What value for 83 911 SC "Garage Queen"?
03-30-2002, 05:18 PM
#1
Track Day
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What value for 83 911 SC "Garage Queen"?
Still in the market for a 911. I ran across this one locally:
<a href="http://www.aicauto.com/22383sc.html" target="_blank">http://www.aicauto.com/22383sc.html</a>
An 83 SC Coupe with 25K miles. 2 owners all records. Dealer states it is 'new'. His asking price is $26,500. What is the consensus on this price?
Another question. When I asked about standard updates like pop-off valve, chain tensioner, head studs, clutch etc, and inquired about leak-down numbers, I was told not to worry about such trifles..this car is new!
Is my logic wrong here? The chain tensioner can fail anytime right? The head studs are going to corrode regardless of miles right?
Thanks in advance for your input
<a href="http://www.aicauto.com/22383sc.html" target="_blank">http://www.aicauto.com/22383sc.html</a>
An 83 SC Coupe with 25K miles. 2 owners all records. Dealer states it is 'new'. His asking price is $26,500. What is the consensus on this price?
Another question. When I asked about standard updates like pop-off valve, chain tensioner, head studs, clutch etc, and inquired about leak-down numbers, I was told not to worry about such trifles..this car is new!
Is my logic wrong here? The chain tensioner can fail anytime right? The head studs are going to corrode regardless of miles right?
Thanks in advance for your input
03-30-2002, 07:12 PM
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dnr_pa,
What is your intend use of the 911 if you bought it?
Low mileage is like a double edge sword. On the one hand it is like a new car. On the other hand a lot of seals are dried up by now, and no updates were done on the car such as issues you mentioned.
If you are going to drive the car a lot, like more than 7k miles a year, you will be paying for those miles dearly. The car has a high asking price now because of the low mileage. Once you start putting on the miles, that value of the car is gone if you decided to sell it soon after.
You will have to do all of the updates above, maybe not right away, but you will soon. That will cost more money.
Unless the price is right, or you are buying it for concours reason, I would rather look for another one with all records and updates.
Good luck,
Sonny Vo
ps: The above is just my opinion. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
What is your intend use of the 911 if you bought it?
Low mileage is like a double edge sword. On the one hand it is like a new car. On the other hand a lot of seals are dried up by now, and no updates were done on the car such as issues you mentioned.
If you are going to drive the car a lot, like more than 7k miles a year, you will be paying for those miles dearly. The car has a high asking price now because of the low mileage. Once you start putting on the miles, that value of the car is gone if you decided to sell it soon after.
You will have to do all of the updates above, maybe not right away, but you will soon. That will cost more money.
Unless the price is right, or you are buying it for concours reason, I would rather look for another one with all records and updates.
Good luck,
Sonny Vo
ps: The above is just my opinion. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
03-30-2002, 07:34 PM
#3
This car has the infamous rubber centered clutch, definitely not a trifle.
From what I've heard it's not a matter of if but when. Cost to fix about $1300.
I'd bargain hard. I think an excellent condition,low miles SC is worth around 20K.
If its at a Porsche dealer, it might be worth a little more if they give you a warranty to get you thru your "shakedown" period, but not $26K.
If not a P-car shop, then they probaly took it in at wholesale (<$15K) on a trade and are decorating the showroom, A warranty from them is not worth much if they don't have 911 experience.
Good luck.
From what I've heard it's not a matter of if but when. Cost to fix about $1300.
I'd bargain hard. I think an excellent condition,low miles SC is worth around 20K.
If its at a Porsche dealer, it might be worth a little more if they give you a warranty to get you thru your "shakedown" period, but not $26K.
If not a P-car shop, then they probaly took it in at wholesale (<$15K) on a trade and are decorating the showroom, A warranty from them is not worth much if they don't have 911 experience.
Good luck.
03-30-2002, 07:38 PM
#4
Sonny and Gerry are right on the money.
If you want to concours a car, this one would be a good start.
If the car was stored properly, the head studs would probably be alright as well as the chain tensioners. The pop off valve could be done immediately. I had my clutch mechanism fail on my '86 just from being stored too long.
Keep in mind that you could potentially buy a car with ulta low miles for it's age in mint cosmetic condition and not have to spend anything fixing stone chips or worn leather. But you then could be faced with repair bills for age related mechanical problems soon after.
An old car is an old car. They all break.
Good Luck!
Jay
90 964
If you want to concours a car, this one would be a good start.
If the car was stored properly, the head studs would probably be alright as well as the chain tensioners. The pop off valve could be done immediately. I had my clutch mechanism fail on my '86 just from being stored too long.
Keep in mind that you could potentially buy a car with ulta low miles for it's age in mint cosmetic condition and not have to spend anything fixing stone chips or worn leather. But you then could be faced with repair bills for age related mechanical problems soon after.
An old car is an old car. They all break.
Good Luck!
Jay
90 964
03-31-2002, 12:14 AM
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On this car low milage is not a good factor. at $26,000 this guy is out of his mind, that is twice blue book and not worth it, I have an 83SC I have about 26 in it BUT I have ALL the upgrades plus it is lowered and corner balanced, you can get an 83SC for much lower and have it built to your specs for that price !
03-31-2002, 02:50 AM
#6
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dnr_pa,
I agree with some of the replies and disagree with some. Here's my opinion, based on almost 8 years of experience with my '81 911SC Coupe.
I bought my car in May of '94. It had 39,000 miles and was totally original. I bought it from an independent Porsche specialist. I'm the 3rd owner, but the 2nd owner only had the car for a year. My car came with some records, but there was no record of a clutch change. I did the tensioner update and the pop-off valve, but I still don't know whether the car has its original clutch. I suspect it was changed before my ownership because I do hear a little of the "gear rattle" at low revs that the rubber-centered clutch was supposed to prevent, but I'm really just guessing/hoping. I have since brought the mileage to 67,000, and the car has been absolutely trouble-free. It literally looks and feels new, the original paint and interior are still virtually flawless, nothing squeaks or rattles, etc. It regularly wins trophies at local PCA events in the "full" concours class (I've never entered it in a national competition). It is an absolutely wonderful car. I love it so much that I kept it when I bought my '95 993 two years ago.
Having said all that, your dealer is just being a salesman when he tells you not to worry about the updates because the car is "new." The car is NOT new -- it is a 19 year old car that may be in "like-new" condition. If you buy it, you should definitely, in my opinion, do the tensioner update and install the pop-off valve. The clutch is an unknown. Although I said my car has been totally reliable, I did have one scare -- before I installed the pop-off valve. One fine morning I went to the garage and started the car; it backfired just as everyone warned me about.
It scared the #$%* out of me. The car would not restart, and I had visions of an expensive blown-up air box. I was lucky, however; the backfire blew an injector out of the intake manifold (not all the way out, it just loosened it enough to cause a vacuum leak). I simply bought a new injector "cup" for a few bucks at the dealer and reinstalled the injector. And I installed the pop-off valve.
If the car has been stored properly -- not exposed to moisture or high humidity -- I think it is unlikely to have corroded head studs, but certainly not impossible. My car still has its original studs -- so far, so good. You should, however, have a PPI done and make sure the lower cam box covers are removed; a broken stud will fall to the floor. Dried-out seals are possible problems as well.
Regarding the asking price, I think it's high, but not outrageous in my opinion IF the car is truly PERFECT. If the car is truly perfect and has a genuine 25,000 miles, it is worth a LOT more than most SCs, even really nice ones. It's likely that there is room in the asking price, probably at least a few grand. Truly superb, very low-mileage SCs still bring low-20s, from what I've seen recently, so it's not all that far off. By the way, I have no intention of ever selling my car, so whether it's worth $17,000 or $22,000 doesn't matter to me.
Don't listen to the dealer -- get it inspected. If you don't care about the rarity of such a low-mileage car, than it's not worth spending the extra money. If you do care, than it may be well worth it to you.
By the way, where in PA are you, and where is the car? If you don't already know a reputable shop for a PPI, I may be able to recommend someone.
Best of luck -- they're wonderful cars. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I agree with some of the replies and disagree with some. Here's my opinion, based on almost 8 years of experience with my '81 911SC Coupe.
I bought my car in May of '94. It had 39,000 miles and was totally original. I bought it from an independent Porsche specialist. I'm the 3rd owner, but the 2nd owner only had the car for a year. My car came with some records, but there was no record of a clutch change. I did the tensioner update and the pop-off valve, but I still don't know whether the car has its original clutch. I suspect it was changed before my ownership because I do hear a little of the "gear rattle" at low revs that the rubber-centered clutch was supposed to prevent, but I'm really just guessing/hoping. I have since brought the mileage to 67,000, and the car has been absolutely trouble-free. It literally looks and feels new, the original paint and interior are still virtually flawless, nothing squeaks or rattles, etc. It regularly wins trophies at local PCA events in the "full" concours class (I've never entered it in a national competition). It is an absolutely wonderful car. I love it so much that I kept it when I bought my '95 993 two years ago.
Having said all that, your dealer is just being a salesman when he tells you not to worry about the updates because the car is "new." The car is NOT new -- it is a 19 year old car that may be in "like-new" condition. If you buy it, you should definitely, in my opinion, do the tensioner update and install the pop-off valve. The clutch is an unknown. Although I said my car has been totally reliable, I did have one scare -- before I installed the pop-off valve. One fine morning I went to the garage and started the car; it backfired just as everyone warned me about.
It scared the #$%* out of me. The car would not restart, and I had visions of an expensive blown-up air box. I was lucky, however; the backfire blew an injector out of the intake manifold (not all the way out, it just loosened it enough to cause a vacuum leak). I simply bought a new injector "cup" for a few bucks at the dealer and reinstalled the injector. And I installed the pop-off valve.If the car has been stored properly -- not exposed to moisture or high humidity -- I think it is unlikely to have corroded head studs, but certainly not impossible. My car still has its original studs -- so far, so good. You should, however, have a PPI done and make sure the lower cam box covers are removed; a broken stud will fall to the floor. Dried-out seals are possible problems as well.
Regarding the asking price, I think it's high, but not outrageous in my opinion IF the car is truly PERFECT. If the car is truly perfect and has a genuine 25,000 miles, it is worth a LOT more than most SCs, even really nice ones. It's likely that there is room in the asking price, probably at least a few grand. Truly superb, very low-mileage SCs still bring low-20s, from what I've seen recently, so it's not all that far off. By the way, I have no intention of ever selling my car, so whether it's worth $17,000 or $22,000 doesn't matter to me.
Don't listen to the dealer -- get it inspected. If you don't care about the rarity of such a low-mileage car, than it's not worth spending the extra money. If you do care, than it may be well worth it to you.
By the way, where in PA are you, and where is the car? If you don't already know a reputable shop for a PPI, I may be able to recommend someone.
Best of luck -- they're wonderful cars. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
03-31-2002, 06:52 AM
#7
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I think that the price should be in the low 20's, but the dealer is not crazy to ask $26,000. Truly perfect cars are so rare, that you can't really cite book value as any thing more than guidance.
I wouldn't worry about the effects of sitting around too much, unless there are any signs of it being stored poorly. Unfortunately, the car is at a dealer now, so you don't get a chance to see how the prior owner actually cared for it. (e.g., heated garage or just a car port?) I would worry about head studs - I know of a garage queen Carrera 3.2 with a broken stud and less than 20,000 miles and a lifetime of storage in heated, private garages. I also would worry about oil return tubes in a low mileage car and the rubber centered clutch. I wouldn't worry about the pop off valve, personally I think they are a band aid fix for poor maintenance or inadequate diagnosis and repair. And, I feel that the pop off valves eventually cause vacuum leaks that render the airbox useless anyway. I wouldn't bother with the tensioner upgrade. The chain tensioner upgrade is not really necessary in an '83, which has the upgraded tensioner levers (the real source of the famous problem) already from the factory.
I believe that the tough part of your choice is whether to hold out for a Carrera 3.2 in the same condition. If it's a coupe or targa, you'll pay about the same, and you'll have a better car. Also, I feel that the performance of the '80 - '83 US market SCs is good, but not great. Their real virtue, among 911s, is that they are so reliable. A Euro SC of this era, which has great performance, could never be worth the same money, however, because of the gray market stigma.
Tom Frisardi
An SC loyalist, despite the above, but mine's a Euro car
I wouldn't worry about the effects of sitting around too much, unless there are any signs of it being stored poorly. Unfortunately, the car is at a dealer now, so you don't get a chance to see how the prior owner actually cared for it. (e.g., heated garage or just a car port?) I would worry about head studs - I know of a garage queen Carrera 3.2 with a broken stud and less than 20,000 miles and a lifetime of storage in heated, private garages. I also would worry about oil return tubes in a low mileage car and the rubber centered clutch. I wouldn't worry about the pop off valve, personally I think they are a band aid fix for poor maintenance or inadequate diagnosis and repair. And, I feel that the pop off valves eventually cause vacuum leaks that render the airbox useless anyway. I wouldn't bother with the tensioner upgrade. The chain tensioner upgrade is not really necessary in an '83, which has the upgraded tensioner levers (the real source of the famous problem) already from the factory.
I believe that the tough part of your choice is whether to hold out for a Carrera 3.2 in the same condition. If it's a coupe or targa, you'll pay about the same, and you'll have a better car. Also, I feel that the performance of the '80 - '83 US market SCs is good, but not great. Their real virtue, among 911s, is that they are so reliable. A Euro SC of this era, which has great performance, could never be worth the same money, however, because of the gray market stigma.
Tom Frisardi
An SC loyalist, despite the above, but mine's a Euro car
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03-31-2002, 12:36 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Regarding Tom Frisardi's comments:
The broken head stud even with proper storage is scary.
As far as the pop-off valve is concerned, I initialy didn't put one in my car for exactly the reasons he mentioned. I am a maintenance fanatic, and yet that memorable day the thing backfired. It's now seven years after the pop-off installation, and no problems with vacuum leaks or anything else. If it ever does develop a leak, it's easy to fix -- much easier and cheaper than replacing an airbox.
Chain tensioner: My '81 also had the last update before the Carrera tensioners. They're much more reliable than the earlier version, but they still can't compare to the pressure-fed tensioner. When I replaced mine, one showed the early signs of leaking; I have no regrets.
The broken head stud even with proper storage is scary.
As far as the pop-off valve is concerned, I initialy didn't put one in my car for exactly the reasons he mentioned. I am a maintenance fanatic, and yet that memorable day the thing backfired. It's now seven years after the pop-off installation, and no problems with vacuum leaks or anything else. If it ever does develop a leak, it's easy to fix -- much easier and cheaper than replacing an airbox.
Chain tensioner: My '81 also had the last update before the Carrera tensioners. They're much more reliable than the earlier version, but they still can't compare to the pressure-fed tensioner. When I replaced mine, one showed the early signs of leaking; I have no regrets.
03-31-2002, 02:43 PM
#9
It is a handsome car and will be a great car for a concours should the SC ever rise to that level. Keep looking. If this car were commemerative or a first-year Cab. then we'd have something. Otherwise, you will need to update the bits and pieces to bring it to "real-world" specifications.
Jw
Jw
03-31-2002, 04:54 PM
#10
FWIW, Bruce Anderson's most recent "Market Update" (EXCELLENCE - Aug 2001) lists the 1983 SC in 'excellent condition' at $20,550. He also adds an extra premium of up to 10% for a low mileage example, which would bring it up to $22,605. Considering that the asking price for the car you're looking at is $26,000 WITHOUT upgrades, this really sounds like it's on the high side (I'm in PA and have been helping someone find an SC or Carrera). I can't speak to the effectiveness of the newer tensioner levers (it would be interesting to know what % of these upgraded levers failed as compared to the pre-81 upgrade) but the rubber-centered clutch IS a documented problem and if it hasn't already been done, would have to be replaced. Assuming you've looked at a LOT of P's and you're willing to pay the extra $3500 or so, plus upgrade costs, because this car is, by far, THE best one you've seen, then go for it.
04-01-2002, 05:19 PM
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If you have $26k burning a hole in your pocket, you can get a very nice '87 or '88 Carrera, or even a '90 964, though that one would be a steal. Those cars have all the upgrades the SC's needed and the only issue (on Carreras) you'll really need to watch for is premature valve guide wear. A leakdown can spot that for you. $26k for any SC, unless Dr. Ferry Porsche himself owned it, is just unrealistic. I mean no sleight to the SCWDP fanatics.
04-13-2002, 04:34 PM
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Ya know, I actually have the same question. Why does this particular example cost so much? I understand that low miles have a booster affect on the price, but hey, is this even reasonable? Having seen and driven this particular 911sc, I am caught between a rock and a hard place. Although, I have not driven many 911s, this just sends me for a loop. What do you think?
04-13-2002, 06:28 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
I think the 10% premium Bruce Anderson discusses is intended for low mileage for the year, not EXCEPTIONALLY low mileage as in 25K on an '83. Anderson often refers to a rule of thumb of around 7000 per year for a 911. Even if we use only 5000/year, that's 95,000. This is, or could be, one of those exceptional finds that warrants a price well above even the extra 10%, but only to someone who really wants that. How many 25,000 mile SCs are left???
04-13-2002, 08:36 PM
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I just reread your first post and am starting to think you need to run - not walk - away from someone who says "not to worry about such trifles." I have a 3.2 Carrera and am a total novice. But even I know enough about SC's to know those things you asked about are not at all trifles. They are a matter of when - not if. If the salesguy does not know about this, then he has no business even sitting in a Porsche, much less selling one. And if he does know about these trifles, then he's hiding something and you should really drop it. SC's can be a great value. But I'll restate - if you have $26k burning a hole in your pocket, get an '87-'89 Carrera. Good luck.