I got beat up on by a Mustang guy and couldn't defend myself
05-19-2003, 12:19 PM
#16
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I had a similar thing happen to me back in the day, but it was with a Ferrari fan. I didn't know my Porsche history and I didn't like that I could defend my self in a argument. So I went and did a major history lesson on Porsche. All Porsche fans should. Porsche has won more Endurance and sportscar races than ANY other mark in history. More wins at Lemans, Daytona and Sebring than any other mark. No other mark even comes close to matching them in overall wins let alone class wins!. The 911 in its variants has won more sportscar races over the years than ANY model in HISTORY! The 911 has won ralleys, hill climes and even the Paris Dakar. At last count a few years back it has over 29,000 WINS world wide! The GT40 is one of my favorite cars but the 908 won the Sportscar championship in 69 big time and no Ford/GT40 could even run with the 917! This Ford guy needs a history lesson, study up and give it to him. 
05-19-2003, 01:21 PM
#17
Hoffman912-you forgot one of my favorites, which a buddy of mine who did demolition derbys concocted. After he and I spent all day preparing an LTD to demo, we took it out to the track and the car wouldn't start!! It was the only time we competed in a Ford, hence he came up with:
F-fails
o-on
r-race
d-day!!
Flatout, the 911 is the most successful sports car in history in terms of production based racing. Ferrari's racing history speaks for itself, but none of their road based cars have won anything of any substance (at least in the last 20 years), although the 360 Modena is very competitive.
The Ferrari 512 was a worthy competitor to the 917, but it suffered from a lack of development as Ferrari was also in F1 at the time and couldn't put the necessary time/$$$ into the 512. Ferrari decided to concentrate on F1, and Porsche pulled the plug on its own F1 program in the early 1960s'. A buddy of mine once said "the Germans make great sports racers but can't build a modern single seat racing car" and I look at Porsche's own Indy car effort and I start thinking he is right...
As for Ford's own racing effort, look at the pounding the Jaguar F1 effort is taking....
I have a 1982 911SC and I'm wondering if I have enough hp to run with the latest rice rockets with the coffee can exhausts. A 3.6L upgrade may be in order...
If I had the money, I'd have a red 360 Modena Spyder to cruise around in (weekends)and a yellow Porsche GT3 to go nuts in (everyday).
As I tell all my buddies, "The only bad thing about a Porsche is realizing how many lessor automobiles there are out there and having to share the road with them". HAHA!
F-fails
o-on
r-race
d-day!!
Flatout, the 911 is the most successful sports car in history in terms of production based racing. Ferrari's racing history speaks for itself, but none of their road based cars have won anything of any substance (at least in the last 20 years), although the 360 Modena is very competitive.
The Ferrari 512 was a worthy competitor to the 917, but it suffered from a lack of development as Ferrari was also in F1 at the time and couldn't put the necessary time/$$$ into the 512. Ferrari decided to concentrate on F1, and Porsche pulled the plug on its own F1 program in the early 1960s'. A buddy of mine once said "the Germans make great sports racers but can't build a modern single seat racing car" and I look at Porsche's own Indy car effort and I start thinking he is right...
As for Ford's own racing effort, look at the pounding the Jaguar F1 effort is taking....
I have a 1982 911SC and I'm wondering if I have enough hp to run with the latest rice rockets with the coffee can exhausts. A 3.6L upgrade may be in order...
If I had the money, I'd have a red 360 Modena Spyder to cruise around in (weekends)and a yellow Porsche GT3 to go nuts in (everyday).
As I tell all my buddies, "The only bad thing about a Porsche is realizing how many lessor automobiles there are out there and having to share the road with them". HAHA!
05-19-2003, 02:06 PM
#18
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I have owned 5 variants of the 911 and have very little knowledge of its racing history (other than Porsche hasn't done much lately). I also accept that a lot of cars that cost way less money (WRX, Mustang Cobra, Corvette Z06, etc.) can beat their new P-car counterparts in some performance aspects. I would never even bother to argue with someone as to why a Porsche is better or worse than another car. This is a completely subjective argument in any event. I usually tell people I can't explain my Porsche fixation other than you have to spend time driving one to understand. There is some unidentifiable aspect that makes the car a pleasure to drive. I told my nieghbor the other day that every time I drive one of my 911s, I learn something new. It is always a challenge and always a reward. Oh, and there is no other reliable sports car that is so timelessly beautiful.
05-19-2003, 02:41 PM
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IWANNAGOFASTER: I have to agree with him. I have two small block ford engines one is a 405 that makes over 1800hp and the other is a 418 that makes over 2000hp.So to say that ford don't make power your smoking CRACK!!!!! I have ford robert yates heads and yes they are blue oval. I hate to say it but all that porsche race history didn't do a dam for me when I was porsche powered in my 911 carrera. Porsche hasn't won a race in a long long time, The 962 was the last bad *** machine from porsche. When a porsche has to race against other cars they lose, now at one time they were the car to beat but not anymore. I spent a small fortune just to keep it running, hell in plain terms it was a piece of crap motor bottomline junk. The car was in the shop for one thing or another and was slow as a pig. I love my car no doubt thats why I put a small block chevy engine in it. I now don't have to worry about it breaking weekly and costing me a small fortune to keep it running any more. All I do now is fill it up with gas drive worry free and if I have to put the petal down I have some big hp to do the talking. I had ponies before with the porsche motor now I have horses with a real motor.
FORD = FIRST ON RACE DAY
BTW: The ford motor has done quite well in racing, winning a winston cup championship. The winston cup ford motor makes about 750hp small block with yates heads and goes 600 miles @ 8500prm's, now thats endurance if you ask me!!
George <a href="http://www.buckwheatracing.com" target="_blank">BUCKWHEATRACING</a> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
FORD = FIRST ON RACE DAY
BTW: The ford motor has done quite well in racing, winning a winston cup championship. The winston cup ford motor makes about 750hp small block with yates heads and goes 600 miles @ 8500prm's, now thats endurance if you ask me!!
George <a href="http://www.buckwheatracing.com" target="_blank">BUCKWHEATRACING</a> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-19-2003, 03:07 PM
#21
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My post was a response to the main post on the topic of a Ford fan and sportscar racing history. Not on who makes the best car topic or what mark is better bang for the buck. I'm fully aware of Ferrari's history and wasn't comparing Porsche and that mark. On the topic of Porsche racing their history says it all. George it's nice that you have such powerful drag race motors. Porsche has never been into drag racing and those motors wouldn't last an hour in an endurance race. Sorry but I don't get your point. Also, bummer that you had a bad P-motor I have a great one and love it.
05-19-2003, 03:34 PM
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"and no Ford/GT40 could even run with the 917!" OOPS!
A small misstatement there. An obsolete GT40 won LeMans in 69, ahead of a Porsche 908 and all of the 917's. As a matter of fact, it was the same chassis number Ford that won LeMans the year before.
As far as street Fords go, my other everyday ride is a 4 cam Mustang Cobra. It's tons quicker and faster than my 82 911SC, it uses less gas and it has nice AC. I'll bet it also corners faster on a smooth road and the brakes are much more powerful, even if they don't have the good feedback the 911 brakes do.
There are horses for courses, and my stock 911 wouldn't take my stock Ford in most races. That said, I wouldn't want to do much hopping up of my 4 cam Cobra. I think it would scatter if I did. the OHV ones are probably better for hopping up, and compared to P-car parts, you can replace a lot of stuff (heads, rods, cranks, cams) for a heck of a lot less than any Porsche parts.
The 911 engine is not very modern, but it's probably considerably stouter than the new Ford stuff.
Regards,
Jerry
A small misstatement there. An obsolete GT40 won LeMans in 69, ahead of a Porsche 908 and all of the 917's. As a matter of fact, it was the same chassis number Ford that won LeMans the year before.
As far as street Fords go, my other everyday ride is a 4 cam Mustang Cobra. It's tons quicker and faster than my 82 911SC, it uses less gas and it has nice AC. I'll bet it also corners faster on a smooth road and the brakes are much more powerful, even if they don't have the good feedback the 911 brakes do.
There are horses for courses, and my stock 911 wouldn't take my stock Ford in most races. That said, I wouldn't want to do much hopping up of my 4 cam Cobra. I think it would scatter if I did. the OHV ones are probably better for hopping up, and compared to P-car parts, you can replace a lot of stuff (heads, rods, cranks, cams) for a heck of a lot less than any Porsche parts.
The 911 engine is not very modern, but it's probably considerably stouter than the new Ford stuff.
Regards,
Jerry
05-19-2003, 04:27 PM
#23
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Jerry, 5.0 magazine did a peice recently on a new Cobra with a replacement blower from Kenne Bell. With the blower, a chip & a throttle body it made 607 or 610 hp at the rear wheels. Stock exhaust, stock everything. Line that up next to a TT and he'll put his car up for sale.
05-19-2003, 04:58 PM
#24
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True about 69 Lemans and the 917, I should of clarified. Piech pushed the 917 into racing a tad too soon. I meant once sorted no GT40 could run with a 917 and in 69 they were running away with Lemans. Reliability with gear boxs hurt that year. Still, Porsche won the 69 championship with the 908 vs GT40. In any event this Ford fan obviously didn't know about the history of Lemans and who is the real legend there. 
05-19-2003, 06:59 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Porschephanatic:
<strong>I'm surprised he didn't mention all of Ford's Formula 1 victories. I had a 351M ONCE! What a POS! Never again!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not to mention their unbroken streak of Formula Ford victories <img border="0" alt="[sleep]" title="" src="graemlins/sleep.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[sleep]" title="" src="graemlins/sleep.gif" />
<strong>I'm surprised he didn't mention all of Ford's Formula 1 victories.
I had a 351M ONCE! What a POS! Never again!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not to mention their unbroken streak of Formula Ford victories <img border="0" alt="[sleep]" title="" src="graemlins/sleep.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[sleep]" title="" src="graemlins/sleep.gif" />
05-19-2003, 07:07 PM
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To each his own. Porsches are not for everybody. It's not a drag-race car (unless you do what George did, but that ruins it IMHO). But let's get real people. Who the hell would really want a Ford over a Porsche? Even Chevy has the Corvette, which is at least comparable (though fit & finish is awful). What does Ford have?
Speaking just of the air-cooled 911: it is fun, quick, raw, and handles great. The build quality can't be beat. The design is from the sixties and lasted essentially through 1998 in grand fashion. The post '77 motors last well over 100k w/o major problems, and the shell a whole lot longer.
If you think a Ford motor is more durable than a Porsche motor, you're on crack. Ever notice how many Crown Vic cabs blow smoke -- and that's not even a performance car. Mustangs have a terrible repair history -- check out consumer reports. The old Explorer, an engineering marvel, eh? Firestone is not completely to blame on that one.
Look at all the crap Ford has put out year by year in comparison to Porsche. 1978 for example: new 3.0 in the SC at about 185 hp, meanwhile Ford had the Pinto-based Mustang Cobra II at, what, about 130hp and tons more weight. Drum brakes, live axle, horrible quality and appearance.
Now, I know that Mustang was a lot cheaper, but now the'78 SC is still very desirable, and worth at least $12-16k in good shape. How about the 'Stang? Are there even any left on the road? If so, who would want it?
Hell, even today the Mustang is riding on the '79 Fox body. Porsche at least had a quality body that they could run the 911 in for the 30-plus years it was air-cooled. They even used it as the basis for racecars, high-powered Turbo cars, even the 959 to some extent. Try driving any Mustang, even a Saleen, and see how it feels at 140 mph compared to a '88 Carrera Coupe.
Bottom line, you want something cheap and fast that you can drag with and beat some Honda punks? Go get an early '90s Mustang 5.0 and hop it up. You want a quality, classic car? Get a Porsche. (Yes, I know there are several classic 60's Mustangs, but they don't have much power for their weight and drive like crap -- even the Shelbys -- but they are pretty nice to look at).
Anyway, if you drive it right, you can still beat most crap on the road with a bone-stock 20-year-old Porsche.
-Sean
Speaking just of the air-cooled 911: it is fun, quick, raw, and handles great. The build quality can't be beat. The design is from the sixties and lasted essentially through 1998 in grand fashion. The post '77 motors last well over 100k w/o major problems, and the shell a whole lot longer.
If you think a Ford motor is more durable than a Porsche motor, you're on crack. Ever notice how many Crown Vic cabs blow smoke -- and that's not even a performance car. Mustangs have a terrible repair history -- check out consumer reports. The old Explorer, an engineering marvel, eh? Firestone is not completely to blame on that one.
Look at all the crap Ford has put out year by year in comparison to Porsche. 1978 for example: new 3.0 in the SC at about 185 hp, meanwhile Ford had the Pinto-based Mustang Cobra II at, what, about 130hp and tons more weight. Drum brakes, live axle, horrible quality and appearance.
Now, I know that Mustang was a lot cheaper, but now the'78 SC is still very desirable, and worth at least $12-16k in good shape. How about the 'Stang? Are there even any left on the road? If so, who would want it?
Hell, even today the Mustang is riding on the '79 Fox body. Porsche at least had a quality body that they could run the 911 in for the 30-plus years it was air-cooled. They even used it as the basis for racecars, high-powered Turbo cars, even the 959 to some extent. Try driving any Mustang, even a Saleen, and see how it feels at 140 mph compared to a '88 Carrera Coupe.
Bottom line, you want something cheap and fast that you can drag with and beat some Honda punks? Go get an early '90s Mustang 5.0 and hop it up. You want a quality, classic car? Get a Porsche. (Yes, I know there are several classic 60's Mustangs, but they don't have much power for their weight and drive like crap -- even the Shelbys -- but they are pretty nice to look at).
Anyway, if you drive it right, you can still beat most crap on the road with a bone-stock 20-year-old Porsche.
-Sean
05-19-2003, 07:07 PM
#27
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BOB D: I feel like you I had a 3.2 porsche engine in my carrera once what a POS never again for me!!!!! I guess I got a bad motor. BTW Sean why do you think the swamp monster is drag only? It out handles 993 twins and has the same brake system as a 993 twin. The weight of the car is 49% front 51% rear and weighs less than a 993 twin 3040lbs with me in it. The small block weighs 100 pounds less than the porsche so whats your point about drag only?
George
George
05-19-2003, 09:15 PM
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Hey George, I'm sure that thing's a blast to drive, but I'm in to keeping cars stock. Is it really a Porsche with a non-Porsche motor? Maybe, but whatever floats your boat. I'm glad you love it. Porsche owners are quite a diverse bunch!
I didn't say your car was drag only, but I'm sure it's a lot better for that purpose than a regular 3.2 911 with that V-8 in it!
-Sean
I didn't say your car was drag only, but I'm sure it's a lot better for that purpose than a regular 3.2 911 with that V-8 in it!
-Sean
05-19-2003, 11:51 PM
#30
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by George 911-V8:
<strong>IWANNAGOFASTER: I have to agree with him. I have two small block ford engines one is a 405 that makes over 1800hp and the other is a 418 that makes over 2000hp.So to say that ford don't make power your smoking CRACK!!!!! I have ford robert yates heads and yes they are blue oval.George <a href="http://www.buckwheatracing.com" target="_blank">BUCKWHEATRACING</a> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ok, I'll bite. 2000 HP Ford V8? And what exactly is this loaded into? A Pro Mod car? I know of guys who run alcohol K boats uncapped with more cubes who turn that! I'm not saying it's impossible (OK, I LIED, I do think it's impossible on factory parts), but you're not gonna tell me its a 351wimpy with a hot cam either. I wanna check this out..
rjp
<strong>IWANNAGOFASTER: I have to agree with him. I have two small block ford engines one is a 405 that makes over 1800hp and the other is a 418 that makes over 2000hp.So to say that ford don't make power your smoking CRACK!!!!! I have ford robert yates heads and yes they are blue oval.George <a href="http://www.buckwheatracing.com" target="_blank">BUCKWHEATRACING</a> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ok, I'll bite. 2000 HP Ford V8? And what exactly is this loaded into? A Pro Mod car? I know of guys who run alcohol K boats uncapped with more cubes who turn that! I'm not saying it's impossible (OK, I LIED, I do think it's impossible on factory parts), but you're not gonna tell me its a 351wimpy with a hot cam either. I wanna check this out..
rjp