Petevb

Is anyone else fed up with the marketing guys and bean counters ruining our once great company? I’m getting pretty pissed…

Once upon a time the army of engineers that is Porsche was at war. The enemy was weight, the track and other cars. Battles were fought on the streets and at races: unobtainium, magnesium and aluminum lug nuts were the ammunition; turbos the howitzers. Buying a Porsche street car meant owning a track ready rocket forged with the fire of competition. Once upon a time.

Since then the balance of power has shifted from engineers to bean counters and marketers. The failed attempt to replace the 911 with the 928 didn’t help things, I’m sure, and the companies’ near death experience of the early 90’s due partly to recession sealed the deal. By the late 90s the suits were firmly in control, and will likely be cemented there for good due to the record profits the company has been making the last few years. Porsche is now one of the most profitable car companies of any size in the world. The price, however, has been the company’s soul.

Take your 996 or Boxster to the track today with sticky tires and you risk blowing the motor due to oil starvation (no dry sump). On the street you’ll risk embarrassment from lesser cars costing half as much (STI Imprezas, Lancer Evos, and Vettes (C5 and C6), etc. Throw down big money and step up to a GT3 or turbo and you’re still not safe: Consider that since 1990 the standard 911 has increased in power less than 30%. A Vette, on the other hand, is up well over 60% with the release of the C6, while the Honda Accord is up a full 85%.

There was a time when the engineers were insuring Porsche was the one leading this type of performance war, building cars as fast as technology allowed. The early S, RS, ’78 930 euro and 944 turbo are examples of cars built by engineers, not bean counters. In some cases the transmissions and major components are 2x or more as strong as they need to be, something a bean counter hates but the hardcore enthusiast loves. Today, however, Porsche goes the other way- giving Boxsters a weak gearbox and cast pistons to insure it never competes with the beloved 911. They might get away with it if the 911 truly carried the hardcore enthusiast’s flag, but is that happening? GT2s have less equipment than standard turbos but cost 180K+? GT3s cost 2x a C6 Vette and have a worse power to weight ratio? Nice cars, to be sure, but little more than window dressing given the numbers they sell in due to the price gauging policies. Where is the car the hardcore enthusiast can be proud of in Porsche’s current lineup? While Porsche has been padding profits an old fashioned horsepower war has been on, and instead of leading the charge Porsche is playing catch-up.

Porsche is alienating the hard core enthusiast. With Porsche absent from real racing, and without good value hard-core sports cars, what’s left? Why not go across the street and get an Elise, new NSX, Noble or a Z06 (500 hp for the next one, guys, 600 hp in the forthcoming Blue Devil)? The hardcore guys will leave, and Porsche will be left trading on past reputation. What’s worse, hardcore guys are leading indicators- when they start telling everyone that Porsche’s are not all they are cracked up to be, what effect will that have on sales? With credibility lost time will not be kind. It’s happening already- one only needs to looks at the depreciation of recent Porsches…

All is not yet lost. Porsche needs to re-focus on the hardcore enthusiast and re-invest some of those insane profits. It’s time to go racing again. Time for an across the board power increase of at least 30% so SUVs and mid-priced sedans cease to become a source of embarrassment. Time for affordable completely track ready performance models that can compete on a bang for the buck basis. Perhaps a hard-top Boxster with a GT3 motor for 60k? Before you say that’s unreasonable, that’s pretty much what would be needed to hang with a new Vette or Viper on a $ per second bases at the track, which I don’t think is asking too much. And a 911 with a power to weight ratio of about 6:1 that costs just over 100k. Remember that they would basically be there already if they sold the GT2 based on what it cost them to make rather than what they thought they could get for it, and again that’s what it will take to keep up.

I’ve owned six cars, five of them Porsches, but there is not a new Porsche made at the moment I could justify buying. Either they step up or I’m done, and my next new car will bear an Acura, Lotus or god forbid a Chevy badge. I suspect I won’t be the only one.

Anyone else agree it's time for a wakeup call?

DJF1

I DO!!!!

It is a very big shame... I raced at Putnam with PCA in September and on a practice session I stayed out as my car needed a bit of TLC. We finished the repair toward the end of the session and I went towards the tower to watch the last laps of the practice session. A 962C was running is my group, some RSR's etc. I was in awe watching the 962 and the RSR's hawling down the straight. I got goosebumps and I remember thinking...my God I'm actually running with these guys!!! It was like a dream...
When I was a kid and later as a broke College student, I used to go to any race I could find. Practice, race day I was there. I was always in awe watching the awesome Porsche cars kicking butt. The sound, the speed was mesmerizing. So I was dreaming, dreaming of driving the unobtanium one day. At home everytime there was a race I was there. Porsche was a religion, a cult the epitomy of technology and power. I remember the F1 wins with McLaren, the LeMan's wins in the 80's and 90's. Whenever the Porsche factory would back the car up there was no competition..F1 engines ( exept that V12) , 956's, 962's RSR's all were class winners, dream machines.
So here I was running with these guys...I was running with my very own dream.. here on the same track with a 962!!!! Only to realize that this is a relic of an era... Porsche does not produce a 962 or a Gt1 for that matter anymore... We are just a bunch of guys who are living our dream now that we can afford it...

Still... there is hope... the site of the new RSR on the cover of excellence is a sign that there is hope... maybe the bean counters will re invest some on us, the GT3 is an awesome car by all accounts and another good sign of things to come...
I hope they got the wake up call. I HOPE...

pjc

To put the other point of view -

I'm not quite sure what the discussion point is here - is it that Porsche are no longer producing good, reliable, fast, safe, long lasting road cars, or that they are no longer bidding for racing supremicy at GT and sportscar level?

The reality is that any old group of people can get together and make a fairly decent street car that will do 150 mph + because the technology is there in the open for them to do so - make a chassis, buy and engine and drive train, tweek the engine and clothe it in fibreglass. Heck, there are a fair number of such machines available in the UK and I'm sure in the USA. It is becoming more difficult to produce that giant step. Speed = square of power etc.

The cars under criticism are the latest (brand new design) products - how long did it take them to get the 911 right? I believe the oil surge problem has been resolved, certainly in the 996 and when the 997 arrives I'm sure it will be track worthy. The Boxter continues to win against more modern competion in the handling stakes.

Now for racing. it took 20 years to conquor Le Mans - but again it is easy to forget all the class wins - are Porsche still getting class wins? They are the only independent sports car manufacturer in the world that takes on and win on the track against specialist race cars and the corporate giants in the motor industry, but it all takes money - unfortunately it now takes mega-bucks to compete and the only way that can happen is if they expand the range and make more profit. That is happening and I'm sure Porsche will be back (LeMans Series in USA is favorite).

PJC

GrantG

Petevb - I agree with alot of what you've said, but the Carrera GT does give me hope, even if I can't afford it

asp125

I would agree that the "hard core" enthusiast is being left out. Now put yourself in Porsche's shoes... how many mainstream Porsche buyers nowadays are willing to do without a/c, power windows, CD, leather, and god forbid.. cupholders? Remember, the RSR, 930, and others of that era were uncompromising (and uncomfortable on the street) street legal race cars devoid of most conveniences.

Yes, Porsche may be accused of going "soft in the middle", but luxury accoutrements and *gasp* SUVs allow the company to remain profitable so it can continue to develop their special projects.

Now, if they could produce a Boxter Club Sport that is stripped down and souped up, I'll be in line. No sound insulation, no leather, no soft top, no radio...

Jay H

Unfortunately, most of Porsche's current customers (the ones who actually buy new cars) WANT cupholders, quiet motors, softer rides, etc.

Cases in point:

I have a co-worker who just might upgrade from his '02 M3 to a new 996. He wouldn't dream of dealing with harsh rides, loud motors, etc. All the stuff we like, they hate. He feels a 993 would be a bit harsh for everyday. The 993 is SO much more quiet and refined than anything built prior.

A very close friend is thinking about buying a Boxster for his wife. He had 944's in the past. No way would he put up with a harsh race car ride or intruding noise from a motor. He wants quiet, style and an automatic transmission. Pounding rear suspension? Noisy motor that would interfere with their cell phone conversations?? NO WAY. I'm not kidding either.

True enthusiats buy very few cars. Why should Porsche only build cars for the very few enthusiats that actually have the money to buy a new car?? As a "bean counter" myself, I can understand Porsche management's reason for staying out of high level racing and for making cars that will appeal to a wider audience. Business conditions are much, much different from the conditions that were around when Porsche was dominant in high level racing. If Porsche made cars the way they used to in the past, they would never survive.

Jay
90 964

Dr.Chris

I just made a trip down to my local P-dealer in Naples Fl. to pick up an electrical relay for my 88 T-L cab and while I was already there, decided to stroll the new line of 996's. There were plain,4S coupes and turbos all in a line ranging from $80-136K. All looked like nondescript "bubble" cars all in a row. How depressing,I wouldn't trade 2 of mine for any one of the new line up!

86NOH2O

I agree Porsche is playing the money game. I'd also like to see more in the racing arena yet they do routinely win their class. I've never understood the comparison to Vette's and Vipers. Big hp V-8's are everywhere. The beauty of Porsche to me is the flat six. I have not seen any real challenge to Porsche in it's ALMS class, maybe Ferrari next year. I do know Ferrari made the Corvette it's bitch by the end of last season in their ALMS class.

I guess if Subaru's, Honda's, etc float your boat you just saved alot of money. I don't feel there is any comparison at all between the low priced rocket imports and the new expensive Porsches, or old for that matter. The Porsche is a beautiful piece of machinery that is exotic, reliable, expensive, and just plain different than the mass produced autos available at low cost. (The Boxster might have to be an exception here as is it mass produced and low cost, at least for Porsches).

Let's hope they get more serious about real racing and defend the badge they stick on all the cars.

If some guy can blow past me doing 0-60 in 4 seconds in his Lancer I still would not trade him for my car.....but I'd bet he would quickly trade for mine!

MRFLATSIX

I think we all would like for Porsche to build something cheap and genuine again, but the plain fact is they can't. I paid $3450 out the door for a brand new '58 Speedster. A coupe was about $4200 and a super coupe was about $4600. I think they made about 10,000 cars a year then. Those were simple times too with no EPA or NHSTA around to make rules. I made about $2.40 an hour then and Porsches cost about what a new Buick would. If it were not for the outside engineering business the company would be either dead or owned by somebody else. Think about it, every other major specialty car company is owned by a conglamorate. Ferrari. Aston Martin, Jaguar etc. Things really changed when the 917 came along and Porsche discovered they could beat Ferrari. Porsche is now the winingest car company ever at LeMans. The record will never be broken. Even today, half the field is made up of Porsches in that race.If only we had a new prototype to root for. Norbert Singer is retiring this year and as far as I know he isn't working on anything.
So, what will happen? Will they return to racing? They keep saying yes, but they keep moving the date up. One thing is for sure, a small company can't stay in business making cheap sports cars in low volume.They have to make expensive cars in order to make a profit. I think the customer base has changed and people paying high prices want creature comforts. I'll have to admit, after 10 years even I got tired of having the rain drip off my elbow from leaking side curtains in my Speedster.I still like the whine of the fan in my 911 though.

TaylorSea4

This is an interesting thread, and Pete, I agree with you to SOME degree. The whole Cayenne thing STILL makes me shake my head and wonder. Hell, I can appreciate Porsche wanting to get into the off-road market, but don't build some friggin suburbia elite-mobile. Build a friggin tank (think Toyota FJ series) worthy of the marque and one that pushes or resets the standard. Instead, they settle and build something the SUV set can resolve their "mine-is-more-DEE-lux-than-YOURS" pissing contests with (which is, sadly what has become of the sport-ute).

But then I sit there and scratch my head as you question a GT3's moxy. Numbers and stats aside, races are won on the TRACK. The latest issue of Car & Driver had the GT3 v. Ford GT v. 360 Challenge shootout, and the GT3 flat *** spanked the 360 on the road corse. The Ford had the fastest time due to it's huge trap speed advantage, but the bang-buck$ ratio was clearly skewed towards the scrappy little, "underpowered" GT3. It dueced the 360 in every acceleration test as well. And dude, make NO bones about it; a GT3 sports some VERY serious hardware underneath that skin.

Porsche not racing? Maybe there won't be anymore Martini/ factory 935-esque cars again, but did you see last year's Daytona (isn't that "real racing?")? The 911's kept going and going and going all the way to victory lane. Yes, they're modded race cars, but not nearly as one-off as the C5R's.

Yeah, the WRX's are WAY cool, more fun to drive than a barrell of monkeys (did a long wet-weather test drive in a girlfriend's), and priced cheap enough to embarrass even the vaunted Corvette. Seriously fun rip-snort motor, too. Alas, I'd feel a LOT more confident on the track in a Boxster if trophies were at stake.

Of COURSE the factory won't give the Boxster more ***** than the flagship. Aside from the afformentioned 928 power- move, when has Porsche (or ANYONE for that matter) allowed their flagship to be outclassed/ performed by the lower model? Yeah, the Camaro/ Firebird/ Corvette power struggle in '68- '72 range was entertaining (not to mention the horsepower wars with Buick, Poncho's & Olds) , but in the end, it was good for the parent company and the flagship ultimately rose above. The 911 was sliding in later years (late 70's, right??) due to power problems with the smog-legal motors. Read the Road & Track interview with the former 911 Program Managers/ Grand Poo-bahs (latest issue).

I thought the GT2 was a platform for a prodution race car? That goddamn thing is scary-fast, but maybe I'm under the wrong impression. You say they've got TOO much amnemities and yet blast the more spartan models, man. What's your point? Jay's right. NO auto maker can operate the way they used to in this day and age, and for that matter, the sport itself has evolved into a money-driven bizz. You'll NEVER again see the top F1 guys globetrotting and hopping into anything fast just for the sake of racing. Gurney did it. So did AJ and a host of a buncha European guys who's names I can't recall.

Then again, Pete, you make sense to the working stiff in me (and probably ALL of us regardless of income). There's NO 996 Turbo or even a C4S in my immediate, and probably long-term future. There IS no more pure driver's cheap Porsche like the 944. Sure, it wasn't dirt-cheap then, but it was a Corvette budgeted buyer's way to enjoy the spirit of Porsche. The fit, the finish, the engineering.

I'd wet myself if Porsche brought out a 350Z priced 944 model for the new millineum. Hell, they've already got kickass 4-cylinder motors from Audi. How hard would it be? 2800 lbs. MAX, a nice revvy 4 cylinder (180hp), a sharp retro styling (yes, Frankestein the old 944 flares into the new design!), priced $25+ base. How COULD that miss?? It might be a mechanical clone to the Audi's, but it'd be a LOT more worthy of the crest than the friggin DEE-luxo-truck. A stripper/ beefy braking/ sporty suspension Boxster-Speedster Club Sport would OWN DE's if they made one. Ponder THAT for a second. EESH!

So, along THAT arguement, you're on the money, Pete. I just don't think 'downward spiral' is quite fair. But that's just me, it's only my opinion. I could be wrong. REALLY great topic, though man. Got us all thinking, eh?

msobota

I too am encouraged by the Carrera GT. Porsche corporate seems to have a plan to put the R&D cost for this super cruiser on the backs of the lucky 1500 who get to pay $450k for the car. If this works for them, they are sure to try it again in the future - only time will tell - Right now, I hear that some of those Carrera GT's are available. No surprise at that price. I'm sureprised they are even insurable. I would like to see this same technology with twin turbos and 1000 hp (after some modifications) all for around $200k 5 years from now.

My 993tt could use some more cubes (3.8 is available as a modification but beyond that, it really needs more cylinders). The 10 cyl engine in the Carrera GT adds a couple of cylinders and puts the engine in the middle of the car. This seems like a logical path for the R&D department to take. So does ceramic brakes, clutch and CFP everywhere.

I personally don't particularly like the look of the 996's as they have lost some of the style. I think the Carrera GT is very cool - very stylish - I love the low cg and twin clutch - no flywheel. The technology is insane.

If I owned Porsche - I would feel more safe in the business climate building for the masses while enjoying my passion on the side. By "on the side" I mean continuing to build some cars for the enthusiast while making the masses and the bottom line (strength) happy too.

Mike Sobota

Jay H

Mr. Flat Six: I enjoyed what you wrote. Good stuff there.

More thoughts:

Keep in mind that those low priced sports cars have very little margin in them. Since Porsche does not produce high volumes of cars, these low margin cars are not very appealing. They would have to sell a ton of them to make any money. And, they know they can't sell a ton of them due to production limitations, limited dealers, etc. Chevy can sell a billion Cavaliers at very low money because they can spread out the R&D over hundreds of thousands of units. And, they have a billion dealers all over the place to sell these cars at. Porsche is no where near that level...

I've read that the current 996 has a 45% margin. That's HUGE!! You don't need to sell too many units to make big profits. The Cayenne also has big margins. Hence their reasoning to go into the high end (not low end) SUV market. BIG margins on relatively few sales (as compared to a Chevy or Ford). The SUV market is really the only place to be highly profitable due to those margins.

In the '80's when our beloved 3.2's were being made, Porsche spent tons of money on expensive re-work before the 911's even left the factory because they could not get it right on the factory floor. I've read that 50% of the cars built needed some sort of rework (rework is VERY expensive in manufacturing as compared to getting it right the first time on the line) by the end of the assembly line. Those damn "bean counters" (again, which I am one of) and "suits" helped revamp the production process to keep quality up and introduce healthy margins back into the vehicles Porsche was producing. Without those changes, Porsche would have sank quickly.

Also, Pete, before you condemn bean counters, keep in mind that I can show you quite a few bean counters that are true car enthusiats and might know a bit more than the average Joe on cars. No flame intended.

I would love to have Porsche build cars again like a 3.2 Carrera or a 964 or a '73 911 RS. But, in today's world, that would never be possible. We have to get used to it. It's all about making money. A business MUST be profitable in order to survive. The days of making cars just for making cars are long over.

The Carrera GT is definitely a step in the right direction. They could have scrapped that '99 Le Mans idea and just concentrated on the Ceyanne. Instead, we have a supercar that you can go to Wal-Mart in to pick up diapers and then head to the race trace and kick everyone's ***.

Jay
90 964

Hmmm.... My 911th post...

classic911

It is sad to see our great company in its present state, and since it is making some big profits, I don't foresee a change in ideology anytime soon.

Sadly, the Cayenne is all the proof I needed to see that Porsche has lost its way. Now there's talk of a 4 door sedan? I used to think that every other German car company was envious of Porsche, but sadly I think the opposite is now true.

Growing up Porsches and Ferraris were my dream cars, and I am sure most of us on the board feel this way. We remember reading the 930 turbo tests in awe, etc. Car & Driver calling the 944 the best handling car in the world. At the time there were few, if any, competitors. Now there is the Corvette, which has the best performance to $$ ratio around, the M3, NSX, etc. It seems to me that the Corvette engineers are working harder on their baby (new C6) than the Porsche engineers are working on theirs (Cayenne?). If Toyota were smart they would introduce a nice Lexus sportscar and tie it into their racing efforts, especially if their F1 effort bears fruit. Meanwhile Porsche is on the sidelines. Ouch!!!!!!!!!

The current crop of production models at Porsche doesn't interest me-I'll never own a Carrera GT (unless I win Powerball), the current Boxster/996 does nothing for me, and the Cayenne isn't as good as an Infiniti FX45.

I agree that Porsche needs to do a low content car-a Boxster with no power windows/door locks/mirrors/top, cloth interior, optional A/C and ditch all the electrical BS driver aids. Save $$$, lose weight and race the damn thing. Isn't it supposed to be the spiritual successor to the 550 Spyder, a car that helped establish Porsche in this country? Hell, I'd mass produce the Cayenne V-8 and stick in the Boxster but I digress.......

My fear is that future generations won't lust after P-cars the way we do.

Back in the reality of the real world, I'd be quite happy with a clean 89 Turbo............

JackOlsen

The Cayenne was a terrible decision for a sports car company. The 996 is butt ugly. Leaving racing stripped the company of a great deal of legitimacy. The current regime's devotion to best-in-the-industry profit margins, independence at all costs, and broadening the product line is short-sighted and not much of an engineering-driven decision.

I agree with all of that.

But let's not look at the past through glasses that are too rose-colored. My 1972 911 endured most of the same criticisms when it came out that we enthusiasts dish out on the 996. It was heavy, relative to other cars of its era. It came with air conditioning, power windows, a heavy sunroof, loads of heavy sound deadening. It was marketed as an exotic luxury car to the wealthy. At the time, no one thought its virtues were its light weight and singleness of purpose. It was a heavy, luxury-laden touring car -- and that was the year when the engineers were allegedly running the show in Stuttgart.

I love my early 911, and don't feel the least bit tempted by Porsche's current offerings (or really much of anything the company has made since 1973). But I don't think it helps matters to color the early years of Porsche too romantically. The company has always made its money selling cars to rich poseurs more than it has to true enthusiasts.

Jay H

I'm also curious:

Is anyone here that is complaining about Porsche ABLE and WILLING to buy a new sports car or luxury SUV in the $60,000 to $100,000 range?

I'm not, nor will I ever be able to. Porsche couldn't give a rats *ss to what I think either. Nor should they care.

Jack is also correct in that in each successive release of a "new, improved 911", it was met by great distaste by so called "enthusiasts". Even the 1978 911SC was called a huge change by Porsche as they tried to make the 911 more appealing with more creature comforts and easier driveability. We all agree that the SC is a great, raw 911.

When the 911 came out in '64, the 356 guys stated that this was the end of Porsche. Could they have been any more incorrect?