I got beat up on by a Mustang guy and couldn't defend myself
05-20-2003, 12:16 AM
#31
Speaking of Ford's, this is an interesting car:
<a href="http://www.classicauto-sales.com/cars/shelby66/index.html" target="_blank">Link</a>
I've met the owner of this place and he is very legit...
<a href="http://www.classicauto-sales.com/cars/shelby66/index.html" target="_blank">Link</a>
I've met the owner of this place and he is very legit...
05-20-2003, 12:16 AM
#32
Instructor
George's is a drag car. It is about as relevant as me saying that my BMW 2002 engine is better because it can be built out to 1100 - 1400hp...
... cause thats what the BMW F1 motor made bback in the turbocharged era (the block is the same).
The original question was:
He went right off about how Porsche's are over-rated, expensive and no better than any 60s muscle car. ... why do they have Achilles heels? such as shifting, head studs and temperature control?
Either way, right off the showroom floor Porsche offered cars which could be taken to a race track and thrashed mercilessly without destroying brakes and engine. An unmodified mustang is gonna struggle with that.
Ditto George's V8. In fact, the only thing it has going for it (other than the apparently lighter weight) is the huge capacity. If I had that kind of capacity, I'd have a lot more horsies too. George engine is pretty heavily modified, and his installation is pretty extensive in the pics I have seen. It isn't simply a run of the mill V8 bunged in the back of a 911.
... cause thats what the BMW F1 motor made bback in the turbocharged era (the block is the same).
The original question was:
He went right off about how Porsche's are over-rated, expensive and no better than any 60s muscle car. ... why do they have Achilles heels? such as shifting, head studs and temperature control?
Either way, right off the showroom floor Porsche offered cars which could be taken to a race track and thrashed mercilessly without destroying brakes and engine. An unmodified mustang is gonna struggle with that.
Ditto George's V8. In fact, the only thing it has going for it (other than the apparently lighter weight) is the huge capacity. If I had that kind of capacity, I'd have a lot more horsies too. George engine is pretty heavily modified, and his installation is pretty extensive in the pics I have seen. It isn't simply a run of the mill V8 bunged in the back of a 911.
05-20-2003, 01:02 AM
#33
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by George 911-V8:
<strong>BOB D: It out handles 993 twins and has the same brake system as a 993 twin. The weight of the car is 49% front 51% rear and weighs less than a 993 twin 3040lbs with me in it. The small block weighs 100 pounds less than the porsche so whats your point about drag only?
George</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So, If I take my old 408 SBC (which was pushing that car to mid 11's) out of my ex -67 Camaro and drop it into my 911 I should be able to tear apart a 993 on a road course? There's the issue of tractibility and torque curve. If you're on carbs with a small block, the power delivery is something like flipping a light switch - the powerband will look like someone's EKG reading. You're not gonna use that type of delivery on a road course. You have nasty cams, you have no low torque. with 630 HP on tap, I'll bet it's a dog at part throttle.
But your car looks good.
rjp
<strong>BOB D: It out handles 993 twins and has the same brake system as a 993 twin. The weight of the car is 49% front 51% rear and weighs less than a 993 twin 3040lbs with me in it. The small block weighs 100 pounds less than the porsche so whats your point about drag only?
George</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So, If I take my old 408 SBC (which was pushing that car to mid 11's) out of my ex -67 Camaro and drop it into my 911 I should be able to tear apart a 993 on a road course? There's the issue of tractibility and torque curve. If you're on carbs with a small block, the power delivery is something like flipping a light switch - the powerband will look like someone's EKG reading. You're not gonna use that type of delivery on a road course. You have nasty cams, you have no low torque. with 630 HP on tap, I'll bet it's a dog at part throttle.
But your car looks good.
rjp
05-20-2003, 01:28 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
Just tell him his engine is in the wrong place. 
Seriously - how much actual hands on experiance does this guy have with Porsche's? Sounds like he knows his American muscle in and out, but someone who refers to a 911 as "overrated" has obviously never driven one.
Any properly modified "puny 4 banger" 951 would embarress just about anything built in the late 60's and early 70's from Detroit.
I guess all it boils down to is what you like. If he's too pig headed I wouldnt even bother arguing with them... just smile and nod your head (they hate that.) If he likes spinning tires at every intersection and shooting his 4500 lbs car off the track, fine - different strokes for different folks.
IMO, anyone who is activly trying to embarress a fellow enthusiast regarding car choice either has a ***** or small dyno numbers.
Seriously - how much actual hands on experiance does this guy have with Porsche's? Sounds like he knows his American muscle in and out, but someone who refers to a 911 as "overrated" has obviously never driven one.
Any properly modified "puny 4 banger" 951 would embarress just about anything built in the late 60's and early 70's from Detroit.
I guess all it boils down to is what you like. If he's too pig headed I wouldnt even bother arguing with them... just smile and nod your head (they hate that.) If he likes spinning tires at every intersection and shooting his 4500 lbs car off the track, fine - different strokes for different folks.
IMO, anyone who is activly trying to embarress a fellow enthusiast regarding car choice either has a ***** or small dyno numbers.
05-20-2003, 03:47 AM
#35
You know, I have never had a Mustang guy tell me that after a session at the track. Before, maybe. But never after. Instead they ask me everything I can tell them about a 911 or how a basically stock 3.0 can be so fast. First thing I mention is dry sump and its advantages. I can't remember the last F1, Endurance or Indy car race run with even a single wet sump motor. In any case, the advantages of a flat six are not immediately obvious. Unless you take them apart and see things like it's crankshaft, the ammount of main bearings for it's size, nickel silicon impregnated cylinders, oiling, etc... In the end, you are taliking about a handbuilt motor. Things can be over rated. But over rated things will not sell long term and be extremely successful in racing for over 30 years. Only near perfection will.
Trying to explain things like that to the layman are tough at best. But iformation and enlightenment does work its way even into the hardest of heads. You will easily find someone who was into pushrods become a flat six convert. But it is very hard to find the opposite. Of course, some people are truly in their own world and can never see the light. Or maybe they are at a different stage in life. Maybe it is the way they consider the dubuious act of "burning rubber" in an intersection to be a zen-line experience. I myself, was also fascinated by such idiotic acts when I was at an adolescent age. Of course, I have grown beyond that point. Maybe they will also.
Explaining things like this to average people in America is about as hard as explaining why Football (soccer) is the greatest team/ball sport in the world. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But the truth of the matter is that sometimes, there are much more people sharing the same one opinion than any other. Especially when polling the world instead of the locale. And when one is speaking of the flat six, there is a general concensus with almost no equal. Personally, I wouldn't waste one moment having an argument with anyone like the person you mention. Whenever I find myself in situations like that, I end up being more of a teacher than someone enjoying a conversation. And I am not even an expert. Now if someone wants to come talk to me about comparing the Colombo V12 to the flat six, for example, then I am game. But having an intelligent discussion with someone who does not know any more about the history of motorsport than some kid working at Pep Boys, will always be a wastefull enterprise in my book. Besides, why would I waste time talking about non-exotic, semi-agrarian powerplants that are used in pickup trucks, when I can be talking about exotic, symphonic sounding powerplants that dreams are made of.
Trying to explain things like that to the layman are tough at best. But iformation and enlightenment does work its way even into the hardest of heads. You will easily find someone who was into pushrods become a flat six convert. But it is very hard to find the opposite. Of course, some people are truly in their own world and can never see the light. Or maybe they are at a different stage in life. Maybe it is the way they consider the dubuious act of "burning rubber" in an intersection to be a zen-line experience. I myself, was also fascinated by such idiotic acts when I was at an adolescent age. Of course, I have grown beyond that point. Maybe they will also.
Explaining things like this to average people in America is about as hard as explaining why Football (soccer) is the greatest team/ball sport in the world. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But the truth of the matter is that sometimes, there are much more people sharing the same one opinion than any other. Especially when polling the world instead of the locale. And when one is speaking of the flat six, there is a general concensus with almost no equal. Personally, I wouldn't waste one moment having an argument with anyone like the person you mention. Whenever I find myself in situations like that, I end up being more of a teacher than someone enjoying a conversation. And I am not even an expert. Now if someone wants to come talk to me about comparing the Colombo V12 to the flat six, for example, then I am game. But having an intelligent discussion with someone who does not know any more about the history of motorsport than some kid working at Pep Boys, will always be a wastefull enterprise in my book. Besides, why would I waste time talking about non-exotic, semi-agrarian powerplants that are used in pickup trucks, when I can be talking about exotic, symphonic sounding powerplants that dreams are made of.
05-20-2003, 10:13 AM
#37
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Randy P, part throttle in the Swamp Monster would likely surprise you. At 3000 rpm it's making over 300 hp. Most of these guys who have all the issues with this car (including you) would wet their pants in that car. Lets see, that would put the SM making more power right off idle than your car does at red line.
Ed, I'm not trying to beat on the flat 6 but this is a motor that has been refined over the last 40 years. To say this engine is problematic is an understatement. Read this board. It is loaded with problem after problem. Studs, cases, valve guides, air boxes, the list goes on forever. All the dry sump & silicone impregnation in the world won't help when the studs break ot the threads pull out of the cases or the air box cracks, chain tensioner fails, etc, etc.. And if your statement is an insinuation that George or myself are working with the knowledge or intellect of a Pep Boys clerk then you can pucker up while I bend over.
Without question Ford, Cherolet & Porsche have built a lot of junk. Also without question in the right hands, engines from Ford, Cherolet & Porsche can be turned into powerful, reliable engines. Nobody's calling your kid stupid. I'm just saying that Porsche like all other marques has had it's high & low points, strong & weak points. As time has gone on most brands have improved. You've heard 911SC state that his Cobra out handles his 911. Without question Porsche's best will out perform all American cars excluding the Z06. At almost triple the money that's no big brag. Porsche has focused on elements of performance (extreme cornering & top speed) that most buyers never use. Personally I wish they would focus moer on USABLE performance. To date, Porsche has NOT produced an engine that can be modified to the level of performance & reliability that George is experiencing without spending upwards of $40k on just the motor. And here it is for everybody to read. IMHO all of these guys claiming to make 600, 700. 800 & even 900 or more hp from a stock short block anything are full of crap.
Ed, I'm not trying to beat on the flat 6 but this is a motor that has been refined over the last 40 years. To say this engine is problematic is an understatement. Read this board. It is loaded with problem after problem. Studs, cases, valve guides, air boxes, the list goes on forever. All the dry sump & silicone impregnation in the world won't help when the studs break ot the threads pull out of the cases or the air box cracks, chain tensioner fails, etc, etc.. And if your statement is an insinuation that George or myself are working with the knowledge or intellect of a Pep Boys clerk then you can pucker up while I bend over.
Without question Ford, Cherolet & Porsche have built a lot of junk. Also without question in the right hands, engines from Ford, Cherolet & Porsche can be turned into powerful, reliable engines. Nobody's calling your kid stupid. I'm just saying that Porsche like all other marques has had it's high & low points, strong & weak points. As time has gone on most brands have improved. You've heard 911SC state that his Cobra out handles his 911. Without question Porsche's best will out perform all American cars excluding the Z06. At almost triple the money that's no big brag. Porsche has focused on elements of performance (extreme cornering & top speed) that most buyers never use. Personally I wish they would focus moer on USABLE performance. To date, Porsche has NOT produced an engine that can be modified to the level of performance & reliability that George is experiencing without spending upwards of $40k on just the motor. And here it is for everybody to read. IMHO all of these guys claiming to make 600, 700. 800 & even 900 or more hp from a stock short block anything are full of crap.
05-20-2003, 10:27 AM
#38
CamB - are you saying that the 2002 iron block was used in the Benneton F1 car??????????
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-20-2003, 10:39 AM
#39
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better yet... ask him why big heavy cars can't go around corners...nothing like hittin an on ramp or a tight corner and throwin my 85 targa into it...not even a squeal .....
05-20-2003, 11:46 AM
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Your problems with the flat 6 mentioned have been updated and fixed already. I don't see what the problem is. BTW, the 3.0 flat six weighs about 430lbs with everything on it (including stock exhaust and fuel management), but no oil. It's interesting to know that your 8 weighs less than that. And one more thing, i don't know where your getting 40K. Maybe if your having a porsche specialist do the work since labor charges are outrageous. I'll tell you this, turbocharging a an sc engine if you have the time and 10k can be done (and i was quoted this figure including exhaust and tec3 engine management). So 40k is a little high man, it's just annoying to have to read a lot of books to get into the right state of mind to work on the cars (since everything feels kind of a$$ backwards at first). Even going from a 944 to a 911 is a pain in the a$$. Sorry to hear that you didn't like the experience, because i am loving every moment.
05-20-2003, 12:15 PM
#41
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Carlos:
<strong>Randy P, part throttle in the Swamp Monster would likely surprise you. At 3000 rpm it's making over 300 hp. Most of these guys who have all the issues with this car (including you) would wet their pants in that car. Lets see, that would put the SM making more power right off idle than your car does at red line.
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So you tell me pulls hard. Just what exactly is inside that thing? Tell me?
Feel free to be technical- I'll understand. I wanna hear about this SB that can pull tree stumps off idle and yet do 630HP using Holley (or any brand for that matter) carbs. I want to clarify that i'm saying it could very well have dyno'd 630 HP, but what you get is a foul tempered, no low end torque having, valvetrain breaking and my guess overheating bother. And how's that thing for snapping driveline parts?
630 horses isn't scary. It's a pain in *** most of the time.
rjp
<strong>Randy P, part throttle in the Swamp Monster would likely surprise you. At 3000 rpm it's making over 300 hp. Most of these guys who have all the issues with this car (including you) would wet their pants in that car. Lets see, that would put the SM making more power right off idle than your car does at red line.
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">So you tell me pulls hard. Just what exactly is inside that thing? Tell me?
Feel free to be technical- I'll understand. I wanna hear about this SB that can pull tree stumps off idle and yet do 630HP using Holley (or any brand for that matter) carbs. I want to clarify that i'm saying it could very well have dyno'd 630 HP, but what you get is a foul tempered, no low end torque having, valvetrain breaking and my guess overheating bother. And how's that thing for snapping driveline parts?
630 horses isn't scary. It's a pain in *** most of the time.
rjp
05-20-2003, 01:36 PM
#43
Instructor
Why have a pissing contest? It's about the package. The whole package. I heard a quote the other day that I thought was fitting - and I am in the employment business. It was "If we all put into our jobs what Porsche puts into building cars, we would all be CEOs."
Sure, you can make any car go faster, hell you make a turd fly if you put wings on it, but it will still be a turd...
Sure, you can make any car go faster, hell you make a turd fly if you put wings on it, but it will still be a turd...
05-20-2003, 02:10 PM
#44
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Carlos, look at what you are writing here!
You are writing about problems from motors that have been in service for 25 years! Broken head studs and failed chain tensionless are not occurring on cars from 2001, they occur on cars from 1979. You show me one -- just one -- stock American motor that has lasted that long without any major work or problems. And the integrity of the body on every American car is for crap. Even the Z06 feels like a piece of junk.
I've owned all manner of American automobiles, and not one of them approached the level of quality over time that the 911 has. Every American car I've owned made it to the junkyard within 12 years. Every Porsche and Mercedes I've owned over the last 25 years is still running strong. Yes, some needed some work, but the only engine failure I've had is from over revving an SC motor -- that lasted for over 25 years and 100k miles of hard driving before that happened, with barely anything other than routine maintenance.
So you can honestly write that a Ford or Chevy, hopped up to all hell, is more reliable than a Porsche? Give me a break!
-Sean
You are writing about problems from motors that have been in service for 25 years! Broken head studs and failed chain tensionless are not occurring on cars from 2001, they occur on cars from 1979. You show me one -- just one -- stock American motor that has lasted that long without any major work or problems. And the integrity of the body on every American car is for crap. Even the Z06 feels like a piece of junk.
I've owned all manner of American automobiles, and not one of them approached the level of quality over time that the 911 has. Every American car I've owned made it to the junkyard within 12 years. Every Porsche and Mercedes I've owned over the last 25 years is still running strong. Yes, some needed some work, but the only engine failure I've had is from over revving an SC motor -- that lasted for over 25 years and 100k miles of hard driving before that happened, with barely anything other than routine maintenance.
So you can honestly write that a Ford or Chevy, hopped up to all hell, is more reliable than a Porsche? Give me a break!
-Sean
05-20-2003, 02:16 PM
#45
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That sounds like the voice of experience Jeremy.
Randy P, Since George has already gone over this it's no breaking news. 383 inch small block Chevrolet, fast burn heads & Edlebrock intake ported by Meaux Racing Heads, custom grind roller cam & valve train by Cam Motion, forged steel crank & rotating assembley from Scat, 900 cfm Holley HP carb, custom headers & exhaust. As with any high performance engine the money is made with the heads & cam. It makes max power at 6300 and if you ever watch a Nascar race these engines run over seven grand all afternoon so breaking components is not an issue.
As for the driveline, give this some thought. When George was making 480 hp he broke every driveline piece from the clutch to the lug nuts. How do these 700 hp turbos (220 more than George) run like animals on stock drivelines. Give that some thought. Gotta go, lunch is over & Manny & Moe are visiting the store today.
Sean this is simple. Read this board!!!!! Any 911 engine that will even come close to George's level of performance requires constant attention & frequent overhauls. But if you think a Z06 compares poorly to your 88 911 I don't think I can help you.
Randy P, Since George has already gone over this it's no breaking news. 383 inch small block Chevrolet, fast burn heads & Edlebrock intake ported by Meaux Racing Heads, custom grind roller cam & valve train by Cam Motion, forged steel crank & rotating assembley from Scat, 900 cfm Holley HP carb, custom headers & exhaust. As with any high performance engine the money is made with the heads & cam. It makes max power at 6300 and if you ever watch a Nascar race these engines run over seven grand all afternoon so breaking components is not an issue.
As for the driveline, give this some thought. When George was making 480 hp he broke every driveline piece from the clutch to the lug nuts. How do these 700 hp turbos (220 more than George) run like animals on stock drivelines. Give that some thought. Gotta go, lunch is over & Manny & Moe are visiting the store today.
Sean this is simple. Read this board!!!!! Any 911 engine that will even come close to George's level of performance requires constant attention & frequent overhauls. But if you think a Z06 compares poorly to your 88 911 I don't think I can help you.