View Poll Results: LEVEL OF INTEREST ?
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NEW SPEC CAYMAN CLASS SPC ?
10-20-2015, 07:20 PM
#46
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Agree BFG is another good option. I am told PCA is working on the tire choice, so if anyone has feedback for them send it in.
Of course we'll be looking at PTS for our tire/wheel needs, just like we do in Spec Miata!
Of course we'll be looking at PTS for our tire/wheel needs, just like we do in Spec Miata!
10-20-2015, 07:49 PM
#47
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I personally prefer the stricter rules. It's one of the things I like about SPB, that I know I am driving relatively the same car as my competitors. Any rule that has the word 'open' in it is another source for people to dump money, thereby eroding the 'spec' designation.
As much as the ability to crossover to scca T2 could be beneficial, I would challenge PCA to stay closer to the proposed formula as it aligns with the thinking applied to both SPB and SP996. I for one not want to put wings big wings on the cars or end up with PDK and newer cars in class. That will just turn it into an arms race, which already exists in GTB1
As much as the ability to crossover to scca T2 could be beneficial, I would challenge PCA to stay closer to the proposed formula as it aligns with the thinking applied to both SPB and SP996. I for one not want to put wings big wings on the cars or end up with PDK and newer cars in class. That will just turn it into an arms race, which already exists in GTB1
10-20-2015, 08:19 PM
#48
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The proposed rules are almost a carbon copy of the SP996 rules. How about a combined class for SPC and SP996 Call the class SP4.
This would help the SP996 guys by giving the a larger class and the Caymans would have instant competition. On paper the cars under the proposed rules look very competitive with each other.
This would help the SP996 guys by giving the a larger class and the Caymans would have instant competition. On paper the cars under the proposed rules look very competitive with each other.
10-20-2015, 09:55 PM
#50
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It may end up being a strong class. IMO the build spec is too close to the spec of already established classes. (H, GTB1). I believe it will end up taking cars away from other classes instead of adding to already fairy strong run groups. The idea of a spec tire is nice but in the letter classes Hoosier is pretty much the spec tire already. If the goal is to have cheaper or longer lasting tires, guys will just buy more new sets to gain that edge. Spec racing can end up being one of the most expensive types of racing. Spending a fortune on the crazy little details to gain a small advantage. (low drag wheel bearings, caliper piston springs to draw the pads away from the disc for less drag, expensive "blue printed" engine and transmission builds to gain that little bit of hp). It is very difficult to keep people from spending money on a car. 40k spec miata builds and 70-80k spec boxsters are proof of that.
Close and competitive racing in a fun car is a great reason for spec racing. You can do this with a H or GTB1 class cayman S already though. There isn't a great place to race a 2.7l car so in my opinion that may have been the better choice. SPC would be very similar to spec 996. Kind of an in between class that just waters down entries.
10-20-2015, 10:18 PM
#51
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The proposed rules are almost a carbon copy of the SP996 rules. How about a combined class for SPC and SP996 Call the class SP4.
This would help the SP996 guys by giving the a larger class and the Caymans would have instant competition. On paper the cars under the proposed rules look very competitive with each other.
This would help the SP996 guys by giving the a larger class and the Caymans would have instant competition. On paper the cars under the proposed rules look very competitive with each other.
It may end up being a strong class. IMO the build spec is too close to the spec of already established classes. (H, GTB1). I believe it will end up taking cars away from other classes instead of adding to already fairy strong run groups. The idea of a spec tire is nice but in the letter classes Hoosier is pretty much the spec tire already. If the goal is to have cheaper or longer lasting tires, guys will just buy more new sets to gain that edge. Spec racing can end up being one of the most expensive types of racing. Spending a fortune on the crazy little details to gain a small advantage. (low drag wheel bearings, caliper piston springs to draw the pads away from the disc for less drag, expensive "blue printed" engine and transmission builds to gain that little bit of hp). It is very difficult to keep people from spending money on a car. 40k spec miata builds and 70-80k spec boxsters are proof of that.
Close and competitive racing in a fun car is a great reason for spec racing. You can do this with a H or GTB1 class cayman S already though. There isn't a great place to race a 2.7l car so in my opinion that may have been the better choice. SPC would be very similar to spec 996. Kind of an in between class that just waters down entries.
Close and competitive racing in a fun car is a great reason for spec racing. You can do this with a H or GTB1 class cayman S already though. There isn't a great place to race a 2.7l car so in my opinion that may have been the better choice. SPC would be very similar to spec 996. Kind of an in between class that just waters down entries.
I think I can speak for quite a few Specbox guys who have been thinking... what next? SPB, like SP2, has big fields, close competition, and a great group of drivers. But if one wants a little more speed, more grip, and an LSD... well, most of the options look either cost prohibitive (GTB1 or GTC3 for instance) or fields are often too small at many races (i.e. G, H, I). Moving to E or F is a bit lateral.
10-20-2015, 11:09 PM
#52
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Tire choice on the car will be an important part of how you control costs as you pointed out Cory. In SPB however with the RR, what we have found is that a newer tire is not necessarily better. Many track records in SPB have been set on high heat cycle tires. My WGI record was on the 19th heat cycle. I have many times seen guys put stickers on their SPB and watched them go backwards in the time sheets. Also, the RR is so cheap on the SPB (around $1k for a set) coupled with the contingency that tires in SPB is almost a non issue today.
The other stuff will happen, but I think that's independant of spec racing. I know of a few H cars (one is a cayman) that don't really meet the spirit of the rules. That's racing unfortunately and a little stupid in club racing, but what can do?
The other stuff will happen, but I think that's independant of spec racing. I know of a few H cars (one is a cayman) that don't really meet the spirit of the rules. That's racing unfortunately and a little stupid in club racing, but what can do?
10-21-2015, 01:53 AM
#53
The proposed rules are almost a carbon copy of the SP996 rules. How about a combined class for SPC and SP996 Call the class SP4.
This would help the SP996 guys by giving the a larger class and the Caymans would have instant competition. On paper the cars under the proposed rules look very competitive with each other.
This would help the SP996 guys by giving the a larger class and the Caymans would have instant competition. On paper the cars under the proposed rules look very competitive with each other.
This will largely attract the same person that would have otherwise been looking at jumping into SP996, so if this begins to take off, I see it coming largely at the expense of growing SP996 fields, which is a shame.
10-21-2015, 08:50 AM
#54
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Tire choice on the car will be an important part of how you control costs as you pointed out Cory. In SPB however with the RR, what we have found is that a newer tire is not necessarily better. Many track records in SPB have been set on high heat cycle tires. My WGI record was on the 19th heat cycle. I have many times seen guys put stickers on their SPB and watched them go backwards in the time sheets. Also, the RR is so cheap on the SPB (around $1k for a set) coupled with the contingency that tires in SPB is almost a non issue today.
The other stuff will happen, but I think that's independant of spec racing. I know of a few H cars (one is a cayman) that don't really meet the spirit of the rules. That's racing unfortunately and a little stupid in club racing, but what can do?
The other stuff will happen, but I think that's independant of spec racing. I know of a few H cars (one is a cayman) that don't really meet the spirit of the rules. That's racing unfortunately and a little stupid in club racing, but what can do?
The idea of combining sp996 with spc might be a good choice. A stripped out first gen cayman with some aero would be fun for sure, but now you are looking an awful lot like a gtb1 car. The only difference is tires. There is no perfect solution. I just personally hate to see even more classes with few car counts.
10-21-2015, 09:01 AM
#55
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How many of you commenting on this thread are running H or I cars? I'm lucky if I have two cars to race against and now we'll have people going into SPC instead? I appreciate your saying this is so very awesome but it isn't for us with cars that will have to change to fit into another class.
How about changing the GTB1 rules so that Gen1 Caymans can be competitive in that class? Currently you can't strip a Gen1 down enough to make weight.
It would have been nice for PCA to put out the proposed SPC rules before implementation so that there could be greater comment. Not a fan.
I'm resigned to the fact that I will probably be in GTB1 in 2017. Maybe they can make some changes by then to make us more competitive.
How about changing the GTB1 rules so that Gen1 Caymans can be competitive in that class? Currently you can't strip a Gen1 down enough to make weight.
It would have been nice for PCA to put out the proposed SPC rules before implementation so that there could be greater comment. Not a fan.
I'm resigned to the fact that I will probably be in GTB1 in 2017. Maybe they can make some changes by then to make us more competitive.
10-21-2015, 10:28 AM
#56
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The rules are CURRENTLY up for discussion as of Oct 15. PCA is asking or feedback by Nov 1, so they can finalize by Nov 15. If you have feedback send it to crrules@pca.org because they are not reading any of this discussion.
I don't think mixing SP996 is the right call for a spec class. Too much disparity there.
I do agree the goal is to not dilute other classes, HOWEVER if there are a handful of similar classes with poor turnout, it would make sense to draw those racers to SPC. I was intrigued by GTB1 until I read the rules and they appear to be very costly to prep for.
SCCA has the same problem - too many classes with 2-3 cars in them. Their two spec classes, SM and SRF, have the biggest fields and best competition.
I don't think mixing SP996 is the right call for a spec class. Too much disparity there.
I do agree the goal is to not dilute other classes, HOWEVER if there are a handful of similar classes with poor turnout, it would make sense to draw those racers to SPC. I was intrigued by GTB1 until I read the rules and they appear to be very costly to prep for.
SCCA has the same problem - too many classes with 2-3 cars in them. Their two spec classes, SM and SRF, have the biggest fields and best competition.
10-21-2015, 01:40 PM
#57
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Do they make a RR in '18in? What H cars are you referring too? The current competitive stock class car's have evolved far beyond a "drive to the track" class. "stock" cars are far from stock now days as we all know.
The idea of combining sp996 with spc might be a good choice. A stripped out first gen cayman with some aero would be fun for sure, but now you are looking an awful lot like a gtb1 car. The only difference is tires. There is no perfect solution. I just personally hate to see even more classes with few car counts.
The idea of combining sp996 with spc might be a good choice. A stripped out first gen cayman with some aero would be fun for sure, but now you are looking an awful lot like a gtb1 car. The only difference is tires. There is no perfect solution. I just personally hate to see even more classes with few car counts.
I hate to see more classes to. I believe PCA has seen the fracturing of classes from the last 20+ years and they are now trying to move to better racing through the creation of the spec classes hoping to drive people to them and then shut down some of the other classes. Not only is this better for them (by making the job maintaining control of the rules and regs easier) and long term better for the racers with better competition. Just my speculation.
I do feel sorry for those who do currently race in small classes. Having said that, when I wanted to go club racing, I started by looking at where there where bigger or growing class sizes and then purchased the car to fit it, not the other way around. I am surprised when I hear people do it the other way because ultimately it could lead to this very problem. I get people either like or feel passionate about driving certain cars or models when they race, but I came to race not drive my favorite car. I can't tell you I love the way a SPB drives or the lack of power, but I do love we racing we have in the class and that Is primarily why I could support the creation of a class like this.
10-21-2015, 02:29 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by mmuller
Having said that, when I wanted to go club racing, I started by looking at where there where bigger or growing class sizes and then purchased the car to fit it, not the other way around. I am surprised when I hear people do it the other way because ultimately it could lead to this very problem.
Having a blast, not looking to change cars anytime soon.
Besides, I don't think I could fit in the Cayman 😂
Last edited by linzman; 10-21-2015 at 02:46 PM.
10-21-2015, 02:57 PM
#59
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10-21-2015, 03:24 PM
#60
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The rules are CURRENTLY up for discussion as of Oct 15. PCA is asking or feedback by Nov 1, so they can finalize by Nov 15. If you have feedback send it to crrules@pca.org because they are not reading any of this discussion.
I don't think mixing SP996 is the right call for a spec class. Too much disparity there.
I do agree the goal is to not dilute other classes, HOWEVER if there are a handful of similar classes with poor turnout, it would make sense to draw those racers to SPC. I was intrigued by GTB1 until I read the rules and they appear to be very costly to prep for.
SCCA has the same problem - too many classes with 2-3 cars in them. Their two spec classes, SM and SRF, have the biggest fields and best competition.
I don't think mixing SP996 is the right call for a spec class. Too much disparity there.
I do agree the goal is to not dilute other classes, HOWEVER if there are a handful of similar classes with poor turnout, it would make sense to draw those racers to SPC. I was intrigued by GTB1 until I read the rules and they appear to be very costly to prep for.
SCCA has the same problem - too many classes with 2-3 cars in them. Their two spec classes, SM and SRF, have the biggest fields and best competition.
Interesting to note - I went on to Rennpoints and found the following individual driver participation for each class this past year:
SPB - boatload
SP1, SP2, and SP3 - boatload
SP911 - 15
SP996 - 14
H - 29
I - 14
Are the 911 and 996 becoming too valuable to race? Why is participation low in those classes? Why will SPC be different? Why wouldn't someone who wants spec racing just go into SPB?
Questions....questions....questions.