zedcat

Looking for some sage advice....I have a Cayman R and am installing GT2 sport buckets. Also planning to add a roll bar (probably Hergesheimer). I want to use the Schroth GT3 6 pt harness but not sure about HANS. If I go with the HANS style harness with 2in shoulder strap is there any issue with using those without HANS device? is it just a comfort matter? This is for DE events. Thanks

zedcat

Well, I continued searching after this post and found the same question from about a year ago. Not total consensus but most said don't use 2in without HANS. Also apparantly it's ok to use HANS with the 3 in belts. So I'll probably go with 3in belts. Any new or additional views welcome. Thanks

Skypalace

I've run a HANS since 2000 and 95% of the cars I've been in have 3" belts and it's not a problem.

The only real issue is that the old Hans device, without the lip, allows the belt to slip over the edge while tightening the belts if it's not watched for, the 2" is a little better. That's why it was created, it's not a comfort matter, with the belt over the HANS you won't notice any difference between the two. All the force on the top of your shoulders is from the HANS itself, there are some various padding choices. I run my belts very tight, I wiggle and thrash around in the seat while tightening, with both hands yanking on each belt, I do not want to move around at all in the car, and don't want the HANS rotating forward on my shoulders.

Make sure that the belts are attached properly, you need them angled inward from the seat to the roll bar behind, can use either zip ties or even cross (if shorter space) to do so. Any decent race shop selling the harness and/or the HANS will be able to talk you through it.

My favorite HANS is the Sport II, rounded profile means less hang-ups on entry and exit (both in enduro driver changes, and emergency egress) and the lip to seat the belt is notably more pronounced. A little heavier than the Pro carbon, but the weight is on your shoulders so isn't noticed. It's still lighter than my original all carbon HANS from 2000.

DCP

Just sharing a personal observation. I have the 2 inch Schroth belts in my car, but I put lower cost G-Force 3 inch belts on the passenger side. I've spend a fair amount of time in the passenger seat while good drivers have been trying to show me how things are done. Perhaps the HANS design has improved over time (I have a Sport 2), but I have had no difficulty at all using the HANS and the 3 inch belts.

zedcat

Thanks for the replies. very helpful. I'm going to go with 3in belts. Have also located the FIA document on set up. I plan to do the install myself, but will get it checked/ inspected before use. Thanks again.

dan212

Honestly, if you are going to be running 6 point Harness (as opposed to 3 point), HANS really isn't an option. HANS (or an R3) isn't a luxury.

Any of the HANS made in the last few years (at least) have a lip to make the shoulders lock in. Easy to put on.

Here is a nice video that shows why a HANS is so important: http://hansdevice.com/Tech/Professor-HANS-Video-Page

You won't find it hard to get used to and on the track its no distraction at all.

3 Point is designed to let your entire body move to absorb impact. 6 point, the only thing that will move is your head.

944hal

If you are installing a 6 point harness why would not want to use a Hans. Get a Hans and the Hans compatible belts. It's your neck. I've used the 3"belt with a HANS, without a problem, for years but the belts overlaps the Hans lip. Just to be safer, I just ordered a Schroth Hans compatible harness for future track events.

Bill Lehman

I ran 3" belts with the HANS, sent them back to have them reduced to 2" in the area they ran over the HANS, going to buy 2" belts in the off season. Back in the day, we ran no shoulder belts.

Zuffenhausener

Look ma, no Hans! (sorry I'm not well)

Skypalace

I had to reply to this aspect of the quote. While driving, or in a mild impact, it is certainly the case that the 6 point belts will keep your torso firmly in the seat, and the HANS will prevent your head from moving relative to your (fixed) torso.

However, in a major impact, it's the stretch of the belts, primarily the shoulder belts, that allows the G forces to be reduced by spreading the impact over a longer distance and longer period of time, as well as absorbing energy by the stretch of the belts themselves. Which is of course also why a harness needs to be tossed in the garbage after any material impact.

The HANS' job is NOT to keep the head from moving forward (as having your brain slam into the front of your skull at 100 g's would be very very bad), but to keep the head moving forward at the same rate as the torso, which can (by design) move multiple feet via stretching of the shoulder harness, and to a lesser degree the lap harness (which is 2" to specifically allow it to stretch more than it would if 3", as it's not as loaded as the shoulder harness).

I have a friend who was in a major rollover shunt in an RSR in a pro race, with a properly configured and adjusted 6-point harness. The shoulder belts stretched enough, and allowed enough torso movement inside the cockpit, that paint from his helmet was left on the passenger Nascar door bar. It's the stretch of the 6-point harness, and thus both direct energy absorption, and ability to reduce instantaneous g loads by stretching the body's deceleration over a longer period of time, that allowed him to still be around to tell the story. His impacting the door bar is one of the specific reasons that most pro organizations now require catch netting and winged seats.

winders

I find this very hard to believe. I would like to see video evidence of this.....

Scott

Skypalace

The driver involved has won the Rolex 24. Believe me or don't, whatever.

winders

I am just trying to wrap my head around what your described.

Is this guy 7' tall with a really long torso and a loose helmet? I am 6' 3", and I would have to be straddling the shifter to have my head hit the (not NASCAR) passenger door bar.

Is there video?

Scott

Skypalace

No video, if there was I'm sure it would be well known for safety instructional purposes. This was a while ago, non-winged seat that didn't have terribly high sides. He's probably near your height, maybe 6'1 or 6'2.

It was a very very violent crash, multiple high speed rolls. The car was destroyed, and the tub not reusable. There were some bent roll cage tubes, so 'updated' car geometry could have played a role.

The car did not have the current outward-bending NASCAR bars, just additional horizontal door bars, as required by some of the pro series at the time. This is what was impacted

My guess to what happened, is that his shoulder belts stretched, with enough stretch (and/or looseness) of his lap belts, that his torso fully pulled clear of the seat sides and his butt was also lifted off the seat, and one of the 'hits' when rolling caused him to rotate 75 or 80 degrees sideways, basically rotating on his right hip over the seat edge. Or something like that.

That incident, along with my significant appreciation for my life, is highly responsible for my:

1) Choosing to race in Porsche 911's, I am occasionally in, but uncomfortable in other chassis. I've seen other very violent incidents in factory 911's (Cups and R's and RSR's) with drivers walking away, and much less violent incidents in other chassis with injured drivers.

2) Wearing a HANS device whenever in a car at speed, as I mentioned above I started wearing it in 2000. I've long since stopped instructing at DE's as once used to having full safety gear, I'm no longer comfortable at speed with an unknown driver, with no HANS and a 3-point belt, in a car with no cage, fuel cell, or fire system.

3) Always using an FIA spec winged seat with high thigh and torso bolsters.

4) Insisting all parts of my harness are always properly adjusted, even in multiple-driver enduro events (like this little race they have in Florida every January).

5) Not driving in series where I don't think the series officials police or penalize repeated car to car contact as severely as I'd like them to. There are some series and drivers that have repeated incidents of low-percentage moves at high speed locations that cause significant damage, and I'm just not comfortable head to head racing around people like that.

winders

Okay, this was an extraordinary accident, a while ago, and with less than ideal equipment. Basically, his torso was out of the shoulder belts of his 6-point harness. Even then, the lap belt would have had to have stretched quite a bit more than makes sense unless he slid out of it some amount during the crash. If he had a Hans Device on, it would have been useless once his torso was clear of the shoulder belts.

Sounds nasty...

Scott