Peter Zimmermann

I'll second Edward's post, especially the suggestion to go 21/28. Fresh HD Bilsteins will work fine with that setup, but I'll defer to the experts regarding solid vs hollow, as well as bushing type (it's been a number of years since I last set up a track car and things have probably changed since).

84_Carrera

I have an '84 Cab. I did the works except the adjustable sways, which might happen if I keep the car past this summer.

I did a writeup on the install w/ pics, front & rear dating back to July 2007 in this section. I also did Elephants too. Sig has most of my details... feel free to give me a shout. Oh, and I did speak with Steve Weiner (who I bought from), and he was helpful during the install in my driveway...



Search for my threads "rear suspension replacement" & "front suspension replacement" for a few laughs.

911vet

Thanks for all the input. It seems a call to Elephant and Steve are in order.

84_Carrera: I haven't decided whether to tackle this project myself or turn it over to a local shop that does P-car work. Time to visit your thread and see what I think.

911vet

The 21/28 does seem to be the "consensus." I'll discuss it with Elephant and others. But I am leary to going too stiff in this car. I'm not looking at it as a dedicated track machine - though it does seem to spend more time on the track and in the garage than on the street.

Seems like the Glen Sanders bars are popular. They are all hollow, I believe. I'm not hung up on reducing the weight in the t-bars since I haven't stripped the vehicle of A/C or other heavy stuff. (the A/C may be coming out soon though).

The local shop is telling me to go with polygraphite. But they don't have my confidence when it comes to this project (for example, they reccommended I do only the fronts even if I was going to put in a stiffer bar... that seemed like an oversteer nightmare in my mind).

Anyone else running rubber and having good results?

Ed Hughes

Even new rubber will be a big improvement.

I think you've figured out, it is probably time to find a new shop. They probably haven't a clue on what is out there nowadays and have been doing the same stuff for 20+ years. The suggestion to do the front only is the big hint.

whalebird

911 vet: What group are you currently running in? I think it is advisable to have an overall objective for you car. Meaning - what will it be when you are done? How will you know when its Done? I suspect the above mentioned experts will ask you this same question AND help you find the answer. Some people will advise you to do the mods in stages. Don't do it all at once. I think this is good advice as you will understand what each component upgrade has done. In spite of what people say, remeber: LOOSE IS FAST.

911vet

It has been a real struggle finding a shop. The one I took it to is the one nearly everyone in the local PCA uses. But... the recommendation on the t-bars didn't impress me. I'm actually looking at some other cities (long road trip but maybe worth it).

911vet

Last DE was in B. I will probably request to go back to C for a while ... I feel outgunned in B sometimes.

HA! If only I was capable of such a decision! I never intended to turn this cab into a track car. But it is just happening bit by bit. It keeps mutating at random

I'm interested in hearing more. Tell me what you're eluding to here. I've often felt that some flex is an advantage over a car that is "riding on rails." Does it help keep rubber on the pavement? I'm ready to open up a whole can of worms.

Brads911sc

I got a whole package from Chuck and he was very informed and easy to work with...

whalebird

Loose is fast, in general terms refers to the compliance in your set up. As covered in the above posts, it is important to match the shocks and springs. To much spring and the car just bounces, to much shock and you loose compliance, or the suspension moves to slow. My contension is that a conservative setup (t-bars, shocks you already have) can be very effective on the track and still be fun on the street. I like the idea of isolating the suspension with the monoballs/bushings and go conservative on the t-bars. lowering/cronerbalanceing (I think you have already done that once) afterwards with bump-steer tie rod adapters(stay away from the rack bushings) and a solid alignment. Sway bars can help a lot, I like a smart racing front, with a stock "drilled" rear with monoball drop links. A good sway bar balance and conservative spring/shocks will give you good ride "compliance" and adjustability. It sounds like you are having fun and I don't want to cause further confusion, the aformentioned experts are going to be your best bet. I do belive you could reach the limitations of a cab quickly with overly aggresive suspension. I really like Ed Hughs set up. I have followed his threads and belive that, with well developed driving skills, his car would be tuff to out gun in any run group.

whalebird

Not to hijack the thread, but it is also a good idea to, at the next event, watch all the run groups go out and look carefully at the cars that are going fast. A good stopwatch will tell the truth. Ask those guys what they are running. Often, instructors are happy to give rides in their own cars-this is very valuable to see how other experianced drivers are getting around AND feel different setups.

Peter Zimmermann

Shannon: I think your most difficult obstacle here is your "newness" to the game. Your willingness to improve your car is admirable, but do you know that you'll appreciate your changes once they're done. Have you, and can you on any given day, maximize your car in it's current form? Have you found the perfect balance with tire pressures, pyrometer readings, and alignment specs, so that when you go to the track you're almost as quick in your first few laps as you are later in the day? Have you been winning against large groups within your own class?

Please ponder those questions, and then think about spending another year in your stock, fully developed, car - until you and the car become an unbeatable combination. Maybe then your next step can be a more comprehensive one, you quite possibly might not want to take steps with your Cab that you would readily do to a coupe, or possibly buy a coupe that's had a certain level of development work already done to it. I know that used "race" cars come with baggage, but you don't want a race car. I think that what you want is a car that's clean, possibly has a roll hoop, 5/6-point belts, a quality seat, and some costly suspension work with receipts.

I'm not impressed with Craig's List, eBay or other venues, and it seems like PCA members all think their cars are worth twice as much as they really are. But, if you give yourself a year driving your stock car, you've got a great opportunity to buy a really good car in a really bad economy.

I know doubling up on cars is costly, but so is going fast. There are many expenses involved, some expected and some are "Yikes!" category, that's the game. But doing upgrades for the sake of change makes no sense, unless you are absolutely confident that you are ready to go to the next level.

911vet

Pete: I will not presume to brag while in the company of drivers who are far better and more experienced than myself. However, I did come to my first DE ahead of the curve and I've progressed faster than most. I've been told by multiple instructors I should consider upgrades, R-compounds, etc. I believe there are times I'm driving my car to its limits.

I could start over with a Coupe... but, I'd loose a significant amount of money selling my car.

I've been to the track enough times to see cases of driver skill and car capabilities out of balance. I don't want to be one of those people. I wouldn't drive a GT3 if I owned one. I'd rather have a track-ready 914 personally.

Horsepower impresses me about as much as horse manure.

I do not aspire to have the fastest car out there. My goal is to have fun, learn, and to master a skill. It's kung fu on the track. My kung fu is pretty good and I want to add another weapon to my arsenal. And you are right, Master, I'm an overly-eager student...
... perhaps I will be humbled one day

Shannon

Edward

Now that deserve to be the quote of the month! Nice!

And that is the right attitude, IMHO, and in my experience. I spent a long time learning my 993 on street tires before I went to R-comps, and then followed with suspension.

Now that I have my Trackmeister-in-progress, I intentionally found a sound engine/tranny in stock trim (save the SSIs) and will leave it that way, and focused on learning this car. Once I felt pretty comfortable with what each end was doing, I then progressed to suspension, but still on street rubber (too cheap to ditch perfectly good tires ). I can confidently state that the way my SC's suspension is set now is right on as I can initiate understeer, oversteer, or keep her neutral all on driver input. Gotta love that! But the bottom line for me is, as it sounds like for you, is to have good, safe fun at the track; that I progress will be a by-product of the "fun" component.

Pete's advice is good, and Kudos to you for taking it step by step. Though mine is a coupe, if you have any q's feel free to shout out as I have been down this road and have some very clear opinions, myself

Edward

whalebird

I would question any instructor who suggests race rubber at any point in a DE. Street tires are more than enough to get you "educated". Sticky tires can make up for a lot of bad habits. I have found there is a camp of instructors who like to teach technique/line choise and others who push speed. I have to agree with Pete on the horse power thing. I enjoy a momentum car, or chassis car, It makes you fast with a steering wheel, not a gas pedal.