Who was your worst student and what did they do?
03-27-2017, 06:58 PM
#106
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Can I ask why? I think I posted a video in this thread where my instructor told me to stop watching my mirrors but he explicitly said he'd be doing it and let me know if I need to point someone by. He told me to concentrate on my line.
In general though I tend to think people don't look in their mirrors enough and if they're conducting a train in an instructed group, I tend to blame the instructor.
Of course, not knowing what's going on in that car, I also tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, wondering if the instructor already has their hands full just staying on the track and that watching the mirrors is secondary at that point.
In general though I tend to think people don't look in their mirrors enough and if they're conducting a train in an instructed group, I tend to blame the instructor.
Of course, not knowing what's going on in that car, I also tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, wondering if the instructor already has their hands full just staying on the track and that watching the mirrors is secondary at that point.
03-27-2017, 07:03 PM
#107
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03-27-2017, 08:09 PM
#108
Three Wheelin'
03-27-2017, 08:49 PM
#109
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Mine was a little different from others. It was a nice dude in an Advanced group driving an older BMW 325i with a full interior and stock engine, but with a nice aftermarket suspension and on aggressive tires. So the car was rather slow with a ton of grip - you had to really try hard to screw it up. It was his first time at the long Thunderhill 5 Mile track, so I was focusing on the line and markers first. He was learning quickly and was a pleasure to deal with, and picked up more than 10 seconds (it's long track). Awesome student.
Then he learned the line, I noticed he was using the throttle as on/off switch with no care on application and release. So I tried to explain to him that he needs to be more gradual, to which he replied that why should he care if everything is fine with the way he does it. I told him, as gently and respectfully as possible, that this was a bad habit to keep, and that now it's masked by abundant grip and low HP of his car, but when he starts getting closer to the limits of grip and/or gets a higher HP per lb car, it will cost him time.
No matter how carefully I said it, his ego could not handle the idea that he was not driving at knife-edge limit of grip already, and that his car was slow, and that it was masking his mistakes with tons of underutilized grip. He took it very badly and pointed it back at me. Said that I was saying that only because I was driving a fast car, and that fast cars hide mistakes rather than slow cars, and that nannies were saving us when I gave him a ride-along earlier (I keep nannies on when giving ridealongs for liability reasons).
I realized he was not going to learn unless he beleives me. So I told him that for him to learn it's important that he believes me, and I can make him believe but I will do it on his time not mine.
His next track session we go out in my car. First I show him how when braking from 130+MPH missing markers by even a foot results in many tenths lost in just one fast sweeper. He's genuinely surprised that horsepower does not compensate for overslowing the car or compromised turn entry. Now to the main dish - nannies off and rapid lifts when going around the carousel. He is terrified - the 991 GT3's engine is so high rev and high compression that rear wheel practically lock up on lift. In fact, the car has a "nannie" that smoothes throttle lift to avoid that, but that nannie is shut off in "all off" mode. I explain that I was only able to catch the car because I started countersteering simultaneously with the lift - if I was actually reacting, I'd have no chance to keep in on the track. I could see he was starting to see the light. Finally, stomping on the throttle out of turn exit, with wheelspin and countersteering causing us to lose time again.
The demo worked, even though I got a warning from a group chief to not drift. When we got in his car, he was back on track (no pun intended) - listening to me, doing everything very well, and being very respectful and appreciative again. I felt super-proud of the effect my demo ride had. I broke through to him and had the perfect student again.
So I sign him off to go solo on the last session. He did solo on other tracks many times before, and was driving better than most in the Advanced group. He refused because he wanted to drive a perfectly clean session and have me write up what he should work on next based on that - smart, even if more work for me! So we go out.
After 2-3 really good laps, he just turns the wrong way when entering a blind chicane and launches the car into the air off the cambered bank. Luckily, it was a slow car, and he pointed the car straight the last moment, so we did not roll. No injuries, no visible damage to the car. He explained it to me as a brain-fart - he confused left-right sequence with right-left.
But it made me reconsider instructing altogether. I had no reason to be worried and no indication he was red misting or fatigued. He was driving his cleanest laps right before it. So I realized that instructing introduced risks that I could not control or even evaluate sufficiently and stopped doing that.
I still do ride-alongs with someone I know well, but I do not see myself going back to right-seat instruction with car clubs.
Then he learned the line, I noticed he was using the throttle as on/off switch with no care on application and release. So I tried to explain to him that he needs to be more gradual, to which he replied that why should he care if everything is fine with the way he does it. I told him, as gently and respectfully as possible, that this was a bad habit to keep, and that now it's masked by abundant grip and low HP of his car, but when he starts getting closer to the limits of grip and/or gets a higher HP per lb car, it will cost him time.
No matter how carefully I said it, his ego could not handle the idea that he was not driving at knife-edge limit of grip already, and that his car was slow, and that it was masking his mistakes with tons of underutilized grip. He took it very badly and pointed it back at me. Said that I was saying that only because I was driving a fast car, and that fast cars hide mistakes rather than slow cars, and that nannies were saving us when I gave him a ride-along earlier (I keep nannies on when giving ridealongs for liability reasons).
I realized he was not going to learn unless he beleives me. So I told him that for him to learn it's important that he believes me, and I can make him believe but I will do it on his time not mine.
His next track session we go out in my car. First I show him how when braking from 130+MPH missing markers by even a foot results in many tenths lost in just one fast sweeper. He's genuinely surprised that horsepower does not compensate for overslowing the car or compromised turn entry. Now to the main dish - nannies off and rapid lifts when going around the carousel. He is terrified - the 991 GT3's engine is so high rev and high compression that rear wheel practically lock up on lift. In fact, the car has a "nannie" that smoothes throttle lift to avoid that, but that nannie is shut off in "all off" mode. I explain that I was only able to catch the car because I started countersteering simultaneously with the lift - if I was actually reacting, I'd have no chance to keep in on the track. I could see he was starting to see the light. Finally, stomping on the throttle out of turn exit, with wheelspin and countersteering causing us to lose time again.
The demo worked, even though I got a warning from a group chief to not drift. When we got in his car, he was back on track (no pun intended) - listening to me, doing everything very well, and being very respectful and appreciative again. I felt super-proud of the effect my demo ride had. I broke through to him and had the perfect student again.
So I sign him off to go solo on the last session. He did solo on other tracks many times before, and was driving better than most in the Advanced group. He refused because he wanted to drive a perfectly clean session and have me write up what he should work on next based on that - smart, even if more work for me! So we go out.
After 2-3 really good laps, he just turns the wrong way when entering a blind chicane and launches the car into the air off the cambered bank. Luckily, it was a slow car, and he pointed the car straight the last moment, so we did not roll. No injuries, no visible damage to the car. He explained it to me as a brain-fart - he confused left-right sequence with right-left.
But it made me reconsider instructing altogether. I had no reason to be worried and no indication he was red misting or fatigued. He was driving his cleanest laps right before it. So I realized that instructing introduced risks that I could not control or even evaluate sufficiently and stopped doing that.
I still do ride-alongs with someone I know well, but I do not see myself going back to right-seat instruction with car clubs.
03-27-2017, 09:08 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
This wasn't my student but I remember this 'one guy' at NHMS. I believe he had a late model 911. He was very heavy and chain smoked until I told him he couldn't smoke in the garage. There was a large plaque on his dash that said, "THIS CAR IS FAST, ASK YOUR GIRLFRIEND, SHE KNOWS." IIRC, he knew everything and was unhappy about being in the Green group so he left at lunch.
03-27-2017, 10:14 PM
#111
Three Wheelin'
Can I ask why? I think I posted a video in this thread where my instructor told me to stop watching my mirrors but he explicitly said he'd be doing it and let me know if I need to point someone by. He told me to concentrate on my line.
In general though I tend to think people don't look in their mirrors enough and if they're conducting a train in an instructed group, I tend to blame the instructor.
Of course, not knowing what's going on in that car, I also tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, wondering if the instructor already has their hands full just staying on the track and that watching the mirrors is secondary at that point.
In general though I tend to think people don't look in their mirrors enough and if they're conducting a train in an instructed group, I tend to blame the instructor.
Of course, not knowing what's going on in that car, I also tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, wondering if the instructor already has their hands full just staying on the track and that watching the mirrors is secondary at that point.
I generally agree that instructors should not let trains form, but sometimes your hands are tied. Some novices are so slow and timid that there's a train even though you are waiving people by constantly or ducking into the pits.
03-27-2017, 10:44 PM
#112
Now... if it's a solo driver... well... they should know better. Then I just think it's poor form. But if I'm honest... I don't think I've ever had someone hold me up for more than a couple passing zones.
The real issues in the intermediate solo groups seem to be when a train forms up and nobody wants to let anyone by if they feel like they're being held up by the car in front of them.
I've let people by me in the middle of a train when I thought they might be quicker. Seems like the right thing to do. I then went on to pass them after I got through but still... if you know the guy behind you is quicker, even if someone slower is in front of you... don't you let them by?
I understand when they don't. They probably don't realize the person behind them is quicker. It just ends up taking a while to sort itself out when you're the quickest of the group but have to work through a train of 5+ cars.
I guess that's when it's worth just dropping back and enjoying the scenery for a bit.
03-27-2017, 11:04 PM
#113
Drifting
Yeah, this is generally what I assume so while I might be annoyed I'm never angry.
Now... if it's a solo driver... well... they should know better. Then I just think it's poor form. But if I'm honest... I don't think I've ever had someone hold me up for more than a couple passing zones.
The real issues in the intermediate solo groups seem to be when a train forms up and nobody wants to let anyone by if they feel like they're being held up by the car in front of them.
I've let people by me in the middle of a train when I thought they might be quicker. Seems like the right thing to do. I then went on to pass them after I got through but still... if you know the guy behind you is quicker, even if someone slower is in front of you... don't you let them by?
I understand when they don't. They probably don't realize the person behind them is quicker. It just ends up taking a while to sort itself out when you're the quickest of the group but have to work through a train of 5+ cars.
I guess that's when it's worth just dropping back and enjoying the scenery for a bit.
Now... if it's a solo driver... well... they should know better. Then I just think it's poor form. But if I'm honest... I don't think I've ever had someone hold me up for more than a couple passing zones.
The real issues in the intermediate solo groups seem to be when a train forms up and nobody wants to let anyone by if they feel like they're being held up by the car in front of them.
I've let people by me in the middle of a train when I thought they might be quicker. Seems like the right thing to do. I then went on to pass them after I got through but still... if you know the guy behind you is quicker, even if someone slower is in front of you... don't you let them by?
I understand when they don't. They probably don't realize the person behind them is quicker. It just ends up taking a while to sort itself out when you're the quickest of the group but have to work through a train of 5+ cars.
I guess that's when it's worth just dropping back and enjoying the scenery for a bit.
03-27-2017, 11:38 PM
#114
Rennlist Member
Yeah, this is generally what I assume so while I might be annoyed I'm never angry.
Now... if it's a solo driver... well... they should know better. Then I just think it's poor form. But if I'm honest... I don't think I've ever had someone hold me up for more than a couple passing zones.
The real issues in the intermediate solo groups seem to be when a train forms up and nobody wants to let anyone by if they feel like they're being held up by the car in front of them.
I've let people by me in the middle of a train when I thought they might be quicker. Seems like the right thing to do. I then went on to pass them after I got through but still... if you know the guy behind you is quicker, even if someone slower is in front of you... don't you let them by?
I understand when they don't. They probably don't realize the person behind them is quicker. It just ends up taking a while to sort itself out when you're the quickest of the group but have to work through a train of 5+ cars.
I guess that's when it's worth just dropping back and enjoying the scenery for a bit.
Now... if it's a solo driver... well... they should know better. Then I just think it's poor form. But if I'm honest... I don't think I've ever had someone hold me up for more than a couple passing zones.
The real issues in the intermediate solo groups seem to be when a train forms up and nobody wants to let anyone by if they feel like they're being held up by the car in front of them.
I've let people by me in the middle of a train when I thought they might be quicker. Seems like the right thing to do. I then went on to pass them after I got through but still... if you know the guy behind you is quicker, even if someone slower is in front of you... don't you let them by?
I understand when they don't. They probably don't realize the person behind them is quicker. It just ends up taking a while to sort itself out when you're the quickest of the group but have to work through a train of 5+ cars.
I guess that's when it's worth just dropping back and enjoying the scenery for a bit.
As said before, if you're in the middle of a 5+ car train, I think the best move is usually to pit and open up some air. Hopefully, by the time you catch back up to the cause of the train, he's let some of the others by, so you're only looking at a 2-3 car train.
03-27-2017, 11:47 PM
#115
Yeah. There's really no good way for them to sort themselves out once they happen. Just gotta wait it out or pit.
I guess the only thing that should be expected is that the conductor let everyone by all at once if at all possible. Slow down and just keep pointing.
It really hasn't happened often or anything.
I guess the only thing that should be expected is that the conductor let everyone by all at once if at all possible. Slow down and just keep pointing.
It really hasn't happened often or anything.
03-28-2017, 12:27 AM
#116
Thanks for sharing this idea, which I'd never considered. (I just assumed the instructor wasn't doing his/her job.) I'll try to have more patience next time I encounter it.
03-28-2017, 07:19 AM
#117
03-28-2017, 09:37 AM
#118
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03-28-2017, 09:40 AM
#119
Yeah, this is generally what I assume so while I might be annoyed I'm never angry.
Now... if it's a solo driver... well... they should know better. Then I just think it's poor form. But if I'm honest... I don't think I've ever had someone hold me up for more than a couple passing zones.
The real issues in the intermediate solo groups seem to be when a train forms up and nobody wants to let anyone by if they feel like they're being held up by the car in front of them.
I've let people by me in the middle of a train when I thought they might be quicker. Seems like the right thing to do. I then went on to pass them after I got through but still... if you know the guy behind you is quicker, even if someone slower is in front of you... don't you let them by?
I understand when they don't. They probably don't realize the person behind them is quicker. It just ends up taking a while to sort itself out when you're the quickest of the group but have to work through a train of 5+ cars.
I guess that's when it's worth just dropping back and enjoying the scenery for a bit.
Now... if it's a solo driver... well... they should know better. Then I just think it's poor form. But if I'm honest... I don't think I've ever had someone hold me up for more than a couple passing zones.
The real issues in the intermediate solo groups seem to be when a train forms up and nobody wants to let anyone by if they feel like they're being held up by the car in front of them.
I've let people by me in the middle of a train when I thought they might be quicker. Seems like the right thing to do. I then went on to pass them after I got through but still... if you know the guy behind you is quicker, even if someone slower is in front of you... don't you let them by?
I understand when they don't. They probably don't realize the person behind them is quicker. It just ends up taking a while to sort itself out when you're the quickest of the group but have to work through a train of 5+ cars.
I guess that's when it's worth just dropping back and enjoying the scenery for a bit.
Slow ride through the pits will work (at least temporarily) and will keep you calm and focused on something other than than the goof leading the train
Gary
03-28-2017, 09:51 AM
#120
Three Wheelin'
Ideally, there would be 2 green groups - true novice and fast novice, but still needs instruction. The problem with the blue group is that you stop learning just when you need the most instruction. You can't learn when you don't know what you don't know.
Learning the line is a lot easier than learning how to trailbrake in a 911...