z06801

I agree and think there is a big difference between what most of us would participate in PCA and NASA type DEs and these exotic driving deals. I would not be quick to jump in the right seat with someone with little instruction and a feeling if entitlement to beat on a car he just rented for a few laps.

Gofishracing

NASA NE has exotic rides incorporated into their schedule. Chris does a great job. Using best available coaches. Legendaryexoticsnj.com

Slakker

There have been a lot of hours of exotic experience completed without incident. I just think this particular place's attempt to take it the next level with a 1/2 mile straightaway is typical Vegas mentality. But with 2 other full time operators in town they had to have some kind of edge to convince investors it was worth building. Interestingly enough, they are closed today due to "maintenance". So off to one of the others to play in some newer p-cars today.

And as to mglobe's comment on the side topic, MVP is requiring SFI suit, shoes and gloves if you are in a caged race car at this weekends COTA DE.

badabing

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...han-you-think/

ExMB

Interesting they mention Hallett, my home track. I remember when they held that event there as I was asked if I was going to it.

ShakeNBake

These kinds of threads always drive down into a bit of a pit of despair. I feel really bad for the instructor's family. Having recently almost been taken from my family in a car accident (street) recently, I have a tiny bit of empathy - but also, I have a wedge of fear being driven into my resolve in wanting to instruct from the passenger seat. If you stop and consider the scenario you place yourself in, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that you are taking risk. It used to be easy to force myself to not think about it (after taking all reasonable safety precautions, and setting personal rules on the students equipement and behavior)...but now I think about it all the time..especially after events like this one.

Slakker

Spent the morning at Dream Racing in a Cayman GTS , 911S and GT3. What an awesome time. Like EXR, lots of gravel and "safish" run offs. I know these places have their downsides but there is no better way to test drive a car in my opinion. I'm planning to test the GT3RS and 991Cup when I come back in April. The mere fact I have the opportunity to do so is mind boggling to me. I'll post video later in a separate thread.

ProCoach

good lead instructors at both those places.

Nonsequitur

The Las Vegas Review Journal is trying to dig into this incident by assembling the story of what happened and the factors involved. I personally worry that it is too soon to jump to conclusions, but I do have it on good authority that the names referenced in this article are reputable.

Multiple factors contributed to fatal SpeedVegas crash, experts say
<http://www.reviewjournal.com/local/las-vegas/multiple-factors-contributed-fatal-speedvegas-crash-experts-say>

I have respect for the centered and investigated manner used by most everyone in this forum to examine situations and reach conclusions we can then use in our events. I've built a database of racing, experience and club-level HPDE incidents that had fatalities. There are significant differences between them, driven by commercial motivations and event culture, as well as participant skills, expectations, preparation and attitude.

We don't yet know the chain of events in this one, nor solid answers to the questions about the car itself, the circuit barriers, the passenger side brake pedal,...

mark kibort

that's really the meat of it right there. say you jump in and give the guy the pitch , to keep things calm and under control.. You come back after a few laps, you are smiling because you aided in the student's survival........the student is pissed he didnt go faster than he does on his local hyways. There is a distinct conflict of interest of the driver getting his money worth for the thrill ride and the instructor not wanting any thrills.

Manifold

This.

Things go much better when the goals of the student (not simply client) are properly aligned with the goals of the instructor, as is the case with measured and progressive approach taken in well-run DE programs.

Safely driving a car fast requires skill, and skill takes time to develop, as is the case with other sports.

Nonsequitur

Manifold: "Safely driving a car fast requires skill, and skill takes time to develop, as is the case with other sports."

This truthful statement applies across all of life! But back to the important point he was making,...

in HPDE this concept is embraced and often expressed in the word "culture." What are we really doing and why are we doing it? I've found quite a range of encouraged behaviors, tolerated conditions, and explicit rules (with lots of opinions, some of those dated) that can be wrapped by this one word.

When people chat about specific organizations and events there is often too much assumption that we know what is meant by "culture" and the other terms used. And maybe we do know, but I want to find resources and references to help better define the terms and extract factors to differentiate between good, fair, and poor (or some other scale to focus on safety, learning and experience).

I'm looking for ways to tease apart incidents into factors we can discuss and actually use to reach conclusions and generate better safety, improved learning and memorable experiences.

Manifold

The concept of "safety culture" is difficult to pin down precisely, but it's a well established and widely used concept in the safety field. The literature on this topic is very large, but this Wikipedia article is a good place to start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_culture

PLNewman

My wife asked me the other day: "If you could summarize what you do at the track in one word, what would it be? Speed?"

Without hesitation, I answered, "Control."

"Control of the car. Control of myself."

Think back to your early track days...How the car never took the same line on consecutive laps. How there was no consistency in the braking points. How you would get angry and shout at slower drivers who got in your way.

In time, with repetition, we learn control.

The folks who hand over a wad of cash to go fast in a super car for a few laps never get the chance to develop control.

Nonsequitur

[QUOTE=PLNewman;14008324]In time, with repetition, we learn control./QUOTE]
Another life lesson, that not everyone masters.

From Manifold's reply, that WikiPedia piece properly emphasizes "the way we typically do things around here" and that point also seems to be a differentiator between incidents in the record. The challenge for us is to identify what that means for motorsport and then how we work with those factors.