MikeJim

Chin Motorsports tells instructors they can drive a student's car "for a few laps if requested," but an instructor may not ask to drive the car.

Last weekend at Road Atlanta, an instructor wadded up a student's car at a Hooked on Driving event.

Most PCA clubs DO NOT ALLOW instructors to sit left seat in a student's car.

So I was surprised by the memo I got today from New Jersey PCA regarding next weekend's event at VIR.

"We REQUIRE that instructors drive ALL students’ Porsches for the first two laps in all instructed run groups. This is to allow an experienced Porsche driver to evaluate the driving condition of your Porsche both for safety reasons and as an aid to instructing you."

"Entrants assume all risk of damage to their Porsche during the event. This includes the times when an instructor is driving your Porsche. Because you are assuming the risk, it is your right to be satisfied with the manner in which the instructor drives your Porsche."


Hey, I love driving other guys' cars. But REQUIRING a student to allow someone else to get behind the wheel worries me almost as much as insisting you CAN'T DRIVE a student's track car. Giving a demonstration ride at 70% can be a VALUABLE LEARNING TOOL. So what's the perfect compromise?

jcastle

I like this idea. There is no way to take all risk out of HPDE. One would assume that the risk of an instructor wadding up a car is much less than an inexperienced student wadding up their car. It also allows you to discuss the line, track conditions, braking points, danger zones, tire or car setup issues, etc Then the instructor can reinforce while the student drives. I know I've learned a lot while riding along with a more experienced/pro driver.

jdistefa

I'm generally not comfortable coaching in a car that I haven't carefully eyeballed and driven. These blanket policies, all one way or the other, seem rather silly. Can't the student and coach figure it out re. their mutual preferences?

Coloradoheel

We always drive the first few laps. I like it because I want to feel how the car handles and responds on the track. Also a great opportunity to demonstrate proper technique.
I've also gone back to the left seat mid-day or next day if student is having a particularly tough time applying what I've demonstrated and discussed.
All of this is done at no more than 60% - 70% (any more and it's too much for the rookie to take in - also may encourage them to push the car too much).
I don't think I've ever heard it listed as a requirement though.

What kind of instructor wads the student's car? Bad form.

If your student wants a taste of what is possible, and it is permissible by your club, you put the student in the right seat of your car.

baddogz28

I've only ever let one other person drive my 997, and that was on the way to the track and a very close friend. Zero chance I'd let someone, instructor or not, drive it on track.

docwyte

No way I want to drive the students car. While I'd be going quite a bit slower than my normal pace, weird things can still happen and I don't want to be put in that situation.

If I want to show the student turn in points etc, I ask them to take a ride with me in my car.

Dr911

Agree w OP needs to be a balance.
Maybe good idea for instructor to drive in paddock rather than taking students car straight to grid.
FWIW my Lockton HPDE coverage includes instructors driving my car.

Coochas

Given this policy from NJ PCA, I am officially volunteering myself to instruct anyone who brings a 918 to an event.

Matt Romanowski

If you can't drive a car safely at a green group pace, you shouldn't be an instructor.

Horus2000

I blame my very first instructor for ALL of this. He was a very hard charger - Irish dude that used to rally. Well, he was constantly pressing me to go faster ("moooor powuuur, moooor powuuur, now AAALLLL the powuuuur") but I was scared out of my wits that my stock, base model Boxster couldn't handle it.

At the end of the 1st day he offered to take me out in the yellow run group in my own car with me riding shotgun. After the 1st two laps I resigned myself to the fact that he was going to ball up my car, most likely rolling it. I sturdied myself and thought, 'well, i hope insurance pays for it, but I'm not going to be a chicken and ask him to slow down."

It was two laps later as he was passing a 996 turbo that it clicked. He knew exactly what he was doing, where the car was going and what it was doing. I really got it then and I was absolutely amazed at his ability to control the car. He explained on the cool down "do you understand now that this car is MUCH faster than you?" It was an incredible learning experience. At that time I honestly couldn't comprehend being able to drive that well - and he was going 7/10. I also had a new found respect for my Boxster.

That type of instructing is not for everyone. Many people would have packed up and not come back the next day. (I actually heard a rumor that eventually he was restricted from coaching green students - but can't confirm that.) But I was absolutely hooked. I don't think it would have been the same riding in his car. He taught me what MY car could do with a competent driver. He is to this day the best instructor I've ever had, and I've had more exceptional instructors than I can count.

So, it's all his fault, this addiction that's sucked my wallet dry. I've got 3 race cars and I've sold all of my Porsche street cars because driving sports cars on the street was just too boring. On occasion, I still hear him screaming into the headset, MOOOR POWUUUR.

MikeJim

Amen, Matt.

AudiOn19s

Nnjr's policy is supposed to be a secondary check beyond the tech inspection for the instructor to feel out the car to make sure it's safe and to slowly show them around the track. They only do it in the lower run groups, only for a couple of laps and only at a reduced pace.

First time I did read the policy I didn't get it. But after doing numerous events with them I totally understand.

As Matt stated if you are driving hard enough for something to happen durring this drill you completely missed the point.

sbelles

I don't have a problem driving student's cars but I keep it to 7-8 10ths. Unless he had a mechanical, there is no excuse for balling up a student's car. I agree, there shouldn't be absolutes but I think it's a good policy. It's nice to know how the car handles before pushing a student and I think it sets the correct tone for the weekend. If you are a new student and you don't feel comfortable that an instructor can keep your car safe from the left seat, how can you feel comfortable that they will keep you safe from the right.

werks

Agreed.

I instruct with HOD here in N. CA and while it is recommended that instructors with A level student (first timers) drive their cars to show them the lines for the first 2 laps of the first session of the day, it is not mandatory. If an instructor does not feel comfortable doing so, they can opt out and if the student does not fell comfortable with an instructor driving their car for any reason they can also opt out. So to be clear it is not mandatory, it is recommended.

Now having said that when we drive a students car we typically drive the car at about a 40% pace, these are first time drivers so the intention is not to get them on track and scare them, driving at an 80%+ pace with a first time student is absurd and is not going to teach them anything and more than likely will only encourage them to over drive the car (for their skill level) attempting to replicate us when they get in it instead of gradually building up their pace. The intention of us driving is to show them the school lines, point out where the flag stations are, give them an idea of brake markers and how to brake, point out turn in points & apex's, and in general give them the opportunity to feel how the car flows around the track when driven properly. None of that requires a car be driven anywhere near it's limits and to hear that an instructor even damaged let alone "wadded up" a students car at an HOD event is frankly shocking. Is it possible that some type of mechanical failure was possibly the cause?

dntlvet

I am happy to let someone else drive my car provided they will guarantee to cover the risk of damage they cause. I do understand the vehicle dynamics are best understood in the driver's seat; but I have had several instructors help me with no experience in my car previously.