Dry Sump Kit for M96 and M97 engines - Rennlist Discussion Forums



Dry Sump Kit for M96 and M97 engines

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-23-2013, 09:00 AM   #1
Paul 996
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Paul 996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,945
Default Dry Sump Kit for M96 and M97 engines

My sponsor SportsCarShop is putting together a prototype belt driven dry sump for me. He will be sorting things out on either a Spec Boxster and/or Cayman S race car.

What is the interest level here on something like this?

To be sold as a kit for your shop to install or installed by SportsCarShop in Virginia. Basically it is not for your "average" DIYer.

For discussion sake let's say this costs a little more than double what you would pay for an Accusump and would likely include enhanced oil cooling.

This application uses the pulley location for the AC so for a street application you lose AC. More intended for dedicated track cars / race cars.

For PCA Club Racing the rules would need to be adjusted to allow for additional methods of protecting the engine instead of simply naming the Accusump. This solution is not designed to increase HP on M96/M97 engines and actually robs a small amount of HP needed to turn the Oil Pump. This is purely for providing additional oil scavenging and delivery of a steady pressured stream of cooled oil.

Have any of you tried this already? I need a solution.

Last edited by Paul 996; 05-23-2013 at 12:36 PM.
Paul 996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 09:48 AM   #2
Paul 996
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Paul 996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,945
Default

I submitted my idea to PCA CR Rules. Hoping to be able to add something like this to my car to finally solve the oil starvation issues inherent in the M96/M97 engines.

Has no one here considered this or done this? Looking for ideas. I have looked at what L&N has, the German outfit TTC, etc. It seems like all try to address the scavenge issue in the heads but the oil supply is still potentially compromised and we have to rely on a wide flat oil pan to supply the oil from. An external oil supply tank would certainly solve that no?
Paul 996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 09:58 AM   #3
jdistefa
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
jdistefa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Onterrible
Posts: 6,373
Default

Paul,

Timely topic. We're just rebuilding my SPB motor prior to the Glen. I've personally torn down 2 of these motors and my wrench has done an additional 2. All show the same pattern of oil starvation related damage to rod & main bearings and journals, in addition to IMS surfaces.

We're pulling out all the stops with all the latest LN bits and an external oil cooler but I think with the fundamental design issues in this motor it's just a matter of time..... Our approach is going to be annual tear downs to get ahead of potential grenades.

Interested in what you're doing and how PCA responds
jdistefa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:08 AM   #4
Paul 996
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Paul 996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,945
Default

Matt,

Thanks. Didn't know you just lost a motor too. Would love to share notes with you. And I am not the mechanic just the parrot of what I hear when I ask the questions and then subsequently pays the bill.


I know some folks swear by the Accusump but then many shops/mechanics are against it.
Paul 996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:24 PM   #5
flatsixforme
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
flatsixforme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 761
Default

Interested in this potential solution/outcome with the rules. I'm about to start building my spec boxster and have spent countless hours reading on what "fixes" make these engines reliable in a race setting. As I think we all know, there is no perfect solution. At least for now, what my research into all this has lead me to are the following upgrades:

1. EBS X51 style baffle
2. External oil cooler with fan pack instead of the "S" oil cooler
3. LN IMS bearing
4. Motul 8100 5w40
5. 3rd radiator

My thinking, or really my hope is that by curing the oil temperature issue with the oil cooler it will have a postiive effect elsewhere in the engine. Cooler oil means it will be more viscous which will keep oil pressure higher. Cooler oil is less prone to airation (at least from what most of the information I have found says...there are some conflicting opinions on this) which will put less strain on the AOS and allow the oil pickup to not suck as much air. All this still leaves starvation issues so I guess the kind of oil and EBS baffle are the two "fixes" for that. I've considered the deep sump but am not convinced that anything but the high end LN product recently released will have a significant impact.

Would love to get the thoughts of people currently racing these engines.

Adam
flatsixforme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:28 PM   #6
MUSSBERGER
uninformed gas bag
(contemplating on whether gas bag is one or two words)
Rennlist Member
 
MUSSBERGER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Down on Penny's farm
Posts: 17,276
Default

MUSSBERGER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:47 PM   #7
eric523
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
eric523's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 633
Default

Interested to see how it goes. I've purchased a few external pumps and have played around with mounting them in the same location. Thoughts from the pump manufacturer was that the stock belt style might slip at higher RPMs and cause issues.
Then there is the issue of where to mount the tank, how it will fit in each other persons car depending on equipment and roll cage design, so we kind of set the project to the side. My motor has been going through the ringer with slicks and good speeds without any visible damage so far. Time will tell, but the $$ spent building a system was starting to outweigh the cost of a spare motor.
eric523 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 07:13 PM   #8
jdistefa
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
jdistefa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Onterrible
Posts: 6,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUSSBERGER View Post
Will be using the new deep sump kit from LNE (no affiliation). Bodymotion appears similar, although it looks like it still has rubber/synthetic baffle doors. IMHO I prefer the nascar style hinged aluminum doors... and so does my wrench


Quote:
Originally Posted by flatsixforme View Post
1. EBS X51 style baffle
2. External oil cooler with fan pack instead of the "S" oil cooler
3. LN IMS bearing
4. Motul 8100 5w40
5. 3rd radiator
Yup... plus the lower temp thermostat, drain plug magnet, and filtermag on the oil filter. We change the oil and filter every 2 track days.
jdistefa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 07:59 PM   #9
Gary R.
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Gary R.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Woodbury, CT
Posts: 14,419
Default

Paul, why wouldn't they use an electric pump so there is no extra drain on HP?
Gary R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 08:24 PM   #10
eric523
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
eric523's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 633
Default

electronics still drain power by way of the alternator, so there is no free power on the vehicle really.
eric523 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 11:06 PM   #11
Gary R.
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Gary R.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Woodbury, CT
Posts: 14,419
Default

Parasitic draw from a belt driven pump vs. amp draw would be a big difference, no?
Gary R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 11:50 PM   #12
Ernie J
User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oakville Ontario Canada
Posts: 520
Default

You ,guys should check out Mantissport's deep sump. They have been racing since 2006 a cayman, the latest version is more advanced that LN's 2 qt sump and has more ground clearance. DFI sump extension also available at much lower cost.
Ernie J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 12:16 AM   #13
Gary R.
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Gary R.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Woodbury, CT
Posts: 14,419
Default

That's what i would look at....
Gary R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 12:38 AM   #14
txhokie4life
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
txhokie4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,500
Default

For better or worse an electric scavenge pump would be constant rpm

No belt alignment issues

Could be placed wherever

I've thought of mounting an oil cooler in the rear trunk area to cut down on plumbing
And pressure drops.

I gave up on my boxster track car when the rsr fell into my hands

Mike
txhokie4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2013, 10:00 AM   #15
Paul 996
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
Paul 996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,945
Default

The electric oil pump was my original idea as a way to scavenge both heads and simply return the oil into the stock sump. This was kinda cost effective. Once we started talking about that my mechanic came up with a belt driven system that is used on a number of other applications to dry sump.

I am still waiting on any form of comment back from PCA.

The fallback is easy to go back to the electric scavenge pump.

My understanding from the folks that rebuild the engines is that they have to make modifications to the crankshaft clearances to improve oiling to the main bearings. I have heard this at 4 places now as the ultimate cause of the main bearing failures.

I'll keep sharing what I learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary R. View Post
Paul, why wouldn't they use an electric pump so there is no extra drain on HP?
Paul 996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
:: EBS Racing :: Do You Need A Better Oil Sump Baffle? jon@ebsracing.com 996 Forum 1 03-17-2017 05:31 PM
2004 Porsche Boxster 986 Ex Grand-Am Racecar Q3 autosport Vehicle Marketplace 4 08-30-2012 12:35 AM
Oil starvation problem at high rpm Nicole 928 Forum 112 04-27-2010 01:22 AM


Tags
02, 911, bearing, boxster, buy, case, dry, engine, infared, kit, m96, oil, sc, sump, temperature

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 01:54 AM.


Copyright ę 1998 - 2015 Rennlist.com
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
What's your question?
Send