Rear collision avoidance systems and the HPDE environment
03-18-2017, 10:07 AM
#31
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^ thank you - I thought maybe it was "belts and suspenders " for disabling the system as it's been noted these systems may not be fully disabled even when off.
Now I understand your comment about replacement cost!
Now I understand your comment about replacement cost!
03-18-2017, 06:25 PM
#32
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I agree DTMiller - and I think my explanation was inarticulate. If someone cuts in front of someone with the braking system - the car that was cut in front of will brake hard when it senses a car suddenly in front. If anyone is following them and not expecting it (even if they are at a reasonable distance) - toward the end of a straight where speeds are high and lots of ground is covered every second - if the driver in the following car does not expect hard braking ahead, and doesn't react immediately, or has someone on their tail....it could be serious. It could easily become a chain reaction if enough cars are following in close proximity.
Still not sure I'm drawing a "clear" picture (even though I can imagine it in my head I don't know if I'm articulating)
Still not sure I'm drawing a "clear" picture (even though I can imagine it in my head I don't know if I'm articulating)
Where this system can be dangerous is when a car with such a system is passing and gains passing speed while still behind the car being passed, even if partially (e.g., to use draft or to have a better line). The system does not "know" that the driver is about to turn and pass the obstacle and assumes the obstacle is getting rear-ended. Happened to me once.
Unlike other nannies, this one can actually be very disruptive and dangerous even for a relative beginner. And it only helps if you are not paying attention, which should not happen on a track anyway. So I'd turn it off as a matter of policy.
03-18-2017, 06:50 PM
#33
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^ My experience is different. Our car allowed you to set the distance, and it would brake as soon as the distance was reached. It was not relative to speed.
In a friend's 2017 VW R32 - his car also allows him to set for distance (near, med and far - not sure what that equates to in car lengths or meters or whatever but he has 3 choices for "sensitivity"). He may also turn it off.
What about this situation: You just came onto the front straight at the GLen (or any long straight). You are overtaking a slower car who sees you coming and gives a point. You pass them and even though you are going faster - when you cut back over in front of that car - his system kicks in and brakes hard, in the middle of a straight when no one would be expecting a car to brake hard. Lets say there's someone behind him. That person is not expecting a car ahead to brake hard until they get close to the turn at the end of the straight.
Now take a group of newbies who often get nervous about being off line and always seem anxious (in my experience) to get back online after passing someone.
I can easily see where proximity to other cars could causes a car to brake hard, and where it could happen in a very surprising way which could result in an accident if everyone around isn't fast with reactions and paying attention. And if attention is drawn for even a moment to something else (lets say they glance in the mirror or at the instruments for a moment) - that's all it takes for a collision.
I agree that the system can be dangerous in the circumstances you describe, but I think it could be more widespread than that. And I am not familiar enough with the various systems in different cars to understand if some might be "better" than others - but it would seem there is no place for this on a race track (either by disallowing the car, or by requiring the driver to disable the system).
In a friend's 2017 VW R32 - his car also allows him to set for distance (near, med and far - not sure what that equates to in car lengths or meters or whatever but he has 3 choices for "sensitivity"). He may also turn it off.
What about this situation: You just came onto the front straight at the GLen (or any long straight). You are overtaking a slower car who sees you coming and gives a point. You pass them and even though you are going faster - when you cut back over in front of that car - his system kicks in and brakes hard, in the middle of a straight when no one would be expecting a car to brake hard. Lets say there's someone behind him. That person is not expecting a car ahead to brake hard until they get close to the turn at the end of the straight.
Now take a group of newbies who often get nervous about being off line and always seem anxious (in my experience) to get back online after passing someone.
I can easily see where proximity to other cars could causes a car to brake hard, and where it could happen in a very surprising way which could result in an accident if everyone around isn't fast with reactions and paying attention. And if attention is drawn for even a moment to something else (lets say they glance in the mirror or at the instruments for a moment) - that's all it takes for a collision.
I agree that the system can be dangerous in the circumstances you describe, but I think it could be more widespread than that. And I am not familiar enough with the various systems in different cars to understand if some might be "better" than others - but it would seem there is no place for this on a race track (either by disallowing the car, or by requiring the driver to disable the system).
03-18-2017, 07:03 PM
#34
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^ My experience is different. Our car allowed you to set the distance, and it would brake as soon as the distance was reached. It was not relative to speed.
In a friend's 2017 VW R32 - his car also allows him to set for distance (near, med and far - not sure what that equates to in car lengths or meters or whatever but he has 3 choices for "sensitivity"). He may also turn it off.
What about this situation: You just came onto the front straight at the GLen (or any long straight). You are overtaking a slower car who sees you coming and gives a point. You pass them and even though you are going faster - when you cut back over in front of that car - his system kicks in and brakes hard, in the middle of a straight when no one would be expecting a car to brake hard. Lets say there's someone behind him. That person is not expecting a car ahead to brake hard until they get close to the turn at the end of the straight.
In a friend's 2017 VW R32 - his car also allows him to set for distance (near, med and far - not sure what that equates to in car lengths or meters or whatever but he has 3 choices for "sensitivity"). He may also turn it off.
What about this situation: You just came onto the front straight at the GLen (or any long straight). You are overtaking a slower car who sees you coming and gives a point. You pass them and even though you are going faster - when you cut back over in front of that car - his system kicks in and brakes hard, in the middle of a straight when no one would be expecting a car to brake hard. Lets say there's someone behind him. That person is not expecting a car ahead to brake hard until they get close to the turn at the end of the straight.
04-10-2017, 10:47 PM
#35
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http://www.bimmerfile.com/2017/04/09...me-track-days/
SOME NEW BMWS TO BE BANNED FROM TRACK DAYS
The day many of us have feared is here. For the first time that we know of a BMWCCA Chapter is banning all cars with collision avoidance systems from track days. more specifically the Genesee Valley Chapter is banning cars with “automatic emergency braking” and/or “lane keeping assistance” systems. This is due to the systems causing cars to behave in unpredictable and undesirable ways on a racetrack.
This is especially notable given that the GVC runs some of the best HPDE on the east coast, including Watkins Glen. This will certainly impact newer BMWs at these events (where BMW typically is well represented). What new BMWs? Most BMWs now have the feature standard but that’s just the start. According to BMW they expect all of their vehicles to have these systems as standard by 2022.
Given the proximity to Woodcliff Lake, BMWNA had participated in some of these track days for marketing purposes in the past.
Here’s the official announcement:
Attention Genesee Valley Chapter HPDE Participants —
As you know, the automotive world is rapidly deploying a variety of safety-related driver aids, and we are heading toward a brave new world of semi- and fully autonomous vehicles. This will undoubtedly be of great benefit to traffic safety, especially given the rise in accident rates attributed to smartphone use. However, some of these new driver aids may adversely impact the use of such vehicles on a racetrack. In particular, cars with “automatic emergency braking” and/or “lane keeping assistance” systems may behave in unpredictable and undesirable ways on a racetrack.
Because there is so much uncertainty about how these systems behave in a variety of conditions, GVC have decided to ban all vehicles equipped with Automatic Emergency Braking and/or Lane Keeping Assistance systems (or their equivalent) for use in our HPDE events, even if these systems may be disabled by the driver.
Please consult your local new car dealership for assistance if you are unsure whether your vehicle is equipped with these collision avoidance systems. If your vehicle is so equipped, your only course of action will be to find another vehicle without said systems to use at the event. Please let us know if you will be driving a different car than the one you chose during registration so we can update your registration profile.
Note: GVC will deny participation, and forfeit the entry fees, of anyone arriving at our events intending to use a car equipped with these systems in the driving school.
For more information, I refer you to the article entitled “Ten Ways to Avoid a Crash” in the April 2016 edition of Consumer Reports. You may also find the following links useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collis...oidance_system http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...t-u-s-vehicles
The day many of us have feared is here. For the first time that we know of a BMWCCA Chapter is banning all cars with collision avoidance systems from track days. more specifically the Genesee Valley Chapter is banning cars with “automatic emergency braking” and/or “lane keeping assistance” systems. This is due to the systems causing cars to behave in unpredictable and undesirable ways on a racetrack.
This is especially notable given that the GVC runs some of the best HPDE on the east coast, including Watkins Glen. This will certainly impact newer BMWs at these events (where BMW typically is well represented). What new BMWs? Most BMWs now have the feature standard but that’s just the start. According to BMW they expect all of their vehicles to have these systems as standard by 2022.
Given the proximity to Woodcliff Lake, BMWNA had participated in some of these track days for marketing purposes in the past.
Here’s the official announcement:
Attention Genesee Valley Chapter HPDE Participants —
As you know, the automotive world is rapidly deploying a variety of safety-related driver aids, and we are heading toward a brave new world of semi- and fully autonomous vehicles. This will undoubtedly be of great benefit to traffic safety, especially given the rise in accident rates attributed to smartphone use. However, some of these new driver aids may adversely impact the use of such vehicles on a racetrack. In particular, cars with “automatic emergency braking” and/or “lane keeping assistance” systems may behave in unpredictable and undesirable ways on a racetrack.
Because there is so much uncertainty about how these systems behave in a variety of conditions, GVC have decided to ban all vehicles equipped with Automatic Emergency Braking and/or Lane Keeping Assistance systems (or their equivalent) for use in our HPDE events, even if these systems may be disabled by the driver.
Please consult your local new car dealership for assistance if you are unsure whether your vehicle is equipped with these collision avoidance systems. If your vehicle is so equipped, your only course of action will be to find another vehicle without said systems to use at the event. Please let us know if you will be driving a different car than the one you chose during registration so we can update your registration profile.
Note: GVC will deny participation, and forfeit the entry fees, of anyone arriving at our events intending to use a car equipped with these systems in the driving school.
For more information, I refer you to the article entitled “Ten Ways to Avoid a Crash” in the April 2016 edition of Consumer Reports. You may also find the following links useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collis...oidance_system http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...t-u-s-vehicles
04-10-2017, 10:51 PM
#36
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This is wrong...
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04-10-2017, 10:53 PM
#37
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But why didn't the manufacturers of these cars anticipate this problem with owners that track? Shouldn't there simply be an off switch for these systems?
04-10-2017, 11:00 PM
#38
I think until the systems are better understood and how to ensure they are disabled that this explicit exclusion is a necessary step. The issue that I see without this exclusion is that it could be problematic to "ask" a driver to disable a safety feature once he/she arrives at a track.
04-10-2017, 11:03 PM
#39
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Can't see that. My 2016 Tahoe is switchable. Has been since these features were introduced.
04-10-2017, 11:28 PM
#40
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What the...
04-11-2017, 07:06 AM
#41
Originally Posted by ProCoach
Can't see that. My 2016 Tahoe is switchable. Has been since these features were introduced.
04-11-2017, 08:10 AM
#42
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The issue I'm seeing here is if someone new to a HPDE event (obviously in Green) has a car equipped with these additional nannies, might not switch them off. The instructor will not tell them to turn them off because of liability issues. ANd yet, if they are left on, then a different set of liability issues crops up for other drivers. So this sets up a catch-22 for the organizers should an incident occur.
Only people already in the advanced/instructor group who are running solo will likely know enough to run a car with these nannies off. And obviously one cannot advance, if one cannot run.
I don't think our region has any restrictions/policies on these cars (yet) but it will only take one major incident for them to be banned.
I would probably require them to run at the back of the pack (at first) and I like the idea of the Big Blue X on the back and a mention of what that means during the drivers' meeting as a stop gap, until we know more and how these control can impact a HPDE session.
Only people already in the advanced/instructor group who are running solo will likely know enough to run a car with these nannies off. And obviously one cannot advance, if one cannot run.
I don't think our region has any restrictions/policies on these cars (yet) but it will only take one major incident for them to be banned.
I would probably require them to run at the back of the pack (at first) and I like the idea of the Big Blue X on the back and a mention of what that means during the drivers' meeting as a stop gap, until we know more and how these control can impact a HPDE session.
04-11-2017, 08:18 AM
#43
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This whole thing is stupid and ill thought out.
All the BMW club needs to do is put a Pro in one of these cars for a few laps will all systems in the default position when the vehicle is turned on, and all systems purposely turned off, to get a sense for the ACTUAL behavior of the vehicle. Then they can deal with FACTS and not FEELINGS.
Geez,,,
All the BMW club needs to do is put a Pro in one of these cars for a few laps will all systems in the default position when the vehicle is turned on, and all systems purposely turned off, to get a sense for the ACTUAL behavior of the vehicle. Then they can deal with FACTS and not FEELINGS.
Geez,,,
04-11-2017, 09:18 AM
#44
Firstly, with regard to liability, I think a waiver would more than suffice to take care of that. You have to acknowledge the difference between driver aids that help bail you out from a lack of skill and those that bail you out from a lack of attention. Nobody should be drinking a latte, doing their makeup, and texting while out on the racetrack. The problems these systems are there to solve should not be present and students should understand and acknowledge that when signing a waiver.
I think the bigger issue is the fact that people will forget to turn it off. Unless there's a fuse specifically for those systems that can be checked at inspection or the cars are equipped with a "sport key" or something that can be put in and left for the whole day, that's going to be an issue.
Otherwise, you simply can't trust people to turn off the systems for every session and if they forget, they won't realize it until the car does something unexpected.
I know this from personal experience. I once forgot to put the car in Sport Plus mode and let me tell you... downshifting for a corner and expecting an auto-rev-match and not getting one will upset the car right quickly!
I think the bigger issue is the fact that people will forget to turn it off. Unless there's a fuse specifically for those systems that can be checked at inspection or the cars are equipped with a "sport key" or something that can be put in and left for the whole day, that's going to be an issue.
Otherwise, you simply can't trust people to turn off the systems for every session and if they forget, they won't realize it until the car does something unexpected.
I know this from personal experience. I once forgot to put the car in Sport Plus mode and let me tell you... downshifting for a corner and expecting an auto-rev-match and not getting one will upset the car right quickly!
04-11-2017, 10:31 AM
#45
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The unique aspect of these systems is the affect they can have on other drivers. As noted above, if I'm third in a close line and the car in the middle has this system and suddenly brakes, I'm ****ed.
That's different from traditional nannies which keep the car on the track, etc. A car not leaving the track or not spinning doesn't have an adverse effect on the trailing car.
I think they are being super conservative here but this is also the only group I know that forbids all convertibles without full cages so not really shocking.
That's different from traditional nannies which keep the car on the track, etc. A car not leaving the track or not spinning doesn't have an adverse effect on the trailing car.
I think they are being super conservative here but this is also the only group I know that forbids all convertibles without full cages so not really shocking.
