Trying to decide between 718 Cayman GTS and 992
07-04-2018, 06:58 PM
#18
Intermediate
But I prefer "go big or go home" - so I say get the GTS and drive its wheels off. YOLO, Carpe Diem and all that.
I only considered the GTS, in terms of Cayman trim levels. It's faster than the last gen GT4, and I hope to enjoy that first hand at an open lapping day soon.
07-04-2018, 08:32 PM
#19
Track Day
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No problem, if you are getting ventilated leather seats then definitely look for another car. The Alcantara seats are GTS model exclusive. I wish I could have talked Porsche into ventilated Alcantara seats for my car but they were not interested. Let us know what car you finally decide to purchase.
07-05-2018, 09:03 AM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Hi all, I'm a new prospective Porsche owner and was hoping to get some advice. I recently bought a new F80 M3 (fully loaded) as my daily driver kid-hauling sedan. I actually love the F80 but have already starting looking for a weekend fun car that I'd like to stick with for at least 5 years if not longer. After much internal debate and feedback from friends, I've eliminated a TT RS, F-Type R and Lotus Evora 400 from consideration and narrowed it down to either (1) order a 718 Cayman GTS or (2) wait to order the new 992 C4S.
I'm planning to test drive the GTS later this week (which will be my first time driving a Porsche) and I should probably also drive a 991.2 C4S for comparison purposes. My hesitations on pulling the trigger now on the GTS are (1) will I notice much performance difference over the F80 and, if not, would it even matter given the GTS' other redeeming qualities, (2) will I want to "upgrade" to a 992 in a couple of years so it's not worth buying a GTS now and suffering the depreciation hit plus additional expenses (e.g., full PPF which I always do, etc.), (3) I really want sapphire blue which I understand has been discontinued as a standard color and I'm not interested in paying $11k for a custom color so could waiting be beneficial until Porsche introduces a new blue.
Any thoughts on my "dilemma" would be much appreciated.
I'm planning to test drive the GTS later this week (which will be my first time driving a Porsche) and I should probably also drive a 991.2 C4S for comparison purposes. My hesitations on pulling the trigger now on the GTS are (1) will I notice much performance difference over the F80 and, if not, would it even matter given the GTS' other redeeming qualities, (2) will I want to "upgrade" to a 992 in a couple of years so it's not worth buying a GTS now and suffering the depreciation hit plus additional expenses (e.g., full PPF which I always do, etc.), (3) I really want sapphire blue which I understand has been discontinued as a standard color and I'm not interested in paying $11k for a custom color so could waiting be beneficial until Porsche introduces a new blue.
Any thoughts on my "dilemma" would be much appreciated.
You should probably get the Cayman, or even more dramatically, consider a Boxster. You have a fantastic car already; what you're probably looking for and would be money best spent is in getting a radically different experience. A 911, at its core and especially only driven on the street so you're nowhere near approaching its limits, is actually a pretty similar experience to your F80. One could argue it does everything the F80 does a little bit better except for the back seats. My point is, that unless you get it out on the track, there is a lot of redundancy in the two cars that I couldn't see justifying the expense if all you're going to do is use it as a "weekend fun car". The M3 itself can definitely be considered a weekend fun car, and give you about 90+% of the grin-inducing charm the 911 would.
The Cayman on the other hand, is an entirely different experience. It's smaller, lighter, more agile- and the 718 GTS will very likely even feel faster (might actually be a hair faster) than the F80. Power really should be irrelevant though; if you want more power you could easily tune your M3 to over 500 reliable whp with a couple bolt ons and a tune, and never use it on the street without going to jail. I don't think that's what you really want, is it?
What I imagine you're actually looking for, is that you wake up on a crisp, late September morning and want to go for a drive. You walk into your garage and look at the two cars you have sitting there, and you won't have to hesitate to choose one over the other. The Cayman is that car, no question.
The reason I threw the Boxster in there is because I was in your position a few months ago... except I was replacing my F82, not augmenting it; should be even more cut and dry for you because you're not giving up anything! Anyway, I wanted a completely different experience, and the drop top gives me that as well. I never thought I was a "convertible guy" until I got a 718 Boxster as a loaner on a perfect day, and absolutely loved it. I'd encourage you to at least consider it, and if you haven't driven a Boxster take one for a test drive.
Also know that Porsche has absolutely perfected the options game. I've noticed a trend and experienced it myself, where certain options seem like they're just absolutely mandatory; what this will probably leave you with is 1 of 2 options if you're going to get your "perfect car"; be prepared to fly out/ship a car sight unseen from anywhere across the country, or order one new. A 3rd option is to compromise on the exact options package you want; I sort of did that- I thought I needed PTV and a backup camera... but ultimately I don't miss them and couldn't be happier with my car. That said, I also don't openly concede that I have OCD so there's that.
Good luck, I'm pretty sure you'll end up happy regardless. It's really tough not to with a Porsche.
07-05-2018, 11:46 PM
#23
Track Day
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I traded my F82 in on a 981 GTS, and have some thoughts.
You should probably get the Cayman, or even more dramatically, consider a Boxster. You have a fantastic car already; what you're probably looking for and would be money best spent is in getting a radically different experience. A 911, at its core and especially only driven on the street so you're nowhere near approaching its limits, is actually a pretty similar experience to your F80. One could argue it does everything the F80 does a little bit better except for the back seats. My point is, that unless you get it out on the track, there is a lot of redundancy in the two cars that I couldn't see justifying the expense if all you're going to do is use it as a "weekend fun car". The M3 itself can definitely be considered a weekend fun car, and give you about 90+% of the grin-inducing charm the 911 would.
The Cayman on the other hand, is an entirely different experience. It's smaller, lighter, more agile- and the 718 GTS will very likely even feel faster (might actually be a hair faster) than the F80. Power really should be irrelevant though; if you want more power you could easily tune your M3 to over 500 reliable whp with a couple bolt ons and a tune, and never use it on the street without going to jail. I don't think that's what you really want, is it?
What I imagine you're actually looking for, is that you wake up on a crisp, late September morning and want to go for a drive. You walk into your garage and look at the two cars you have sitting there, and you won't have to hesitate to choose one over the other. The Cayman is that car, no question.
The reason I threw the Boxster in there is because I was in your position a few months ago... except I was replacing my F82, not augmenting it; should be even more cut and dry for you because you're not giving up anything! Anyway, I wanted a completely different experience, and the drop top gives me that as well. I never thought I was a "convertible guy" until I got a 718 Boxster as a loaner on a perfect day, and absolutely loved it. I'd encourage you to at least consider it, and if you haven't driven a Boxster take one for a test drive.
Also know that Porsche has absolutely perfected the options game. I've noticed a trend and experienced it myself, where certain options seem like they're just absolutely mandatory; what this will probably leave you with is 1 of 2 options if you're going to get your "perfect car"; be prepared to fly out/ship a car sight unseen from anywhere across the country, or order one new. A 3rd option is to compromise on the exact options package you want; I sort of did that- I thought I needed PTV and a backup camera... but ultimately I don't miss them and couldn't be happier with my car. That said, I also don't openly concede that I have OCD so there's that.
Good luck, I'm pretty sure you'll end up happy regardless. It's really tough not to with a Porsche.
You should probably get the Cayman, or even more dramatically, consider a Boxster. You have a fantastic car already; what you're probably looking for and would be money best spent is in getting a radically different experience. A 911, at its core and especially only driven on the street so you're nowhere near approaching its limits, is actually a pretty similar experience to your F80. One could argue it does everything the F80 does a little bit better except for the back seats. My point is, that unless you get it out on the track, there is a lot of redundancy in the two cars that I couldn't see justifying the expense if all you're going to do is use it as a "weekend fun car". The M3 itself can definitely be considered a weekend fun car, and give you about 90+% of the grin-inducing charm the 911 would.
The Cayman on the other hand, is an entirely different experience. It's smaller, lighter, more agile- and the 718 GTS will very likely even feel faster (might actually be a hair faster) than the F80. Power really should be irrelevant though; if you want more power you could easily tune your M3 to over 500 reliable whp with a couple bolt ons and a tune, and never use it on the street without going to jail. I don't think that's what you really want, is it?
What I imagine you're actually looking for, is that you wake up on a crisp, late September morning and want to go for a drive. You walk into your garage and look at the two cars you have sitting there, and you won't have to hesitate to choose one over the other. The Cayman is that car, no question.
The reason I threw the Boxster in there is because I was in your position a few months ago... except I was replacing my F82, not augmenting it; should be even more cut and dry for you because you're not giving up anything! Anyway, I wanted a completely different experience, and the drop top gives me that as well. I never thought I was a "convertible guy" until I got a 718 Boxster as a loaner on a perfect day, and absolutely loved it. I'd encourage you to at least consider it, and if you haven't driven a Boxster take one for a test drive.
Also know that Porsche has absolutely perfected the options game. I've noticed a trend and experienced it myself, where certain options seem like they're just absolutely mandatory; what this will probably leave you with is 1 of 2 options if you're going to get your "perfect car"; be prepared to fly out/ship a car sight unseen from anywhere across the country, or order one new. A 3rd option is to compromise on the exact options package you want; I sort of did that- I thought I needed PTV and a backup camera... but ultimately I don't miss them and couldn't be happier with my car. That said, I also don't openly concede that I have OCD so there's that.
Good luck, I'm pretty sure you'll end up happy regardless. It's really tough not to with a Porsche.
07-06-2018, 09:31 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Many thanks for your thoughtful advice, I couldn't agree more with your comparison of the F80 and 911, but I'm just not ready for a convertible...lol. Based on all of the feedback and my test drive, I'm definitely going to be looking for a 2019 allocation for a Cayman GTS, my 911 aspirations can wait until the kids are out of the house. Thanks again!
That said (lol), also keep in mind you're on the Cayman/Boxster forum. Most guys in here probably faced a similar situation, and when they came up on that fork in the road went down the Cayman/Boxster route. That's great if you're looking for confirmation bias, but as for your overall decision-making process it might not hurt to pop over to the 911 forum and get their take there as well.
07-06-2018, 10:21 AM
#25
Banned
I traded my F82 in on a 981 GTS, and have some thoughts.
You should probably get the Cayman, or even more dramatically, consider a Boxster. You have a fantastic car already; what you're probably looking for and would be money best spent is in getting a radically different experience. A 911, at its core and especially only driven on the street so you're nowhere near approaching its limits, is actually a pretty similar experience to your F80. One could argue it does everything the F80 does a little bit better except for the back seats. My point is, that unless you get it out on the track, there is a lot of redundancy in the two cars that I couldn't see justifying the expense if all you're going to do is use it as a "weekend fun car". The M3 itself can definitely be considered a weekend fun car, and give you about 90+% of the grin-inducing charm the 911 would.
The Cayman on the other hand, is an entirely different experience. It's smaller, lighter, more agile- and the 718 GTS will very likely even feel faster (might actually be a hair faster) than the F80. Power really should be irrelevant though; if you want more power you could easily tune your M3 to over 500 reliable whp with a couple bolt ons and a tune, and never use it on the street without going to jail. I don't think that's what you really want, is it?
What I imagine you're actually looking for, is that you wake up on a crisp, late September morning and want to go for a drive. You walk into your garage and look at the two cars you have sitting there, and you won't have to hesitate to choose one over the other. The Cayman is that car, no question.
The reason I threw the Boxster in there is because I was in your position a few months ago... except I was replacing my F82, not augmenting it; should be even more cut and dry for you because you're not giving up anything! Anyway, I wanted a completely different experience, and the drop top gives me that as well. I never thought I was a "convertible guy" until I got a 718 Boxster as a loaner on a perfect day, and absolutely loved it. I'd encourage you to at least consider it, and if you haven't driven a Boxster take one for a test drive.
Also know that Porsche has absolutely perfected the options game. I've noticed a trend and experienced it myself, where certain options seem like they're just absolutely mandatory; what this will probably leave you with is 1 of 2 options if you're going to get your "perfect car"; be prepared to fly out/ship a car sight unseen from anywhere across the country, or order one new. A 3rd option is to compromise on the exact options package you want; I sort of did that- I thought I needed PTV and a backup camera... but ultimately I don't miss them and couldn't be happier with my car. That said, I also don't openly concede that I have OCD so there's that.
Good luck, I'm pretty sure you'll end up happy regardless. It's really tough not to with a Porsche.
You should probably get the Cayman, or even more dramatically, consider a Boxster. You have a fantastic car already; what you're probably looking for and would be money best spent is in getting a radically different experience. A 911, at its core and especially only driven on the street so you're nowhere near approaching its limits, is actually a pretty similar experience to your F80. One could argue it does everything the F80 does a little bit better except for the back seats. My point is, that unless you get it out on the track, there is a lot of redundancy in the two cars that I couldn't see justifying the expense if all you're going to do is use it as a "weekend fun car". The M3 itself can definitely be considered a weekend fun car, and give you about 90+% of the grin-inducing charm the 911 would.
The Cayman on the other hand, is an entirely different experience. It's smaller, lighter, more agile- and the 718 GTS will very likely even feel faster (might actually be a hair faster) than the F80. Power really should be irrelevant though; if you want more power you could easily tune your M3 to over 500 reliable whp with a couple bolt ons and a tune, and never use it on the street without going to jail. I don't think that's what you really want, is it?
What I imagine you're actually looking for, is that you wake up on a crisp, late September morning and want to go for a drive. You walk into your garage and look at the two cars you have sitting there, and you won't have to hesitate to choose one over the other. The Cayman is that car, no question.
The reason I threw the Boxster in there is because I was in your position a few months ago... except I was replacing my F82, not augmenting it; should be even more cut and dry for you because you're not giving up anything! Anyway, I wanted a completely different experience, and the drop top gives me that as well. I never thought I was a "convertible guy" until I got a 718 Boxster as a loaner on a perfect day, and absolutely loved it. I'd encourage you to at least consider it, and if you haven't driven a Boxster take one for a test drive.
Also know that Porsche has absolutely perfected the options game. I've noticed a trend and experienced it myself, where certain options seem like they're just absolutely mandatory; what this will probably leave you with is 1 of 2 options if you're going to get your "perfect car"; be prepared to fly out/ship a car sight unseen from anywhere across the country, or order one new. A 3rd option is to compromise on the exact options package you want; I sort of did that- I thought I needed PTV and a backup camera... but ultimately I don't miss them and couldn't be happier with my car. That said, I also don't openly concede that I have OCD so there's that.
Good luck, I'm pretty sure you'll end up happy regardless. It's really tough not to with a Porsche.
OP - I think you should check out the 718 - I love my 718 GTS but my 991.2S also is a car that is just so good at everything is does and in my personal opinion is a car that I found to be stark contrast to the M4 I had before in how it goes about in every way.
07-07-2018, 10:37 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
I think you’ve provided some rather sound advice here. Having owned the current F8x M cars I don’t think I’d say they are similar at all. The 911 is a much more scalpel-like precision instrument with poise and balance no M car possesses...or likely will. The 911 has much higher limits but I think it’s also a car that is fun to drive and enjoy at any speed whereas the M3/4 just aren’t great in any singular or total package way. The 911 provides a true dichotomy of GT cruiser and track weapon that M division still has yet to truly even fathom in my eyes.
OP - I think you should check out the 718 - I love my 718 GTS but my 991.2S also is a car that is just so good at everything is does and in my personal opinion is a car that I found to be stark contrast to the M4 I had before in how it goes about in every way.
Yet... you still chose to buy a 718 GTS. I think that speaks volumes here. I'm sure OP would love to trade his M3 in on a 991.2 AND buy a 718, but that hasn't been listed as an option. The 911's back seats are semi-functional, the M3's are voluminous in comparison (even the M4 for that matter...) and even have their own doors to go with it. That and/or the aforementioned cost difference, or a multitude of other reasons. Similarly, I don't think I'll be able to convince my wife to trade in her Macan for a 911.
So the question I'd ask you is, if you had an M3 already, which one of your current cars would you choose to keep, the 991 or the 718? I still think the 911 will have overlapping characteristics that the 718 will not, but it's not like there's a "wrong" decision here.
07-08-2018, 01:03 AM
#27
Banned
Yes, the 911 does everything the M4 does but better; as you say, much better- and I'd agree. I think the market would as well because a well-sorted 911 will cost about double or more what an equivalent F8x would, new or used.
Yet... you still chose to buy a 718 GTS. I think that speaks volumes here. I'm sure OP would love to trade his M3 in on a 991.2 AND buy a 718, but that hasn't been listed as an option. The 911's back seats are semi-functional, the M3's are voluminous in comparison (even the M4 for that matter...) and even have their own doors to go with it. That and/or the aforementioned cost difference, or a multitude of other reasons. Similarly, I don't think I'll be able to convince my wife to trade in her Macan for a 911.
So the question I'd ask you is, if you had an M3 already, which one of your current cars would you choose to keep, the 991 or the 718? I still think the 911 will have overlapping characteristics that the 718 will not, but it's not like there's a "wrong" decision here.
Yet... you still chose to buy a 718 GTS. I think that speaks volumes here. I'm sure OP would love to trade his M3 in on a 991.2 AND buy a 718, but that hasn't been listed as an option. The 911's back seats are semi-functional, the M3's are voluminous in comparison (even the M4 for that matter...) and even have their own doors to go with it. That and/or the aforementioned cost difference, or a multitude of other reasons. Similarly, I don't think I'll be able to convince my wife to trade in her Macan for a 911.
So the question I'd ask you is, if you had an M3 already, which one of your current cars would you choose to keep, the 991 or the 718? I still think the 911 will have overlapping characteristics that the 718 will not, but it's not like there's a "wrong" decision here.
I used to be a rather avid fan of the M division, but I don’t see anything in the current line up to be interesting. I even see M4 GTS’ in the low to mid 80s with only a few hundred miles on them - not interested. I just don’t think they make the caliber of car Porsche does.
As far as the Cayman and Boxster, they are absolutely wonderful cars. I don’t have a bad thing to say about them. If I had to choose, I would vacillate over that one quite a bit. I can certainly see the symmetry as well as the dichotomy of each. You can easily bifurcate certain characteristics easily, while others you cannot. I do get the practicality side as that is something so unique about the 911 - the ability to not only be the precision instrument it is but also do seating and storage (to a degree) in a pinch.
To add, the 911 is both a better luxury GT cruiser and a better B road or track car than anything an M could muster up. While it may be 991.2 base fast (when it can apply power) it just is not memorable in any way.
Last edited by mr gregash; 07-08-2018 at 03:55 PM.
07-08-2018, 03:50 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
I owned both an M3 and M4. As you infer, I don’t have fond feelings for either. The best word I’d describe them by would be sloppy. Sure, lots of power but generally not good at putting it down nor connecting to how the car drives. To close the loop, wrt price, the M3/4 CS are about as expensive as a .2S yet are rubbish in comparison. The M4 GTS at 135k was a laughing stock that despite cup tires, full coil over suspension, lots of aero and downforce, 80hp and 100tq advantage over a .2S, it got completely housed by one in every straight line and track contest. And that car was meant to compete with a GT3? Not even close.
I used to be a rather avid fan of the M division, but I don’t see anything in the current line up to be interesting. I even see M4 GTS’ in the low to mid 80s with only a few hundred miles on them - not interested. I just don’t think they make the caliber of car Porsche does.
As far as the Cayman and Boxster, they are absolutely wonderful cars. I don’t have a bad thing to say about them. If I had to choose, I would vacillate over that one quite a bit. I can certainly see the symmetry as well as the dichotomy of each. You can easily bifurcate certain characteristics easily, while others you cannot. I do get the practicality side as that is something so unique about the 911 - the ability to not only be the precision instrument it is but also do searing and storage (to a degree) in a pinch.
I loved the Cayman. I haven’t driven the 718. The experience is very different from a 911. Suprisingly so (for me anyway). Fantastic sports cars. In fact; driving a 981S Cayman with a stick and Sport Chrono, hard - was the experience that got me hooked on Porsche. And realized that BMWs aren’t Sport cars. Full disclosure: I daily drive a 991 GTS.
Good luck with your decision. The most expensive way to make it, is to drive both cars at the PEC in LA or Atlanta. Probably one of the best ways to test drive a car. And a lot of fun
07-09-2018, 12:44 PM
#29
Track Day
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Appreciate all the very helpful feedback. FWIW, I think I've decided to roll with the F80 as the practical car and go with the 718 GTS (see likely build below) as the fun car. My OCD would never allow a 911 to serve as the practical car with kids constantly climbing into the back and scuffing door sills, etc. Moreover, my 12 yo is already 5'8", not exactly a comfortable ride. I figure once he's off to college and only one is left in the house, good-bye to the M3 and 718 and hello to a 992 GTS or Turbo.
Now I just need to find a reasonable dealer. The first one I called offered 5% discount but requires a $5k non-refundable deposit just to wait in line for an allocation. My understanding is that non-refundable deposits aren't even legal in most states, including IL where I live.
718 GTS Build
Exterior Color: Chalk
Interior Color: Leather/Alcantara® Interior in Black/Chalk i.c.w. GTS Interior Package
Premium Package Plus i.c.w. Adaptive Sport Seats Plus (18-way)
Porsche Entry & Drive
Automatically Dimming Mirrors with Integrated Rain Sensor
Light Design Package
2-Zone Automatic Climate Control
Seat Heating
Deletion of Model Logo
Power Folding Exterior Mirrors
Rear Wing in High Gloss Black Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Door Handles in High Gloss Black Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Fuel Cap with Aluminum Look Finish Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
"PORSCHE" Logo in Satin Black
7-speed Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
Power Steering Plus
PASM Sport Suspension (Lowered 20 mm)
20" Carrera S Wheels
GTS Interior Package
Lane Change Assist
Steering Wheel in Leather
Heated Multifunction Steering Wheel
Adaptive Sport Seats Plus (18-way) with Memory Package
Smoking Package
Luggage Net in Passenger Footwell
Interior Leather
Steering Column Casing in Leather Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Interior Alcantara®
Sun Visors in Alcantara® Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Door Sill Guards in Carbon Fiber, Illuminated Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
PDK Gear Selector in Aluminum Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Pedals and Footrest in Aluminum Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
BOSE® Surround Sound System
Apple CarPlay™
Now I just need to find a reasonable dealer. The first one I called offered 5% discount but requires a $5k non-refundable deposit just to wait in line for an allocation. My understanding is that non-refundable deposits aren't even legal in most states, including IL where I live.
718 GTS Build
Exterior Color: Chalk
Interior Color: Leather/Alcantara® Interior in Black/Chalk i.c.w. GTS Interior Package
Premium Package Plus i.c.w. Adaptive Sport Seats Plus (18-way)
Porsche Entry & Drive
Automatically Dimming Mirrors with Integrated Rain Sensor
Light Design Package
2-Zone Automatic Climate Control
Seat Heating
Deletion of Model Logo
Power Folding Exterior Mirrors
Rear Wing in High Gloss Black Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Door Handles in High Gloss Black Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Fuel Cap with Aluminum Look Finish Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
"PORSCHE" Logo in Satin Black
7-speed Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
Power Steering Plus
PASM Sport Suspension (Lowered 20 mm)
20" Carrera S Wheels
GTS Interior Package
Lane Change Assist
Steering Wheel in Leather
Heated Multifunction Steering Wheel
Adaptive Sport Seats Plus (18-way) with Memory Package
Smoking Package
Luggage Net in Passenger Footwell
Interior Leather
Steering Column Casing in Leather Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Interior Alcantara®
Sun Visors in Alcantara® Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Door Sill Guards in Carbon Fiber, Illuminated Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
PDK Gear Selector in Aluminum Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
Pedals and Footrest in Aluminum Porsche Exclusive Manufaktur
BOSE® Surround Sound System
Apple CarPlay™
07-09-2018, 02:09 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Now I just need to find a reasonable dealer. The first one I called offered 5% discount but requires a $5k non-refundable deposit just to wait in line for an allocation. My understanding is that non-refundable deposits aren't even legal in most states, including IL where I live.
Given that this is simply for an allocation (you aren't even placing an order) then I think something more like $1k-2k (refundable, to hold your spot in line) is more reasonable, becoming locked in (non-refundable) upon placement of the order.
If they won't budge from $5k, it's not worth it and you should move on to another dealer
The only SURE way of getting it refundable, is to get it in writing that the deposit is refundable. Some dealerships refund it out of good faith, or if they're sure they can still sell the car that you ordered.