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Old 06-05-2013, 11:40 AM   #16
MJR911
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Welll said Glen. While I blieve that Sean's heart is in the right place, writing specific rules for such something that is truly "no two instances are ever the same" doesn't make sense to me.

If you want more strict passing guidelines, go run DE.

No matter how much I may be miffed at a steward decision, and I've had a 13/13 myself, I remember that pretty much everyone is a volunteer and doing their best. Give 'em a break.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:44 AM   #17
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the issue as i see it is that there are a lot of racers out there that are operating under a wrong set of principles guiding their behavior - we've all seen it
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean F View Post
Only goal here is to show the committee that a large number of us want to start a dialogue on getting rules published
Fair enough.

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Old 06-05-2013, 11:56 AM   #19
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There is no way I want my name in a list/petition that any steward may take issue with...
I doubt any Steward would be unhappy about me because I want a clear rule. I think the point here is to have a clear rule, not necessarily a stricker rule.

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Old 06-05-2013, 12:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
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the issue as i see it is that there are a lot of racers out there that are operating under a wrong set of principles guiding their behavior - we've all seen it
True dat.

And that's why I want to see careful, considered and informed conversations occur between seasoned competitors (from venues within and outside PCA Club Racing), CI's and professional coaches with the stewards group as a way to go forward...
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:24 PM   #21
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Only goal here is to show the committee that a large number of us want to start a dialogue on getting rules published
I am wondering why you didn't just ask instead of starting a petition. Or, better yet, send in a rules proposal. A petition??

I absolutely disagree with your position that the rules are not consistently enforced. You have a right of appeal. I have seen every appeal for the last 7 years or so. A very small number of people are involved. The outcome of all of those appeals has been very consistent. They are used in conferences to help all of our Stewards stay on the same page.

I actually have thought several times we should put the rules in the book. They are so simple that it gets overlooked. The rules have been talked about for years in print. I personally wrote 4 years of columns describing many scenarios when I was Chief National Steward. But, you know that. They are gone over at every Orientation Meeting. But, you know that. I and others have included them in drivers meetings from time to time.

The car making a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.

The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.

Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.

The rest is just common sense like. On a straight a blocking maneuver that results in contact is going to receive a 13-13. Driving errors like a money shift, loss of control, spinning, etc that result in damage to other cars are going to earn a 13-13.

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Old 06-05-2013, 12:34 PM   #22
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Thanks for joining the conversation Bryan. I have asked several times during the rules proposal periods over the years as have others. The petition was simply a way to show that racers care about this.

I imagine you won't want to get in to a dialogue about a specific situation, but there is another thread right now were this incident is being discussed.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

Specifically, why no 13 was issued
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean F View Post
Thanks for joining the conversation Bryan. I have asked several times during the rules proposal periods over the years as have others. The petition was simply a way to show that racers care about this.

I imagine you won't want to get in to a dialogue about a specific situation, but there is another thread right now were this incident is being discussed.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

Specifically, why no 13 was issued
Simple,
The Steward chose not to...
I am glad the Stewards have this option.
Seems alot better than them both getting one and being sent home.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:49 PM   #24
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We're just looking for some consistency in the enforcement. Seems to me like it's been very arbitrary of late.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:04 PM   #25
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There seems to be a bit more conversation about expectations regarding punishment than about the continuous development of a commonly desired racing culture.

I have not done a lot of club races, especially in the past few years. The last one I did was at RR IV. I felt that PCA did an excellent job, which I fully appreciated. However I did witness some folks blatantly disregarding the stewards.

I have been racing a Porsche for about 15 years. I suspect that by now PCA has sanctioned quite a few races. Quite a few. I have read many of the PCA Club Racing articles published from time to time, and have found them informative.

I have been responsible for writing rules for an all-Porsche racing group for 10+ years. Right after we started, one of our veteran drivers/stewards created a document called "Guidelines for Racing." It is an Appendix in the rules and hasn't changed since it was added. It is available for download and review as an example if you want to have a look.

That being said, we still have situations and incidents that require communication and clarification. This is ongoing.

We do not have a 13-13 rule.

Our scope is much smaller than that governed by the PCA. We have probably had <100 unique racers in our 10+ seasons, and have raced at less than a half dozen tracks. But again, we have found discussions about this stuff to be an ongoing process.

I agree with Peter about communication.

And of course internet forums can be great, but I suspect that the fat part of the Club Racing participant curve is not active on forums. So I'd guess that nothing beats in-person communication.

Even our super small group is sometimes challenged by this. We have occasionally had to have mandatory Friday evening meetings on this topic during the past 10 seasons, because driver's meetings don't always provide the right amount of time and focus.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan_H View Post
The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.
This basically gives the lead car permission to chop the front off a car that has overlap, even 95% overlap, but is not even. If there is contact initiated by the lead car turning into the apex, the passing car is given the 13-13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan_H View Post
Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.
How does that first sentence apply to the lead car? You just said in the first paragraph above that the lead car has the corner if there is not 100% overlap. The first paragraph says the lead car does not have to leave racing room.

Basically, that first paragraph says if you don't have full overlap, you don't deserve any racing room and will be penalized if the lead car hits you going to the apex.

How do you reconcile that?

Scott

Last edited by winders; 06-05-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahler9th View Post
There seems to be a bit more conversation about expectations regarding punishment than about the continuous development of a commonly desired racing culture.

I have not done a lot of club races, especially in the past few years. The last one I did was at RR IV. I felt that PCA did an excellent job, which I fully appreciated. However I did witness some folks blatantly disregarding the stewards.

I have been racing a Porsche for about 15 years. I suspect that by now PCA has sanctioned quite a few races. Quite a few. I have read many of the PCA Club Racing articles published from time to time, and have found them informative.

I have been responsible for writing rules for an all-Porsche racing group for 10+ years. Right after we started, one of our veteran drivers/stewards created a document called "Guidelines for Racing." It is an Appendix in the rules and hasn't changed since it was added. It is available for download and review as an example if you want to have a look.

That being said, we still have situations and incidents that require communication and clarification. This is ongoing.

We do not have a 13-13 rule.

Our scope is much smaller than that governed by the PCA. We have probably had <100 unique racers in our 10+ seasons, and have raced at less than a half dozen tracks. But again, we have found discussions about this stuff to be an ongoing process.

I agree with Peter about communication.

And of course internet forums can be great, but I suspect that the fat part of the Club Racing participant curve is not active on forums. So I'd guess that nothing beats in-person communication.

Even our super small group is sometimes challenged by this. We have occasionally had to have mandatory Friday evening meetings on this topic during the past 10 seasons, because driver's meetings don't always provide the right amount of time and focus.
Excellent post!

Download link? Always interested in learning more...
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:20 PM   #28
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You can download the NASA Porsche Racing Challenge Series rules from either the NASA web site or the PRC web site: www.prc-racing.com.

These rules point to aspects of the PCA Club Racing Rules and the NASA Club Codes and Regulations (CCR). The Guidelines for Racing Appendix was written by our current Chief Steward, who has been racing since 1965 or so. These Guidelines work in conjunction with the NASA CCR rule set.

Again, in my experience, dealing with all of this is an ongoing process, and since it involves humans, it cannot be perfect.

By the way, our Chief Steward has also been the Race Director for a number of NASA 25 hour races. I am sure that is an interesting responsibility.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:56 PM   #29
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I signed it, can we do one for passenger seats and remote reservoir shocks to really **** Bryan off?
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
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There is no way I want my name in a list/petition that any steward may take issue with...
this is a smart man. like sending a pissed off letter to OBama and wondering why you got your tax return audited 3 years in a row!!!
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:00 PM
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