Toronto Motorsports Park vs. Mosport
07-19-2011, 11:12 AM
#1
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Toronto Motorsports Park vs. Mosport
Since you guys do more track here than the other forums I am on how do they compare. I only have Mosport experience. How does Cayuga compare? Faster? Slower? Cayuga does seem to have more turns.
Any input is greatly appreciated.
Any input is greatly appreciated.
07-19-2011, 11:28 AM
#2
Race Car
Not even the same ballpark. Mosport is a professional race track, one of the best in the world. Cayuga (Toronto Motorsports Park, properly), is a practice/technical track. Flat and slow. That's not to say it's not fun, but it's just not at all the same experience. It's like a par 3 compared to Pebble Beach. TMP is like the development track at Mosport. Watch a few youtube videos and you'll see what I mean. Mosport is mostly done in 3rd and 4th gear (for an average street car) whereas TMP is mostly done in 2nd and 3rd.
07-19-2011, 11:34 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
I just started doing track days / drivers ed this year.
Cayuga is great to start on. Its a very open track - only 1 wall, lots off run off, no blind turns. If there arent a ton of cars on the track, its very safe. I had an instructor the first two times. it was great.
I just did a 3 day weekend at Mosport w/ the PCA club. It was awesome, but a bit scarier. It is a MUCH faster track. Very technical, but in a different way - it is more focused on smoothness and getting your lines right. A lot of "blind" turns (turn in before you can see the apex or exit). I had an instructor the entire time... by the end I was really focused on consistency.
Cayuga is great to start on. Its a very open track - only 1 wall, lots off run off, no blind turns. If there arent a ton of cars on the track, its very safe. I had an instructor the first two times. it was great.
I just did a 3 day weekend at Mosport w/ the PCA club. It was awesome, but a bit scarier. It is a MUCH faster track. Very technical, but in a different way - it is more focused on smoothness and getting your lines right. A lot of "blind" turns (turn in before you can see the apex or exit). I had an instructor the entire time... by the end I was really focused on consistency.
07-19-2011, 11:58 AM
#4
Race Car
Good point - Mosport is NOT a beginner track. I couldn't imagine doing my first ever track day there. My first day there I was petrified for the first few sessions. Took me a long time to come to enjoy it, but once you do... We're VERY lucky to have a track of that caliber in our back yard.
07-19-2011, 12:24 PM
#5
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So I'm doing it a$$ backwards then 
Its was really dumb of me of catching the last 10 minutes of instructions as I was late. Then just jumped in and followed the other Ferrari cars.
I wasnt terrified at Mosport on the first lap. I was grinning ear to ear. Got the hang of it by 3rd lap...following other experienced drivers and following their lines.
Yeah mostly 3rd and 4th except for Moss Hairpin which I was down to 2nd so that before exit I had lots of torque to flip to 3rd and 4th for the back straight way.
By 3rd lap I was dying to pass some of the fcars but held back. I did not pass at all. Mind you I think the group was slow as they were only going 160-180 in the back straight.
I think you Pcars normally hit 180-230 on the back straight at Mosport.
Mosport is fast and does have fast blind turns. It really only has one slow turn which is the the Moss hairpin. Mosport has lots of room and the track is wide and has lots of run off.
Based on the track of Cayuga "online" it has many more tight turns I think.
I am scared of that wall in Cayuga as that part of the track seems really narrow. I would hate to see my car wrecked because the wife or myself did not negociate that turn into the straight correctly.
I did see that Youtube video with that Subaru or honda flip on the hay bail.
Cayuga is good then so that the wife and myself can get some basic instructions.
Its was really dumb of me of catching the last 10 minutes of instructions as I was late. Then just jumped in and followed the other Ferrari cars.
I wasnt terrified at Mosport on the first lap. I was grinning ear to ear. Got the hang of it by 3rd lap...following other experienced drivers and following their lines.
Yeah mostly 3rd and 4th except for Moss Hairpin which I was down to 2nd so that before exit I had lots of torque to flip to 3rd and 4th for the back straight way.
By 3rd lap I was dying to pass some of the fcars but held back. I did not pass at all. Mind you I think the group was slow as they were only going 160-180 in the back straight.
I think you Pcars normally hit 180-230 on the back straight at Mosport.
Mosport is fast and does have fast blind turns. It really only has one slow turn which is the the Moss hairpin. Mosport has lots of room and the track is wide and has lots of run off.
Based on the track of Cayuga "online" it has many more tight turns I think.
I am scared of that wall in Cayuga as that part of the track seems really narrow. I would hate to see my car wrecked because the wife or myself did not negociate that turn into the straight correctly.
I did see that Youtube video with that Subaru or honda flip on the hay bail.
Cayuga is good then so that the wife and myself can get some basic instructions.
07-19-2011, 12:41 PM
#6
Instructor
Cayuga (TMP) is a very user friendly starter track. Mosport is a professional track, that takes a lot of skill and a good set of nads to drive properly.
Saturn, instead of coming out of the last corner full blast, roll on the throttle and don't pinch too hard. The only people that ever hit that wall are the ones that over drive their cars.
Every corner in Mosport should be feared more than that wall at Cayuga
Saturn, instead of coming out of the last corner full blast, roll on the throttle and don't pinch too hard. The only people that ever hit that wall are the ones that over drive their cars.
Every corner in Mosport should be feared more than that wall at Cayuga
07-19-2011, 12:56 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Cayuga (TMP) is a very user friendly starter track. Mosport is a professional track, that takes a lot of skill and a good set of nads to drive properly.
Saturn, instead of coming out of the last corner full blast, roll on the throttle and don't pinch too hard. The only people that ever hit that wall are the ones that over drive their cars.
Every corner in Mosport should be feared more than that wall at Cayuga
Saturn, instead of coming out of the last corner full blast, roll on the throttle and don't pinch too hard. The only people that ever hit that wall are the ones that over drive their cars.
Every corner in Mosport should be feared more than that wall at Cayuga
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07-19-2011, 01:31 PM
#10
Race Car
Yeah, me too.
There are a couple things you said that sound a bit concerning. Mosport has VERY little run-off room in most places, compared to Cayuga. You have to consider the speeds you're carrying. With the last turn at cayuga, with the wall right there, I'm in 2nd gear, around 5000 rpm, so maybe I'm going 75-80 km/h, I don't know. It's about the same speed I exit 5b at at Mosport (Moss Corner). I do take it easy on the last corner of TMP - if I'm going to lose time on a lap, it's there. Compared to, say, the left-turn after the chicane, where I'm going as fast as I possible can after downshifting to 2nd.
The average intermediate driver will be going around 200-230 km/h at the end of the straight at Mosport, depending on what kind of car they're driving. In a 6th-gen Z06 I'm going about 225-230. In my 72 911, I'm going about 175. The run-off room at the end of the straight is NOT that big, at speeds over 200 km/h - that's why they paved it recently, so that you can get more grip if you've lost control. The front straight at Mosport has NO runoff room whatsoever, and I've seen countless cars wrecked there because they took 10 too fast and lost control.
The track may be wide, but don't let that fool you. When us non-pro drivers are out there in our street cars and doing a good hot lap (i.e. driving the car at 85-90% of its capabilities), the room outside of the perfect line is very small. For example, cresting 4 into the downhill, you can carry a lot of speed, but if you get too far off-line you're going to find the car unbalanced very quickly. Combine that with the debris that's always over to the right, and you're going to be getting very familiar with the trees, and it's going to hurt more than your wallet.
Really, you have to be very respectful of Mosport. It can and will bite. Ask me how I know. Luckily that only cost me $2k in body work.
There are a couple things you said that sound a bit concerning. Mosport has VERY little run-off room in most places, compared to Cayuga. You have to consider the speeds you're carrying. With the last turn at cayuga, with the wall right there, I'm in 2nd gear, around 5000 rpm, so maybe I'm going 75-80 km/h, I don't know. It's about the same speed I exit 5b at at Mosport (Moss Corner). I do take it easy on the last corner of TMP - if I'm going to lose time on a lap, it's there. Compared to, say, the left-turn after the chicane, where I'm going as fast as I possible can after downshifting to 2nd.
The average intermediate driver will be going around 200-230 km/h at the end of the straight at Mosport, depending on what kind of car they're driving. In a 6th-gen Z06 I'm going about 225-230. In my 72 911, I'm going about 175. The run-off room at the end of the straight is NOT that big, at speeds over 200 km/h - that's why they paved it recently, so that you can get more grip if you've lost control. The front straight at Mosport has NO runoff room whatsoever, and I've seen countless cars wrecked there because they took 10 too fast and lost control.
The track may be wide, but don't let that fool you. When us non-pro drivers are out there in our street cars and doing a good hot lap (i.e. driving the car at 85-90% of its capabilities), the room outside of the perfect line is very small. For example, cresting 4 into the downhill, you can carry a lot of speed, but if you get too far off-line you're going to find the car unbalanced very quickly. Combine that with the debris that's always over to the right, and you're going to be getting very familiar with the trees, and it's going to hurt more than your wallet.
Really, you have to be very respectful of Mosport. It can and will bite. Ask me how I know. Luckily that only cost me $2k in body work.
07-19-2011, 01:31 PM
#11
Instructor
Young kid with presumably no track experience.... takes family members car (imported from Japan, right side drive), also crashes and flips on a warm up lap.
It's the driver not track. Also, some of the people that set up these lap days should be banned from doing so. No helmets required unless a convertible... that's bloody ridiculous.
It's the driver not track. Also, some of the people that set up these lap days should be banned from doing so. No helmets required unless a convertible... that's bloody ridiculous.
07-19-2011, 02:15 PM
#12
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The Car was "Borrowed" from this Brother (Without his brother Knowing) While he (brother) was on Vacation.. Here is the Kicker... the Brother Borrowed the car from his Bosses Brother with intentions of buying it...
07-19-2011, 02:34 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Get in car instruction at either track. They will help you with the line.
For Cayuga/TMP, just dont go to fast on the last turn if you are worried about the wall. That is what I do.
For Cayuga/TMP, just dont go to fast on the last turn if you are worried about the wall. That is what I do.
07-19-2011, 02:35 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
