TraqGear

MINIMAL protection for the "boys"!

TraqGear

The objective is not melting poly to your skin, which is very possible through the suit. Also, regular cotton can be combustible under the suit in intense heat. Why would you put something flammable on under something fire resistant? There is a reason why the pros are mandated to wear it. Isn't our skin just as important?

tvr-4

Thanks for the education - my question came from genuine ignorance as I wasn't sure if certain types of suit provide sufficient protection and don't need undies while others do.

I have head-to-toe nomex underwear and I'm trying to decide the type of suit to go with... so trying to understand how different pieces of the system work to get the right combination (strong protection without feeling like I'm in a furnace).

So to answer your last question, my skin is THE most important to me, and I appreciate the education to take good care of it :-)

TraqGear

The heat from synthetic fabrics like Nomex is precisely why I created TraqGear. Without going into a commercial...we simply target natural fabrics that breathe and are comfortable in the car, with the added protection of fire resistance and SFI certification.

Ignorance is a strong word...we all start somewhere and learn. Whether HPDE or racing, it is super foreign to people that have never experienced it. I had to learn more than the average participant to do my job propertly and I try and share my findings. I'll add some info on the next post. Have fun, stay safe and enjoy the speed!

TraqGear

Wanted to share a few facts about fire protection guys. Not trying to open a can of worms or get into a big debate...just some things to think about.

Best protection: SFI CERTIFIED: Suit, top and bottom underwear, socks, helmet, hans and balaclava. It using a liquid cooling system, ensure that it is also SFI certified fire resistant.

Cotton Tshirts: Highly flammable and can be combustible under the suit. (few articles on this in Sportscar from guys much smarter than I)

Polyester shirts: Highly meltable. Can melt under the suit without ever compromising the suit, through heat transfer. Bad idea. Must be surgically removed from skin. See testing from SFI blog for technical info.

Poly/cotton blends: Most dangerous and not easily identifiable. They look like your typical cotton t-shirt and are very comfortable. BUT, they are highly flammable AND melt when exposed to heat...worst of both worlds.

Worst protection: Skin. Doesn't last long guys.

Something in between for guys that will not wear a suit: Fire reistant shirt like our Podium models. Will give some protection and best of all, won't catch on fire and continue to burn on your body. Think where "stop, drop and roll" came from...cotton.

So, how much time will fire resistant garments give you in the car in case of fire? THERE IS NO CERTAINTY IN THIS. I would say on average, a good suit should give you 20-30 seconds of time to get out of the car and underwear will add 3 to 6 seconds to that. Without proper underwear, substract 3 to 6 seconds (much less for poly and poly blends). This all depends on the environment...hotter fire equals less time...accelerate like fuel equals less time...winds equals less time, etc. What does this mean? A change in environments might change the time to a 2nd degree burn to 10-15 seconds even with all the right gear. So, heck yeah I want that extra few seconds underwear gives me.

How long does it take you to get out of the car? Pro driver Charles Espenlaub can get out in 5 seconds. He practices all the time. If you don't practice, double or triple that time. Add more time if you catch fire on the straight...you have to stop the car in the safe place to get out. Add more time for creature comforts that must be unplugged, etc.

What about a street car? I would say certainly less likely to catch fire than wheel-to-wheel racing, but it does happen. The biggest issue I see is that most interiors have a large amount of plastic in them (yep even Porsche). What is plastic made from?...petroleum (we stopped getting stuff from rubber trees long ago). So, when it does catch fire, the interior can become an inferno pretty quickly. Ever wonder why you see so much black smoke and hot flame?...it isn't just fuel.

The takeaway: Choose the risks you want to take. You spend $1400 bucks on tires...spend a little on safety. Hopefully, you'll never have to use it.

NEVER WEAR: Shorts and short sleeves. Not only does this look super dorky when you wear nomex gloves and short sleeves (I'm guilty in the past), but exposed skin is the worst if you have even the smallest crash without a fire. I rather have a deep scratch in my sleeve than my forearm. With today's lightweight, moisture wicking garments, there is no reason not to have something on that will give some degree of protection.

tvr-4

Thanks a ton for info, and my apologies to the OP if I'm taking this off track.

cheers, TK

roketman

Safety always looks cool!

996tnz

I always wear nomex socks, gloves and boots when on track. Used to use full nomex longjohns under a treated cotton suit when I had no better suit = really a winter only proposition as so hot. Summer races on the hottest days I'd have a longsleeved nomex top under my treated cotton but leave the longjohn bottoms out, and luckily didn't get called at scrutineering on not having at least two layers of protection. Now with a good 3 layer nomex suit I still wear the nomex top underneath unless it is a hot day, and still wear the nomex bottom on cold days. On hot days I tend to wear a natural silk longjohn bottom instead, as it wears very cool, helps keep my suit a bit less sweaty and also provides (a little) extra fire protection.

For the more scientifically minded, the US Forestry Service tested 5 different underwear materials under a nomex outer (Tests of Undergarments Exposed to Fire - US Forest Service) here:

https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpu...2348dpi300.pdf

Here's one graph from that, looking at heat transmission only. As the paper itself states though, it takes no account of the danger of synthetics melting onto the skin as they used a smooth mechanical test dummy to measure the temps:



Per above, more here: https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpu...2348dpi300.pdf

Based on that and the effects of (non-aramid) melting synthetics, I'm happy to stick with natural materials (hot days) or nomex (cooler days) under my 3-layer suit.

TraqGear

Very nice find! I wished they would have performed their flame tests with different intervals though. 4 seconds isn't much and it is highly unlikely anyone can exit that fast in our situation.

But, look at that data on the polyester. Doesn't take much to melt that stuff, even with just heat and no flame. 10 seconds of exposure with zero flame. That's a huge eye opener.

CCA

According to the chart your silk longjohns have the poorest protection next to bare skin. Wool looks a very good choice. A thin set may not be any hotter than nomex, and does not hold moisture, which is a big plus. - No steam burns! I think treated wool was once the norm for racing undies. I've got 3 sets of FiA undies to get through a race weekend.

TraqGear

You are correct. Nomex does not hold moisture. But, that's because it is a synthetic product. It also does not wick moisture and even when treated so, does a poor job. So, with Nomex your body remains wet with sweat, since it has no absorption capabilities. That's why it is so uncomfortable and does not breathe. The only way to make Nomex breathe is to make it porous, which reduces the thermal protective properties.

For steam burns, I would deduct that having the moisture under your shirt and on your skin as opposed to having it absorbed away from the skin would be an easier scenario for this to occur. However, I've seen no scientific data to back this up. In fact, I've never heard of anyone in racing get burns just from steam. I would assume it's possible.

996tnz

Yes, that why silk is only "a little" added protection under my 3-layer nomex on a hot day - when wool or thick nomex leggings are out of the question.That linked paper makes the point that the main reason wool outscored the tested silk is because the wool fabric was much thicker and heavier (and hotter).

I have suffered on-track heat exhaustion on a motorbike (luckily it only fully hit me as I pitted, but my muscles all went weak and I just about collapsed and vomited - went out and bought perforated leathers straight after), and I've probably got more than half-way to heat exhaustion several times in a car, so body-heat management matters too. If I did more racing and tracking I'd probably look for a coolshirt type setup and wear nomex unders, but for my circumstances, I'm happy with my tradeoffs.

I figure the info on materials will at least encourage DE drivers to look in order at nomex...treated fire-retardant cotton...wool...silk... ahead of pure cotton, and leave all the plastics at home.

Your multiple sets of undies, and even more so, socks, is a good idea as - beyond smell control - it also helps keep them drier. On the nomex steam front, I've always considered wet socks to be the main risk for steam burns as the moisture builds up faster there and could get a bit trapped in by the boots once things get hot enough in a fire. I console myself myself by figuring that by the time the heat has penetrated the boot leather and the boots nomex lining enough to vaporise the water in my nomex socks, the burns to the rest of me will probably hurt long enough to mask the pain of my feet...

bpu699

What do you guys make of the available single layer 2 piece suits available? Apparently can only be washed 4-5 times for someone doing HPDE that's probably good for 2-3 years .

I know its thin material, and rated SF1 only, but has to be better than a shirt and jeans, no?

Usually pretty affordable to, $100 or so new...

tvr-4

Gotta be better than shirt / jeans - is it better than just wearing nomex underwear head to toe and jeans (assuming you would wear standard cotton shirt and underwear under the single layer suit)?

Options are endless so I guess it's what level of risk you are willing to accept / comfortable with vs. the chance of a fire happening and being severe enough to test your gear.

CosmosMpower

Better than nothing but IIRC SF1 only buys you something like 3-5 seconds of burn protection, even Level 5 is only 15 seconds.