Macca

Thanks for picking that up Walt. Im not sure where I got 35 psi from! That makes much more sense now.

Its amazing how the headline numbers for your modified 996TT and the QV are almost identical. The weight is likely similar too (the QV with 8ZF is 1600 kg).

On the question of track reliability, in stock form the QV seems ok for a day at the track as a friend in Italy and another in Millbrook recently found out during a demo day. However, how it would perform with repeated track work is totally unknown and I suspect I would be no where near as durable as a Porsche!

An outfit in Germany called Pogea racing have already bought a QV and started to run it up on their dyno. With an ECU flash only it makes 600 bhp & 700nm. No idea to reliability but they seem a very competent outfit. They have a in situ 3D scanner and have started to scan the body panels to turn them into CF etc! A bunch of well funded young guys that have great tech nous and state of teh art facility - big tuners to the FCA products (Fiat 500, Abath, Alfa 4C etc).

Alfa will likely offer a "GTA" version of the Giulia Quadrifoglio. Its like the RS version I guess. Rumours suggest it will be a couple of years away (probably during a mid cycle refresh) but would likely include some weight savings, some power increases, and some added rear aero. It will be interesting to see what time brings...

One of the nice things about new cars is the industry around them (aftermarket) jumps instantly on these platforms to find innovation and other ways to part your money from your wallet. The aftermarket industry surrounding the 2016 Ford Focus RS is already many times larger than what I had access to with the 993 by way of example.

pcarplayer

No worries John. The picnic is on the 4th. The family heads off the France on the 1st (i join them on the 23rd) so no doubt i will be at a loose end. No better way to spend it than using power tools


Yes Annecy is a beautiful place, truly. The old city is a lot of fun. I swear when the canal are running you could surf them a' la' Munich. The lake is beautiful and the best Chocolate Ancienne is be be found at L'impérial Palace. Agreed, there is some stunning wildlife to be seen in the area as well

lol

Macca

Walt. I like fishing!

Thanks for trawling up that data on the Focus RS. I quoted the 470nm overboost torque deliberately as its the max torque (held for 15s so practically long enough). The actual torque is normal mode is 440nm as you point out. I took the peak torque figures from the factory brochure sent to me by Ford NZ...maybe they are being a bit generous.

Macca

Walt. I like fishing!

Warwick - what a wonderful plan! Great part of the world. Great roads too!

Thanks for trawling up that data on the Focus RS. I quoted the 470nm overboost torque deliberately as its the max torque (held for 15s so practically long enough). The actual torque is normal mode is 440nm as you point out. I took the peak torque figures from the factory brochure sent to me by Ford NZ...maybe they are being a bit generous.

Macca

...

996tnz

Yes, unless Alfa has been a little optimistic, near identical across most stats, right down to the yellow terror's (well researched but admittedly theoretical) estimated mid 7.30s 'Ring time. It's not until we get to more extreme stats like standing kilometers and 0-250/300/320 that the 996T should still (cross fingers) consistently show the QV a little daylight.

That reminds me of something I wrote here about 18 months ago after our RSG 'Last of the Summer Rum' track day:

Now, three years on from my last upgrade, some super saloons look to have caught up. Might make for some interesting track days and sprints if you bring big red along a few times?

Macca

Hi Walt. Id love to get the Alfa QV out on track once for a session or two, just to find out how it performs. The Focus RS too (before and after the Cobb AP Tune+ 400hp/550nm software flash Ive planned).

The reality is neither of these cars will be track cars for me.

The only performance data I've seen printed to date is on the 6 speed QV, 0-400 of 12.0s. The 6 speed is inferior to the 8ZF in terms of acceleration performance according to CH and his ilk and as demonstrated by the "famous" Ring time video of 7.32 (the mt version was 7.39). Im guessing the 8ZF at 11.7-11.8

The issue with the test to date is they have mostly been the MT version not the Z8F version we get in RHD markets. Also there have not yet been any detailed empirical performance tests done on the Z8F in the media, but now the car is in the US from last week I think we will see more of those.

A 7.30 Ring time is stonking. Puts you in some serious company!

This is the definitive bible on Ring track times by SportAuto. A little bit old now as it needs updating with 991 GT3 (7.28) and 991 RS (7.25) and no doubt some others.

Last and interesting stat before we bore all the others and scare them away - Alfa QV makes over 176bhp/L! That is a better specific output than the Ferrari 488 on which the engine design is descended.

Chris_chch

To add to all the fun turbo talk... We bought a 2016 WRX in April this year (ordered in November 2015) and the way the twin scroll develops boost is quite insane! It peaks at 20-21psi at virtually no revs, but alas... the huge shove you get is all but gone by the time you pass 4500rpm. Boost tappers right off as well... I'm assuming this is all in the name of engine longevity... But if it kept pulling like it does in the first half of the rev range, we would probably actually keep driving it. The mapping of the fly by wire throttle probably doesn't help. Its about as far from linear as you can get. Which is why I leave it in the garage, and drive our STI Forester 99% of the time. Its just a much more fun car!

gt38088

this is what I was talking about earlier - It is pretty had to get torque at bottom as well as big power at the top. Twin scroll helps bring it in a bit earlier but higher base compression and other things to help low end mean that they have to taper the boost curve up top in production engines for reliability. Higher cost builds (and race engines) will use closed closed deck block, high spec gaskets and fasteners but can still be prone to gasket failure. For reliability it is easier but more costly to optimize for top end and run less base compression then use electric turbo to fill in the bottom or some other form of anti lag.

Macca

Looking at the charts below from Ford it would appear the 2016 RS is very similar in character. Makes all its torque from 2000-4500 and is flat. The 1600-5000 in the brochure is not correct!

The Alfa is interesting, it may be a different approach to turbo charging or the result of using two twin scroll turbos but the curve here runs from 2000-6000 rpm. Not that either of these graphs is particularly accurate I suspect.

996tnz

A retune (custom mapping if need be) would help on the response side of things but the Forester would presumably still have a more comfortable ride as a daily.

As Graeme says there is a tradeoff between fast spooling to get low rpm torque in early (higher CR, smaller lighter turbo), and the ability to compress huge volumes of air for top end power (bigger, stronger, heavier, later spooling turbos). Some cars look to work around that with small then big sequential turbos (eg 959), twin parallel smaller turbos (eg 996), quad turbos (Veyron) or twincharging (supercharger for lowdown torque working with a turbo for up top power). Now as Graeme states, electric superchargers are maturing to fill in the low rpm and of things so bigger conventional turbos can be used for the top end, or even do the whole job in milder applications.

I could mod my car for 1000+HP but it would have massive lag below about 3500rpm and be a bit of a dog around town. Comatose then manic, and more of a claymore than a katana. Next upgrade I'll likely target about 650 HP with turbos and fueling, or perhaps a bit more if I touch the internals. At that level there are billet and hybrid turbos that still perform great down low as well.

The Focus won't have the cachet of the Alfa but should be the more fun drive and a serious weapon at those Cobb power levels. My best estimate based on times achieved by keen amateurs in similarly modded 996Ts, plus a few similarly modded tuner cars tested by german motoring mags, is mid-7.30s so probably 7.32 to 7.37. But take her to 650 odd HP plus some basic adjustable suspension along the lines of KW3s or better and that drops by another 10 seconds. Much beyond that and you're talking a still road registered but track optimised special like 'Maya the Bee'. Still 'only' 670 HP but bigger torque from a 3.9L block, which ran a SportAuto confirmed 7.16 a decade or so ago on road tyres with a 997 GT2RS bodykit fitted.

With turbos becoming ubiquitous, a new era in performance comparisons is dawning and comparisons will be harder to rely on. Compared to blueprinting say a Ferrari block and putting in all the best parts for a press car, it is very easy to just flash on a 'reviewer special' tune with higher boost levels.

Chris_chch

I looked at getting a COBB for the WRX, but the reality is I just don't like the car enough to spend any money on it! Any one want a 2016 WRX Manual with 6000kms on the clock?

Oddly enough, the STI Forester is a far rowdier car to daily. VERY stiff suspension, big Brembos, and more power make it a real wolf in church chariot clothing.

Forester and the 996TT will be it for 2017 I think.

996tnz

Those flat torque plateaus are artificially imposed by the manufacturer, via ECU maps like the RS ones I posted earlier. So they can cap the underlying torque curve at whatever level suits them.

Primarily perhaps to give a turbo car the sort of linear response of power to rpms that most drivers are used to from naturally aspirated engines. You can see the inflection points of the power curves (well lines under this scenario) match the beginning and end of the torque plateaus.

It also means that next year's model can have better stats at the press of a button by the marketing department rather than needing actual engineering. Or to ensure a given model doesn't encroach on the next one up the range.

But it can also be to protect the rods (big torque at low rpms can only be got from big combustion chamber pressures), the transmission, drivetrain etc. Or to manage heat so that it doesn't overwhelm the intercoolers and result in power reductions from timing being pulled due to overly hot inlet charges. Or even just for emissions control and compliance.

996tnz

Interesting. I considered the Forester too as an allroad replacement, before going the Cayenne route. Sounds more fun than I gave it credit for!

John McM

Nothing like a deadline to keep things on the move. I'll focus on the things that make the car mobile again (rear suspension, alignment and drivers window) plus the door cards. The upholsterer has gone quiet which is rarely a good sign so it will be half completed. Still, if we can show the paint etc at their best that will help. Evening of 2/3? I'm buying the Karcher foam gun attachment this weekend if I can find it. The FJ6 https://www.kaercher.com/nz/accessor...-26431470.html ?