Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
09-21-2015, 11:34 AM
#1
Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
Does anybody know if the VW emission issue will effect the Cayenne diesel? The car is to new and I haven't had a chance to poke around under the hood but I would imagine that there is some shared logic with some of the electronics.
09-21-2015, 02:26 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I am curious too. I find the controversy a little overblown, as I am 100% sure their Diesel cars come pretty close to the MPG numbers in real life, and we all know that NO CAR at all matches the government testing MPG.
I think this is pretty much done across the industry, everyone knows what EPA testing procedure is, hence the ECU must be tuned-up in a way to consume less, emit least during the tests. Being gas, diesel, etc... and that's just an indication, as in real life consumption and emission is just another story. Unless EPA *actually tests in real-life*, I think it's a bit unfair if they target VW and not others, as the reason they found out was some Clean-Air guy from Europe came to US and drove one from California to Seattle, testing the emissions in real-life.
I think this is pretty much done across the industry, everyone knows what EPA testing procedure is, hence the ECU must be tuned-up in a way to consume less, emit least during the tests. Being gas, diesel, etc... and that's just an indication, as in real life consumption and emission is just another story. Unless EPA *actually tests in real-life*, I think it's a bit unfair if they target VW and not others, as the reason they found out was some Clean-Air guy from Europe came to US and drove one from California to Seattle, testing the emissions in real-life.
09-21-2015, 03:05 PM
#4
I am curious too. I find the controversy a little overblown, as I am 100% sure their Diesel cars come pretty close to the MPG numbers in real life, and we all know that NO CAR at all matches the government testing MPG.
I think this is pretty much done across the industry, everyone knows what EPA testing procedure is, hence the ECU must be tuned-up in a way to consume less, emit least during the tests. Being gas, diesel, etc... and that's just an indication as in real life, consumption and emission is just another story. Unless EPA *actually tests in real-life*, I think it's a bit unfair if they target VW and not others, as the reason they found out was some Clean-Air guy from Europe came to US and drove one from California to Seattle, testing the emissions in real-life.
I think this is pretty much done across the industry, everyone knows what EPA testing procedure is, hence the ECU must be tuned-up in a way to consume less, emit least during the tests. Being gas, diesel, etc... and that's just an indication as in real life, consumption and emission is just another story. Unless EPA *actually tests in real-life*, I think it's a bit unfair if they target VW and not others, as the reason they found out was some Clean-Air guy from Europe came to US and drove one from California to Seattle, testing the emissions in real-life.
That's a complete mischaracterization of the entire issue, don't you think? All vehicle manufacturers have to comply with the EPA metrics for pollution. To that end, all manufacturers install pollution equipment to help achieve these metrics. What VW is being accused of is enabling the pollution equipment ONLY when the car detects that it's being tested, but otherwise disabling (at least some of) the pollution equipment. This completely defeats the entire purpose of having pollution equipment in place if it's only enabled when being tested, but not during the 99.9% of day-to-day driving. Not to mention this gives VW a huge advantage against other manufacturers who do comply with the EPA requirements.
No one is arguing against the fact that all vehicles likely emit more pollution in day-to-day driving than what is measured when they are being tested for emissions. The problem is that VW is the only manufacturer who is actively disabling pollution equipment under all scenarios except for when they are being tested! Do you not see the difference?
09-21-2015, 03:12 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
It appears that you're framing the issue as: all manufacturers' vehicles perform better under the EPA testing circumstances, and worse "in real-life" circumstances, therefore VW is on par with all the manufacturers because they all emit more pollution in day-to-day driving than under the EPA circumstances.
That's a complete mischaracterization of the entire issue, don't you think? All vehicle manufacturers have to comply with the EPA metrics for pollution. To that end, all manufacturers install pollution equipment to help achieve these metrics. What VW is being accused of is enabling the pollution equipment ONLY when the car detects that it's being tested, but otherwise disabling (at least some of) the pollution equipment. This completely defeats the entire purpose of having pollution equipment in place if it's only enabled when being tested, but not during the 99.9% of day-to-day driving. Not to mention this gives VW a huge advantage against other manufacturers who do comply with the EPA requirements.
No one is arguing against the fact that all vehicles likely emit more pollution in day-to-day driving than what is measured when they are being tested for emissions. The problem is that VW is the only manufacturer who is actively disabling pollution equipment under all scenarios except for when they are being tested! Do you not see the difference?
That's a complete mischaracterization of the entire issue, don't you think? All vehicle manufacturers have to comply with the EPA metrics for pollution. To that end, all manufacturers install pollution equipment to help achieve these metrics. What VW is being accused of is enabling the pollution equipment ONLY when the car detects that it's being tested, but otherwise disabling (at least some of) the pollution equipment. This completely defeats the entire purpose of having pollution equipment in place if it's only enabled when being tested, but not during the 99.9% of day-to-day driving. Not to mention this gives VW a huge advantage against other manufacturers who do comply with the EPA requirements.
No one is arguing against the fact that all vehicles likely emit more pollution in day-to-day driving than what is measured when they are being tested for emissions. The problem is that VW is the only manufacturer who is actively disabling pollution equipment under all scenarios except for when they are being tested! Do you not see the difference?
I just don't think it's fair to compare real-life vs. lab data and come to any conclusion. Have they tested a KIA emission during real-life driving comparing it to EPA tests results? I can almost bet ECU adopts during the EPA test for MPG, as it can easily change the timing to lower the HP and reduce emission and EPA does NOT test emission per HP.
09-21-2015, 03:22 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
No no - we're not talking "slightly more polluting" than when it's getting tested - they're putting out up to 40 times more pollutants than when tested. What VW did goes way above and beyond just "mis-stating a mpg number." They purposely tuned the car to operate clean when under testing, and then not clean when driven in normal conditions to achieve those excellent mpg numbers.
Granted, anyone with a tuned car that lives in an area with emissions tests will feel a bit of camaraderie with VW (I think it's hilarious what they did), but this is likely going to go down as the single biggest fine levied against an auto company to date, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are criminal charges against them.
The part that sucks, though, is that we've been lead to think that VW has achieved all these results from excellent engineering, but really, they just cheated. It's not only a huge black mark against VW, it's a giant black mark against diesel in general.
It's no secret that diesel emission requirements in this country, especially cali, are ridiculous. But, that's likely to make headlines compared to the massive fines VW will receive.
Granted, anyone with a tuned car that lives in an area with emissions tests will feel a bit of camaraderie with VW (I think it's hilarious what they did), but this is likely going to go down as the single biggest fine levied against an auto company to date, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are criminal charges against them.
The part that sucks, though, is that we've been lead to think that VW has achieved all these results from excellent engineering, but really, they just cheated. It's not only a huge black mark against VW, it's a giant black mark against diesel in general.
It's no secret that diesel emission requirements in this country, especially cali, are ridiculous. But, that's likely to make headlines compared to the massive fines VW will receive.
09-21-2015, 03:35 PM
#7
It appears that you're framing the issue as: all manufacturers' vehicles perform better under the EPA testing circumstances, and worse "in real-life" circumstances, therefore VW is on par with all the manufacturers because they all emit more pollution in day-to-day driving than under the EPA circumstances.
That's a complete mischaracterization of the entire issue, don't you think? All vehicle manufacturers have to comply with the EPA metrics for pollution. To that end, all manufacturers install pollution equipment to help achieve these metrics. What VW is being accused of is enabling the pollution equipment ONLY when the car detects that it's being tested, but otherwise disabling (at least some of) the pollution equipment. This completely defeats the entire purpose of having pollution equipment in place if it's only enabled when being tested, but not during the 99.9% of day-to-day driving. Not to mention this gives VW a huge advantage against other manufacturers who do comply with the EPA requirements.
No one is arguing against the fact that all vehicles likely emit more pollution in day-to-day driving than what is measured when they are being tested for emissions. The problem is that VW is the only manufacturer who is actively disabling pollution equipment under all scenarios except for when they are being tested! Do you not see the difference?
That's a complete mischaracterization of the entire issue, don't you think? All vehicle manufacturers have to comply with the EPA metrics for pollution. To that end, all manufacturers install pollution equipment to help achieve these metrics. What VW is being accused of is enabling the pollution equipment ONLY when the car detects that it's being tested, but otherwise disabling (at least some of) the pollution equipment. This completely defeats the entire purpose of having pollution equipment in place if it's only enabled when being tested, but not during the 99.9% of day-to-day driving. Not to mention this gives VW a huge advantage against other manufacturers who do comply with the EPA requirements.
No one is arguing against the fact that all vehicles likely emit more pollution in day-to-day driving than what is measured when they are being tested for emissions. The problem is that VW is the only manufacturer who is actively disabling pollution equipment under all scenarios except for when they are being tested! Do you not see the difference?
I`ve owned diesels and can honestly say I applaud any attempt to remove/bypass any of these tree hugger pleasing devices that the manufacturers are forced to implement
I still don't understand how expensive fragile devices that rob power and are detrimental to fuel efficiency are good for our environment
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Leadfoot_mf (03-28-2020)
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09-21-2015, 03:50 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
After reading some more about this, here's the deal:
- This only impacts cars WITHOUT Ad-Blue solution
- TDI cars on larger Audi, Porsche, VW do have the Ad-Blue and are not affected
- VW 2.0 TDI cars, without Ad-blu are the cars impacted, i.e. Jetta, Golf, Passat, and Audi A3 TDI
- VW ECU detected EPA test conditions, lowered the fuel rate, hence reducing emission.
This basically means that in-order to meet the test, they lowered the fuel-rate, leading to lower emissions while fuel rate would go back to normal during regular driving. This most likely would have impacted the power levels on the car, and its performance but that's not being tested. So, if they issue a new ECU software update to then comply with the emission levels, it will 100% lower the performance of the car which would then mean all buyers could sue the company for mis-representation of the car performance.
To me, this literally could mean ban of ANY Diesel car without Ad-Blue solution, a recall of all 2.0 TDI cars, OR, a new ECU leading to reduction of TDI Power and offering owners $5-10K rebate for the lower performance of the car after applying the ECU downgrade! Plus whatever fine they may need to pay. This is BAD!
- This only impacts cars WITHOUT Ad-Blue solution
- TDI cars on larger Audi, Porsche, VW do have the Ad-Blue and are not affected
- VW 2.0 TDI cars, without Ad-blu are the cars impacted, i.e. Jetta, Golf, Passat, and Audi A3 TDI
- VW ECU detected EPA test conditions, lowered the fuel rate, hence reducing emission.
This basically means that in-order to meet the test, they lowered the fuel-rate, leading to lower emissions while fuel rate would go back to normal during regular driving. This most likely would have impacted the power levels on the car, and its performance but that's not being tested. So, if they issue a new ECU software update to then comply with the emission levels, it will 100% lower the performance of the car which would then mean all buyers could sue the company for mis-representation of the car performance.
To me, this literally could mean ban of ANY Diesel car without Ad-Blue solution, a recall of all 2.0 TDI cars, OR, a new ECU leading to reduction of TDI Power and offering owners $5-10K rebate for the lower performance of the car after applying the ECU downgrade! Plus whatever fine they may need to pay. This is BAD!
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jung996fraulein (08-28-2022)
09-21-2015, 04:03 PM
#10
Instructor
Porsche is affected, they own 51% of VW. PorscheSE stock is also down. After GMs management killed 174 people with an ignition coverup and only paid $900 million fine, hard to believe VW will pay $18 billion or whatever everyone is saying. But I have to admit as an owner of a Porsche Cayenne and several Audi's it would be nice if VW management had better judgement. It hurts all the brands.
09-21-2015, 04:15 PM
#11
Porsche is affected, they own 51% of VW. PorscheSE stock is also down. After GMs management killed 174 people with an ignition coverup and only paid $900 million fine, hard to believe VW will pay $18 billion or whatever everyone is saying. But I have to admit as an owner of a Porsche Cayenne and several Audi's it would be nice if VW management had better judgement. It hurts all the brands.
They gave people a good product that hadn't been negatively compromised by the impossible tree hugger measures that they force on everyone
Admittedly they bent the rules to get it through the legislation but I`m good with that, consumers got a product that made the kind of power it was capable of without loads of constrictions which would also have negatively impacted the MPG figures
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Leadfoot_mf (04-27-2020)
09-21-2015, 04:20 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
All this, and they just sent out letters extending the warranty to 120K miles and 10 years on the HPFP on those cars. They were designed for use with European diesel which has a much higher lubricity. So, they would fail early on, and when they fail, they send metal shards through the entire fuel system. Owners would have to pay $7K to have the gas tank forward replaced without that warranty. The VW TDi's were also suffering from hydrolock when the IC hoses would fill with condensed water. Some owners were blowing out the lower end of their cars over it. VW came out with a redesigned IC setup, but it still didn't completely fix the problem. Many owners now just empty the IC hose more regularly.
I love TDi cars, but with those HPFP issues, the hydrolock problem, and now this - it's becoming difficult to justify all the headaches you get with owning a diesel in this country. We were just starting to look at a new Golf Sportwagen, but I'll wait to see what the performance and mpg figures end up being after the recall.
It sucks, sometimes, getting a consistent 15 mpg in the CTT, but there is something really nice about having a fairly simple emissions system compared to the diesels.
I love TDi cars, but with those HPFP issues, the hydrolock problem, and now this - it's becoming difficult to justify all the headaches you get with owning a diesel in this country. We were just starting to look at a new Golf Sportwagen, but I'll wait to see what the performance and mpg figures end up being after the recall.
It sucks, sometimes, getting a consistent 15 mpg in the CTT, but there is something really nice about having a fairly simple emissions system compared to the diesels.
09-21-2015, 04:48 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
I still think Diesel is a great engine for Cayenne, as it's done right with Ad-Blue.
09-21-2015, 04:50 PM
#14
All this, and they just sent out letters extending the warranty to 120K miles and 10 years on the HPFP on those cars. They were designed for use with European diesel which has a much higher lubricity. So, they would fail early on, and when they fail, they send metal shards through the entire fuel system. Owners would have to pay $7K to have the gas tank forward replaced without that warranty. The VW TDi's were also suffering from hydrolock when the IC hoses would fill with condensed water. Some owners were blowing out the lower end of their cars over it. VW came out with a redesigned IC setup, but it still didn't completely fix the problem. Many owners now just empty the IC hose more regularly.
I love TDi cars, but with those HPFP issues, the hydrolock problem, and now this - it's becoming difficult to justify all the headaches you get with owning a diesel in this country. We were just starting to look at a new Golf Sportwagen, but I'll wait to see what the performance and mpg figures end up being after the recall.
It sucks, sometimes, getting a consistent 15 mpg in the CTT, but there is something really nice about having a fairly simple emissions system compared to the diesels.
I love TDi cars, but with those HPFP issues, the hydrolock problem, and now this - it's becoming difficult to justify all the headaches you get with owning a diesel in this country. We were just starting to look at a new Golf Sportwagen, but I'll wait to see what the performance and mpg figures end up being after the recall.
It sucks, sometimes, getting a consistent 15 mpg in the CTT, but there is something really nice about having a fairly simple emissions system compared to the diesels.
Anything else is only a band aid
09-21-2015, 04:52 PM
#15
But only if all the hippy controls (DPFs, EGRs, DEF, etc etc) that have been legislated into them are proving trouble free, right now this is not the case
