K/N Air Filter
05-21-2010, 05:15 PM
#32
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
good luck
05-21-2010, 05:42 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
05-21-2010, 07:38 PM
#34
Race Car
A lot of the hype stems from ineffective CAI systems and the rice generation. K&N built a solid product for a long time for specific applications and still does.
05-22-2010, 02:56 PM
#35
Drifting
Use of K&N, or even a higher flow-through filter, more particulates allowed through, is perfectly justified, and warranted, in any racing venue wherein the engine life isn't expected to be beyond, say, 20,000 miles, or in many cases even 24 hours will do.
Every day driver....NOT ME...!!
Every day driver....NOT ME...!!
05-22-2010, 11:38 PM
#36
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please notify Richard at PMO and let him know that all these cars are only going to last 20,000 miles. They are putting them on street cars as fast as they can produce both the Carbs and ITB's. LOL
Use of K&N, or even a higher flow-through filter, more particulates allowed through, is perfectly justified, and warranted, in any racing venue wherein the engine life isn't expected to be beyond, say, 20,000 miles, or in many cases even 24 hours will do.
Every day driver....NOT ME...!!
Every day driver....NOT ME...!!
Last edited by Brads911sc; 05-23-2010 at 11:13 AM.
05-23-2010, 01:13 PM
#38
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That isnt what you said above. you said "engine life isn't expected to be beyond, say, 20,000 miles"
Please provide your scientific empirical proof. Otherwise... its just conjecture and opinion and doesnt belong in the discussion...
Im done with this discussion. You and M491 have proven to be less than credible. Throwing out silly numbers with no proof. We will leave it at that. Hopefully my questions havent been too abrupt... Again, I ask, if 1000's of these are sold, and everyones engines or MAF's are failing at 20k miles, then were are the lawsuits, and why are Steve W, PMO, and other reputable engine builders /companies still using them, even on street cars...
Please provide your scientific empirical proof. Otherwise... its just conjecture and opinion and doesnt belong in the discussion...
Im done with this discussion. You and M491 have proven to be less than credible. Throwing out silly numbers with no proof. We will leave it at that. Hopefully my questions havent been too abrupt... Again, I ask, if 1000's of these are sold, and everyones engines or MAF's are failing at 20k miles, then were are the lawsuits, and why are Steve W, PMO, and other reputable engine builders /companies still using them, even on street cars...
05-24-2010, 01:21 PM
#40
RL Technical Advisor
Wow,...interesting discussion. 
Frankly, its good to see passionate people offer their experiences and opinions for a healthy, constructive debate.
For the record, we do use K&N's in certain applications where there are little or no choices. Examples of this would be track or street cars equipped with carburetors, ITB's, custom intake systems, and in some cases, MFI. In those situations, our only options are K&N & ITG and we do use both.
IMHO, Motronic cars ('84-'10) last longer using the OEM paper elements due to two reasons. Fitment and media density on the OEM items are superior to the oiled gauze elements so there are no issues about dirt getting around the gasket surrounding the filter panel. Our flowbench has shown zero differences in airflow between a new paper element and a K&N or BMC. (BMC's actually fit better than K&N). Quite obviously, any aftermarket filter (oiled gauze or foam) must be correctly maintained to work as designed.
Environmental conditions vary all over the country, but we see less silica during oil analysis with the OEM paper filters than aftermarket ones. For street cars where maximum engine longevity is top priority, we use & recommend the OEM paper elements. Race engines are a totally different situation.
I hope this provides the missing context about what filters we use, recommend and for the different applications. Call me if you have further questions to prevent any confusion about this rather critical subject.
Frankly, its good to see passionate people offer their experiences and opinions for a healthy, constructive debate.
For the record, we do use K&N's in certain applications where there are little or no choices. Examples of this would be track or street cars equipped with carburetors, ITB's, custom intake systems, and in some cases, MFI. In those situations, our only options are K&N & ITG and we do use both.
IMHO, Motronic cars ('84-'10) last longer using the OEM paper elements due to two reasons. Fitment and media density on the OEM items are superior to the oiled gauze elements so there are no issues about dirt getting around the gasket surrounding the filter panel. Our flowbench has shown zero differences in airflow between a new paper element and a K&N or BMC. (BMC's actually fit better than K&N). Quite obviously, any aftermarket filter (oiled gauze or foam) must be correctly maintained to work as designed.
Environmental conditions vary all over the country, but we see less silica during oil analysis with the OEM paper filters than aftermarket ones. For street cars where maximum engine longevity is top priority, we use & recommend the OEM paper elements. Race engines are a totally different situation.
I hope this provides the missing context about what filters we use, recommend and for the different applications. Call me if you have further questions to prevent any confusion about this rather critical subject.
05-24-2010, 02:38 PM
#41
Advanced
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That isnt what you said above. you said "engine life isn't expected to be beyond, say, 20,000 miles"
Please provide your scientific empirical proof. Otherwise... its just conjecture and opinion and doesnt belong in the discussion...
Im done with this discussion. You and M491 have proven to be less than credible. Throwing out silly numbers with no proof. We will leave it at that. Hopefully my questions havent been too abrupt... Again, I ask, if 1000's of these are sold, and everyones engines or MAF's are failing at 20k miles, then were are the lawsuits, and why are Steve W, PMO, and other reputable engine builders /companies still using them, even on street cars...
Please provide your scientific empirical proof. Otherwise... its just conjecture and opinion and doesnt belong in the discussion...
Im done with this discussion. You and M491 have proven to be less than credible. Throwing out silly numbers with no proof. We will leave it at that. Hopefully my questions havent been too abrupt... Again, I ask, if 1000's of these are sold, and everyones engines or MAF's are failing at 20k miles, then were are the lawsuits, and why are Steve W, PMO, and other reputable engine builders /companies still using them, even on street cars...
I thought conjecture and opinion were always allowed. Else this would be a boring place. As to your comments about "1000's of these are sold"... well 1000's of McDonald's cheeseburgers are sold everyday but I would not put one of those in my mouth. But others find them delicious obviously. Who's right?
Tom
05-24-2010, 04:10 PM
#42
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course conjecture is allowed. That, and bad science, are what makes K&N.
That's why when you go to Pep Boys, you see the K&N "scientific" display with their filter and a ping pong ball, side to side with a stock paper filter and a ping pong ball. Blow the same amount of air through both of them and VOILA!
The K&N ping pong ball goes higher!
Thus, "scientifically" proving that putting a K&N in your SC or Carrera will provide more power. That's "K&N Science."
(For those not following carefully, that "scientific" experiment does not prove that the filter will give your car more power. It only demonstrates that the K&N has the potential to flow more. However, it will not flow more in actual use if your stock filter is already capable of flowing more air than your engine can process. Which has been proven on the dyno to be the case with just about every European car out there).
I received data from K&N several years ago regarding their filters. Even K&N did NOT claim that their filters were as effective as the stock paper filters at filtering particles. Their own data showed that their filters are NOT as effective. You could probably e-mail them even today, and get the same info. (You'll note their ads never claim they are as effective as paper filters at filtering particulates).
So, there is no dispute they are not as effective at filtering. So, why use one?
The only possible answers:
1) Because you think they will improve the performance of your car (i.e., make it faster, more power), and you are willing to give up some filtering effectiveness in exchange for more power.
Problem with that, is what is that belief based on? Conjecture, usually. Because when you put a Porsche on a dyno, like Bruce Anderson has done many times, and test the filters, you see that since the stock filter is capable of flowing more air than the engine can use, swapping it out with an aftermarket one does nothing to increase performance).
2) You have some kind of nonfactory intake and there is therefore no factory air filter that fits, and only K&N makes a filter that fits.
Umm, I guess in that case a K&N is better than nothing.
The bottom line is this: The only reason to not use the Factory approved OE filter is if you can PROVE that there is something wrong with it. I.e., that it is either not effective as a filter, or that it is choking performance from the engine. I'd challenge anyone to PROVE either is true.
That's why when you go to Pep Boys, you see the K&N "scientific" display with their filter and a ping pong ball, side to side with a stock paper filter and a ping pong ball. Blow the same amount of air through both of them and VOILA!
The K&N ping pong ball goes higher!
Thus, "scientifically" proving that putting a K&N in your SC or Carrera will provide more power. That's "K&N Science."
(For those not following carefully, that "scientific" experiment does not prove that the filter will give your car more power. It only demonstrates that the K&N has the potential to flow more. However, it will not flow more in actual use if your stock filter is already capable of flowing more air than your engine can process. Which has been proven on the dyno to be the case with just about every European car out there).
I received data from K&N several years ago regarding their filters. Even K&N did NOT claim that their filters were as effective as the stock paper filters at filtering particles. Their own data showed that their filters are NOT as effective. You could probably e-mail them even today, and get the same info. (You'll note their ads never claim they are as effective as paper filters at filtering particulates).
So, there is no dispute they are not as effective at filtering. So, why use one?
The only possible answers:
1) Because you think they will improve the performance of your car (i.e., make it faster, more power), and you are willing to give up some filtering effectiveness in exchange for more power.
Problem with that, is what is that belief based on? Conjecture, usually. Because when you put a Porsche on a dyno, like Bruce Anderson has done many times, and test the filters, you see that since the stock filter is capable of flowing more air than the engine can use, swapping it out with an aftermarket one does nothing to increase performance).
2) You have some kind of nonfactory intake and there is therefore no factory air filter that fits, and only K&N makes a filter that fits.
Umm, I guess in that case a K&N is better than nothing.
The bottom line is this: The only reason to not use the Factory approved OE filter is if you can PROVE that there is something wrong with it. I.e., that it is either not effective as a filter, or that it is choking performance from the engine. I'd challenge anyone to PROVE either is true.
05-24-2010, 05:07 PM
#43
I haddah Google dat
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems;7596847]Wow,...interesting discussion.
Our flowbench has shown zero differences in airflow between a new paper element and a K&N or BMC. (BMC's actually fit better than K&N). Quite obviously, any aftermarket filter (oiled gauze or foam) must be correctly maintained to work as designed.
we see less silica during oil analysis with the OEM paper filters than aftermarket ones.
For street cars where maximum engine longevity is top priority, we use & recommend the OEM paper elements. Race engines are a totally different situation.
QUOTE]
Re-posted for emphasis. This is what makes this forum pretty darn great.
Our flowbench has shown zero differences in airflow between a new paper element and a K&N or BMC. (BMC's actually fit better than K&N). Quite obviously, any aftermarket filter (oiled gauze or foam) must be correctly maintained to work as designed.
we see less silica during oil analysis with the OEM paper filters than aftermarket ones.
For street cars where maximum engine longevity is top priority, we use & recommend the OEM paper elements. Race engines are a totally different situation.
QUOTE]
Re-posted for emphasis. This is what makes this forum pretty darn great.
05-24-2010, 06:43 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Wow, great thread.
Been considering cleaning up the engine bay, removing the AC and backdating the heat.
Also been thinking about going to the K&N, but based on this it seems the only reason to do so would be easy access & the look.
I think I will stay stock.
Thanks all.
Been considering cleaning up the engine bay, removing the AC and backdating the heat.
Also been thinking about going to the K&N, but based on this it seems the only reason to do so would be easy access & the look.
I think I will stay stock.
Thanks all.