popular belief, it is possible to keep a 911 running well only driving it 1,500-2,000 miles/year.
-Sean
If you're talking about a G50 car with 20k miles, all original paint, all records since new, perfect mechanical condition, "as-new", etc, you ain't gonna find one for under $20k...or under $25k for that matter.If you don't mind 100k-plus miles, are not concerned with original paint, all records, whether the A/C works, etc., but a car that just looks good and runs well, sure, there are plenty of G50 cars for under $20k.
The fact is that the low-mile (under 50k), extra clean 80s cars are getting more scarce, and those that have them will probably not be selling for a bargain price, even though it's a "buyer's market." They just won't sell them in this market at all. So while it's true that there are plenty of bargains out there, it probably won't be on one you can bring to your local PCA concours.
And please, no comments about low mileage cars, I was just trying to use an extreme example.
Incidentally, and contrary to popular belief, it is possible to keep a 911 running well only driving it 1,500-2,000 miles/year. -Sean
09-11-2003, 04:01 PM
#33
Hi Sean,
The car I'm looking for will probably have less than 125K miles, original but good to great condition paint and upholstery. No dents and VERY few dings, if any. Solid PPI, G50 or Tiptronic (this is for my wife, not me so no flaming please) and no bling. Those links George attached are a great start. I'll call those sellers, arrange to see the car and gauge their willingness to negotiate on price based on my visual and PPI. My wife is a little particular on the color (no red because of neg attention, no brown because my targa is copper brown metallic and no signal orange or lime green/yellow). I should be able to find something like that in my price range, I hope anyway.
The car I'm looking for will probably have less than 125K miles, original but good to great condition paint and upholstery. No dents and VERY few dings, if any. Solid PPI, G50 or Tiptronic (this is for my wife, not me so no flaming please) and no bling. Those links George attached are a great start. I'll call those sellers, arrange to see the car and gauge their willingness to negotiate on price based on my visual and PPI. My wife is a little particular on the color (no red because of neg attention, no brown because my targa is copper brown metallic and no signal orange or lime green/yellow). I should be able to find something like that in my price range, I hope anyway.
09-12-2003, 11:21 PM
#35
I second that. Just recently at an auction, a 356 Carrera Speedster sold for over $100. Around $120 or $130, I believe. That is probably a record, even though it not only is a Speedster, but a Carrera four cam. But then again, it is a rare car and in the long term, it will be a good deal. Or maybe even a great deal for the right buyer with his or her special circumstances. Here is why.
Prices are very subjective, especially on rare cars. Here is a scenario. Lets say someone is in the market for a 1967 Ferrari 312 Formula 1 car. Well, first they have to consider how many were made. Probably a few due to crashes or whatever, but at the end of any F1 season, there should not be more than 3 or maybe 4 maximum since they are built on a per need basis throughout the season. Maybe in this case 5 since there was Mike Parkes, Chris Amon and Lorenzo Bandini's. Though the real number is probably 4. Or figure only 2 spares at the most apart from the 3 needed.
So if someone wants that particular model, he or she has to wait for one to show up for sale or at auction. If that person sees one today for sale, it might well be another decade before another shows up. Could be less, could be more. After all, I have never seen more than 2 Ferrari F1s for sale in any given year. Now, considering the value of the car, which in the 312's case should be just under 1 million US, chances are whoever is purchasing it isn't young. All our days are numbered, especially as we get older. So that buyer isn't just considering his available time to enjoy it, but his or her state of well being as it applies to future enjoyment of that wonderful red toy. So mr or mrs 312 buyer has to weigh that in as a serious consideration as to how long to wait for that perfect deal. Not to mention the other unknown as far as having the available funds at a future time. Or maybe a price appreciation which could make the car even harder to purchase later on. In that car's case, increase in value is a known. The unknown is how long and how much.
Another factor, which can really affect the decision precess, is emotion. Especially with a Ferrari 312. With this particular car, when you first hear it cranked up, the first feelings are which bank will I rob and how, for you must get it. It's that good. The sound of a Ferrari F1 V12, especially of this vintage, should be used as therapy. Arguably the best engine sound known to man. Only a BRM and a Matra come close. When heard at full song, it will create emotions in the most unemotional of people.
So here is the buyer, at an auction, with one available for the taking. Do I take it, do I wait? That is the market. Sure values are values, but they are based on recent sales. And sales have so much more unknowns than just a someone paying for a car. The only information an outsider has is the sale itself. No the factors in the decision making. A particular value should always be used as a gage, but that is only the beginning. So yes, what someone is willing to pay for that car, that day is the value. Nothing more, nothing less.
Prices are very subjective, especially on rare cars. Here is a scenario. Lets say someone is in the market for a 1967 Ferrari 312 Formula 1 car. Well, first they have to consider how many were made. Probably a few due to crashes or whatever, but at the end of any F1 season, there should not be more than 3 or maybe 4 maximum since they are built on a per need basis throughout the season. Maybe in this case 5 since there was Mike Parkes, Chris Amon and Lorenzo Bandini's. Though the real number is probably 4. Or figure only 2 spares at the most apart from the 3 needed.
So if someone wants that particular model, he or she has to wait for one to show up for sale or at auction. If that person sees one today for sale, it might well be another decade before another shows up. Could be less, could be more. After all, I have never seen more than 2 Ferrari F1s for sale in any given year. Now, considering the value of the car, which in the 312's case should be just under 1 million US, chances are whoever is purchasing it isn't young. All our days are numbered, especially as we get older. So that buyer isn't just considering his available time to enjoy it, but his or her state of well being as it applies to future enjoyment of that wonderful red toy. So mr or mrs 312 buyer has to weigh that in as a serious consideration as to how long to wait for that perfect deal. Not to mention the other unknown as far as having the available funds at a future time. Or maybe a price appreciation which could make the car even harder to purchase later on. In that car's case, increase in value is a known. The unknown is how long and how much.
Another factor, which can really affect the decision precess, is emotion. Especially with a Ferrari 312. With this particular car, when you first hear it cranked up, the first feelings are which bank will I rob and how, for you must get it. It's that good. The sound of a Ferrari F1 V12, especially of this vintage, should be used as therapy. Arguably the best engine sound known to man. Only a BRM and a Matra come close. When heard at full song, it will create emotions in the most unemotional of people.
So here is the buyer, at an auction, with one available for the taking. Do I take it, do I wait? That is the market. Sure values are values, but they are based on recent sales. And sales have so much more unknowns than just a someone paying for a car. The only information an outsider has is the sale itself. No the factors in the decision making. A particular value should always be used as a gage, but that is only the beginning. So yes, what someone is willing to pay for that car, that day is the value. Nothing more, nothing less.
Last edited by Ed Bighi; 09-13-2003 at 12:08 AM.
09-13-2003, 06:03 PM
#36
Hello,
i just bought a clean (8.5 out of 10) 86 carrera for 16,900. Car was a 1 owner, very well maintained car with 101k on it. I have a stack or reciepts and in the last 3 yrs they total over 17k. No issuse with the paint gearbox or interior. So keep looking, 14 is way too high to pay for a car that will need that much work.
As far as feeling slow, i have to say my carrera feels slow. I test drove a 1990 C2 before i bought the 86 and the C2 felt fast, so i was disapointed when i drove it, but it was a better car so i bought it over the 90. I track a 1988 BMW M3 and although it has no torque the M3 pulls harder then the 911 does. Dont get me wrong i love the 911 with a passion, but older 911s are not rockets. They are a thing of beauty when driven fast, they just arent drag cars.
Brandon
i just bought a clean (8.5 out of 10) 86 carrera for 16,900. Car was a 1 owner, very well maintained car with 101k on it. I have a stack or reciepts and in the last 3 yrs they total over 17k. No issuse with the paint gearbox or interior. So keep looking, 14 is way too high to pay for a car that will need that much work.
As far as feeling slow, i have to say my carrera feels slow. I test drove a 1990 C2 before i bought the 86 and the C2 felt fast, so i was disapointed when i drove it, but it was a better car so i bought it over the 90. I track a 1988 BMW M3 and although it has no torque the M3 pulls harder then the 911 does. Dont get me wrong i love the 911 with a passion, but older 911s are not rockets. They are a thing of beauty when driven fast, they just arent drag cars.
Brandon
09-13-2003, 10:15 PM
#37
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Originally posted by Ed Bighi
So yes, what someone is willing to pay for that car, that day is the value. Nothing more, nothing less.
So yes, what someone is willing to pay for that car, that day is the value. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ed has summed up this whole thread rather precisely.
09-16-2003, 12:06 AM
#38
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Owner was willing to sell me an '86 Carrera with 90K miles on it in near mint condition five months ago. Price...$14,500.00. PPI done, perfect. Black on black coupe. One owner. Beauty. Patience and persistence are the key to finding these deals. This fellow just didn't want to fool with the selling of it. A real nice older gentleman. Never belonged to any of the Porsche clubs or online sites, nut hadd all the maintenance from a local shop.
Also found a similar deal on a silver '84, better price, but only 25,000 miles on that one. He would have it stored every winter, and towed to the dealership every spring to prep it for the summer. Not a scratch on that one. Concourse quality. Once again, this fellow didn't belong to anything, PCA, Rennlist or otherwise, but loved his Porsche, and serviced it religiously.
They're out there. Just takes work and patience.
Also found a similar deal on a silver '84, better price, but only 25,000 miles on that one. He would have it stored every winter, and towed to the dealership every spring to prep it for the summer. Not a scratch on that one. Concourse quality. Once again, this fellow didn't belong to anything, PCA, Rennlist or otherwise, but loved his Porsche, and serviced it religiously.
They're out there. Just takes work and patience.
09-17-2003, 10:43 PM
#39
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Check this one out. Looks like a very clean example for under 10k!
http://www.craigslist.org/sby/car/16411965.html
George
http://www.craigslist.org/sby/car/16411965.html
George