What motor would you recommend for a long nose?
03-03-2011, 12:43 AM
#31
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I really liked my 78 SC 3.0 motor with 915 trans that I had in my 69T. It had 46mm PMO carbs, reground web cams, euro carrera distributor, SSI/sport muffler exhaust. It had instant throttle response and plenty of power. Bottom end all stock. Simple and not super $$$.
I now have a 3.2 in a 77S. It has a Steve Wong chip, cat bypass and M&K muffler. Very reliable, good starting, idling, economy and low emissions. Just isn't quite as exciting as the 3.0 was. Torquey but relatively lazy throttle response.
In a smog exempt lightweight early car I would go with the carbureted 3.0! I would redline it daily just for the sheer pleasure of the intake noise!
Great project...........enjoy!
I now have a 3.2 in a 77S. It has a Steve Wong chip, cat bypass and M&K muffler. Very reliable, good starting, idling, economy and low emissions. Just isn't quite as exciting as the 3.0 was. Torquey but relatively lazy throttle response.
In a smog exempt lightweight early car I would go with the carbureted 3.0! I would redline it daily just for the sheer pleasure of the intake noise!
Great project...........enjoy!
If you have a good early chassis, the 3.2/915 is an outstanding combo. Like Pete Z says, a good oil cooler is needed. A 3.6 in an early chassis is a big job. That much torque needs to be managed. Backdating a later car can also be a big job if all the details are looked after, but a very sensible exercise indeed.
There are lots of 3.0 SC motors available and make a very nice combo as well.
There are lots of 3.0 SC motors available and make a very nice combo as well.
'75 or earlier car in CA = no smog tests.
Ed, I built my 2.6 when Mahles were $2K, and Solex "4.2" camshafts and 2.2 liter cylinder heads were available. Today it would be an expensive engine to build, but with the right machine shop taking care of things like case savers and cylinder heads...
Your questions really depend on you, and what you expect the car to be. For me, a slightly peaky, smaller displacement engine with carbs brings a lot of early car magic to the party. When you plug in an SC or 3.2 motor a lot of that magic goes away, unless you do cams and carbs on the SC. But it still isn't the same, the visceral component kinda goes away.
I guess that maybe I'm in the minority on this one regarding engine choice, but that said I also wouldn't do a Targa as an early car project. Sheer cornering speed with minimal chassis flex is my primary goal with an early car, combined with acceptable lower rev engine performance combined with that wonderful push in the back at 4,000 revs.
In 2000/'01 I built a 2.2 911E, using a '69 912 as the basic tub, for PCA Club Racing. The car was silly quick during testing at Streets of Willow, but the whole project went off the tracks when I had my shoulder surgery. I sold the car to a close friend, in hindsight that was a huge mistake. Even with all of the changes I was able to capture the magic of a good long nose car.
My $0.02...and "my" 2.2 E.
Ed, I built my 2.6 when Mahles were $2K, and Solex "4.2" camshafts and 2.2 liter cylinder heads were available. Today it would be an expensive engine to build, but with the right machine shop taking care of things like case savers and cylinder heads...
Your questions really depend on you, and what you expect the car to be. For me, a slightly peaky, smaller displacement engine with carbs brings a lot of early car magic to the party. When you plug in an SC or 3.2 motor a lot of that magic goes away, unless you do cams and carbs on the SC. But it still isn't the same, the visceral component kinda goes away.
I guess that maybe I'm in the minority on this one regarding engine choice, but that said I also wouldn't do a Targa as an early car project. Sheer cornering speed with minimal chassis flex is my primary goal with an early car, combined with acceptable lower rev engine performance combined with that wonderful push in the back at 4,000 revs.
In 2000/'01 I built a 2.2 911E, using a '69 912 as the basic tub, for PCA Club Racing. The car was silly quick during testing at Streets of Willow, but the whole project went off the tracks when I had my shoulder surgery. I sold the car to a close friend, in hindsight that was a huge mistake. Even with all of the changes I was able to capture the magic of a good long nose car.
My $0.02...and "my" 2.2 E.
I've heard the early model engines, but I'm also tainted by Ed's 3.4.
A 3.2 sounding like a lawnmower? Huh? Maybe the Banshee Corporation's model #666.
Go to about 1 minute in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtZ2A...e_gdata_player
Go to about 1 minute in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtZ2A...e_gdata_player
A short stroke early engine would be a fun build and a fun drive, but I don't think that best meets your goal of a 300 mile road tripper. My personal choice would be a stock 3.2.
Fun project. Definitely looking forward to hearing more.
I started welding last year. Like you, I got the welder for car projects. It hasn't seen a car part, yet, but I now have a new all-steel workbench/welding table and nice set of custom fitted metal shelves in my garage from my welding exploits. And, I was able to help out my in-laws by welding an ear back on an outdoor metal cat sculpture that they have in their yard. LOL Once you get a welder, projects materialize out of nowhere. I'll start on the 356 body one of these days.
Brett
Fun project. Definitely looking forward to hearing more.
I started welding last year. Like you, I got the welder for car projects. It hasn't seen a car part, yet, but I now have a new all-steel workbench/welding table and nice set of custom fitted metal shelves in my garage from my welding exploits. And, I was able to help out my in-laws by welding an ear back on an outdoor metal cat sculpture that they have in their yard. LOL Once you get a welder, projects materialize out of nowhere. I'll start on the 356 body one of these days.
Brett
It's not quantity but quality. Cams my friend, and all that lovely headwork not the bottom end alltogether. The early 915 has a shorter ring/pinion and long legs in the motor. As EPA dictated intake restrictions, the slower turning engines made power down low and that was paired with a little longer final drive to regain some flexibility.
I vote for an early car - 72/73 with 3.0 and carbs - as a fun project car. Lightweight, reliable, etc. I had a 69 with such a setup. I do prefer the 915 tranny versus 901; hence, the 72/73 option. Otherwise, the 69 models are the lightest (except 67 911R). As I think about the $ to properly backdate an SC or 3.2 Carrera plus the smog reqmnts in CA, I'd find a good solid early chassis first with a good interior. Better yet, you may find ones that are already done at a fraction of the build cost...though this means less of a project for you.
One thought: for a project car, would you rather work on the mechanicals or the body work? I tend to lean towards mechanical work.
One thought: for a project car, would you rather work on the mechanicals or the body work? I tend to lean towards mechanical work.
My advice is for you to buy someone's work. 70s 911 with 80s 3.2 motor or more. Lots of examples for sale. I bought mine for $30k (73 w/ 3.2 motor) and have owed it for 5 years and counting. Would sell if I could for the same money, but I learned market value is $25k or less so I'm keeping my baby instead of taking a loss on money I don't desperately need. I have a 996GT3 as well, but can honestly say an early 911 is a far more rewarding car to drive especially on the track. Alois Ruf himself said "there is no compensation (HP additions) for a light weight car (vs. newer, heavier cars)". My 73 911 /w 3,2 weights 2,200 lbs. Good luck with your search or build project.
I really like the tq in the 3.4 now. It comes on low and flat. The 993 doesn't wake up until 4500, and then pulls fast. When I drive that, I'm shifting like a madman.
When I drive Ruby, the torque and the longer gear diffs make it feel like a dragster with a 2 speed Torquegflite trans-it seems like it goes a long time between shifts. Must be the time/space continueum that rusnak refers to.
When I drive Ruby, the torque and the longer gear diffs make it feel like a dragster with a 2 speed Torquegflite trans-it seems like it goes a long time between shifts. Must be the time/space continueum that rusnak refers to.
03-03-2011, 12:55 AM
#32
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I did go look at a 1971 E Targa. Most of the body is great, four areas I could find were in the nose the small flange in front is rusted (not the whole front clip), the drivers door frame in the rear bottom corner, and the passenger rocker, and the front suspension pan. The areas I was worried about were fine. The corners of the windshield and the rear engine bay were nice. The car is packed in a corner of a lot and it isn't possible to get a good photo of the whole car. Here's some photos, take it in to consideratoin that I'm not looking for a pristine example, but more of a project that isn't a lost cause but then again not just a bolt up.
Can anyone give me some input on the 5th photo and the suspension set up and if this is typical of a 71? Or is it an update?
Can anyone give me some input on the 5th photo and the suspension set up and if this is typical of a 71? Or is it an update?
03-03-2011, 01:11 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Are you going to the swap meet in Anaheim this Sunday? You never know what you may see.
Lots of choices!
With all due respect to Pete, a Targa makes a fine hot rod, particularly where we live. The truth is that most mortals would not suffer any ill from body flex. Mark Donahue was actually fond of a Targa's handling and preferred it on a track when compared to a stock coupe. For a race car: no doubt a coupe is superior.
Lots of choices!
With all due respect to Pete, a Targa makes a fine hot rod, particularly where we live. The truth is that most mortals would not suffer any ill from body flex. Mark Donahue was actually fond of a Targa's handling and preferred it on a track when compared to a stock coupe. For a race car: no doubt a coupe is superior.
03-03-2011, 01:31 AM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Are you going to the swap meet in Anaheim this Sunday? You never know what you may see.
Lots of choices!
With all due respect to Pete, a Targa makes a fine hot rod, particularly where we live. The truth is that most mortals would not suffer any ill from body flex. Mark Donahue was actually fond of a Targa's handling and preferred it on a track when compared to a stock coupe. For a race car: no doubt a coupe is superior.
Lots of choices!
With all due respect to Pete, a Targa makes a fine hot rod, particularly where we live. The truth is that most mortals would not suffer any ill from body flex. Mark Donahue was actually fond of a Targa's handling and preferred it on a track when compared to a stock coupe. For a race car: no doubt a coupe is superior.
As for the Targa, the family and I were in LaJolla the other day and I watched a couple cruising down LaJolla Shores Dr. in a long hood targa. Top off, sunny outside and it was February.....
03-07-2011, 09:30 AM
#35
it has a late model carrera sway bar that attaches to the control arms , the correct sway bar goes through the body and pops out on each side above where the rubber break line connects to the solid line on the body.
Also looks like an aluminum front suspension cross member. If it is the car probably had a complete late model carrera suspension installed.
Also looks like an aluminum front suspension cross member. If it is the car probably had a complete late model carrera suspension installed.
03-07-2011, 10:09 AM
#36
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
it has a late model carrera sway bar that attaches to the control arms , the correct sway bar goes through the body and pops out on each side above where the rubber break line connects to the solid line on the body.
Also looks like an aluminum front suspension cross member. If it is the car probably had a complete late model carrera suspension installed.
Also looks like an aluminum front suspension cross member. If it is the car probably had a complete late model carrera suspension installed.
03-07-2011, 10:15 AM
#37
Race Car
Yes, that does look like a later front set up. The thru-body front sway bar is the prefered method however. Does the car have alloy rear trailing arms? just curious.
03-07-2011, 10:33 AM
#38
Drifting
Late model - has wider bolt spacing for the calipers - bigger TB - AL trailing arms. Do that - and go with either rebel racing or elephant racing suspension bushings. - Tarret sways - and beefy 22/28 TB and you;ll be pleased.
I too like the 3.4/993 SS cam combo - flat torque - and almost pulls like a turbo above 4500 rpms (but drives like a normal carrera around town)
I too like the 3.4/993 SS cam combo - flat torque - and almost pulls like a turbo above 4500 rpms (but drives like a normal carrera around town)
03-07-2011, 12:43 PM
#40
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
03-07-2011, 12:47 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Late model - has wider bolt spacing for the calipers - bigger TB - AL trailing arms. Do that - and go with either rebel racing or elephant racing suspension bushings. - Tarret sways - and beefy 22/28 TB and you;ll be pleased.
I too like the 3.4/993 SS cam combo - flat torque - and almost pulls like a turbo above 4500 rpms (but drives like a normal carrera around town)
I too like the 3.4/993 SS cam combo - flat torque - and almost pulls like a turbo above 4500 rpms (but drives like a normal carrera around town)
What do you guys think?
03-07-2011, 01:07 PM
#42
Drifting
Al crossmember is not critical - the weight savings is negligible - the weight (if there) is actually where you want it (low towards the front and in between the wheels) and if you go with a bigger MC - the steel one gives you just a tad more room (you'll have to notch the AL one)
03-07-2011, 01:21 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Oh, didn't think about it that way regarding the center of gravity. I'm still trying to figure out "MC"?
And all of this is irrelevant if I want to put coilovers on right? Are coilovers overkill?
And all of this is irrelevant if I want to put coilovers on right? Are coilovers overkill?
03-07-2011, 01:28 PM
#45
Drifting
master cylinder - if you put on bigger brakes - you'll need a bigger master cylinder - which means you need more room for a MC - hence my post.
Coilovers are great - but then you should really rework the tub - put gussets in to strengthen. since you are doing that - may as well strip and repaint. Make room for a nose cooler... Slippery slope.
Coilovers are great - but then you should really rework the tub - put gussets in to strengthen. since you are doing that - may as well strip and repaint. Make room for a nose cooler... Slippery slope.