cello

^lol.

Great stuff guys!

Can we back up a bit. Peter said the following:

Can you guys expand on this a bit? In the corner-entry phase (from turn in to and before apex), I think the most common approach to initiating rotation and thereby changing the cars heading is by trail braking. Are there other ways? I know some 'throw and catch' (by steering input). Some use curbing. Etc....

Can you discuss in general techniques to initiating rotation; and, if more than one, their relative advantages/disadvantages and how they interact with chassis set up.

And yes I know thats quite a question, sorry and thanks much in advance...

Veloce Raptor

I won't speak for Peter, since it is his point. However, I will differ slightly with the bolded part. The most common approach to initiating rotation is via the steering wheel. Trail braking often aids rotation by loosening up the rear and/or adding more bite to the front tires. But it all begins with the steering wheel.

To Peter's point, many advanced drivers get a lot of their rotation done early in the turning process--not by throw and catch but more by earlier and more decisive turn in--and thus have to be prepared for a higher initial yaw rate and the accompanying forces that affect a car's behavior and attitude.

cello

Thanks VR! That helps redefine where to focus attention on turn-in a bit.

ProCoach

Dave's got it. I think trail-braking is primarily useful only in slower corners that require more than 30-45 degrees of turning (think 90-200 degrees).

The reason why drivers initiate rotation early is because it's safer. By pointing the car to the inside of the apex curb, the car begins it's parabolic arc earlier with more room to make adjustments. Plus, the optimal exit is more easily executed by maintaining that slip angle (achieved by the initial rotation) by early (and more aggressive in amplitude, but not necessarily in rate of change in) throttle application.

I saw an AWESOME example of this by one of the 2012 RSR's in white at the Sebring Test Days through T15 on YouTube. I'll look for it.

insite

great discussion, guys. thank you! i have a couple of questions:

1. you mention turning in more aggressively to get the nose pointed toward the apex early. how does this affect the turn-in point compared w/ a more gentle approach?

2. is there a corresponding throttle input? my comfort level with aggressive turn-in tends to be on slower corners. i usually lift just a tad as i turn in to get the nose to bite. once the car rotates, i get back on the gas ASAP. is this the same in faster corners? depends on the car?

3. my car has an open diff. i've never actually driven on track w/ an LSD. obviously an LSD allows more confident & aggressive corner entry. anyone have tips for working on early rotation specifically w/ an open diff? thanks again for your thoughts.

kev

BBMGT3

I read somewhere "slow hands through the fast stuff, fast hands through the slow stuff"

Will let the pros answer tho

Veloce Raptor

1. not more aggressively, just more decisively...I still advocate a relatively gentle turn in that minimizes unsettling or surprising the car...but when turn in begins, make sure it is enough so that you don't have to add more steering at the apex (which is one of the most common mistakes I see)

2. in theory this works; however, in some faster corners, when you are at the limit of adhesion, it may pay to be off throttle a smidgen longer to allow the car to settle--the benefits often are that you can commit to ONE throttle input thereafter, rather than on/off/on/off/etc as the car settles

3. I am by no means a diff expert...however, mistakes I have made in others' open diff cars are to trail-brake too aggressively...they require a much more delicate touch than LSD cars in the brake zones IMO.

Agree this is generally good advice. Be aware that "fast hands" never means "sudden hands which surprise the car"...

BBMGT3

My latest query!

The "Fake Apex".

http://youtu.be/C4LhDesueIw

I was running this morning (sorry for video, hard to tell whats going on) and I was noticing that sometimes a corner can have a loooooong entry phase, a clear apex, and a looooong exit phase.
The entry (last corner before main straight) is downhill, and very slippery. I noticed on my Predictive that I was gaining quite a bit of time by coming onto the throttle and starting to accelerate a few meters BEFORE the apex. So, I would try and carry more speed next time around but that wouldn't work (some examples in video lol).

So I started thinking that "this Apex LIES!", but found that maybe the characteristics of that particular corner and my particular car (how it puts the power down in that scenario) allows for a quicker time to be produced in an unconventional way. Can this happen, or should I focus on carrying more speed into the corner? Or am I doing something else wrong?

Dubai944

Do you guys get Autosport magazine in the States?

There is an article in the March issue called "Inside the F1 cockpit". It looks at how each of us have a unique physiology which directly affects how we sense g-force, rotation and yaw and how that then impacts on driving styles of different F1 drivers and the ability of some drivers to deal better with rotational forces, and their preferences for steer characteristics in setup etc.

A good read, that relates to a lot of what is being said here.

winders

I did not look at the video....

Generally speaking, corner exit speed is what you are looking to improve. This means that you want to approach the corner so you are on the gas well before the apex. I think people screw up the most when trying to go faster into a corner when they should be focusing on coming out of the corner faster.

Scott

Sterling Doc

On the corner entry topic, the thing I struggle most with is having to add more steering input than I think is optimal when transitioning from trail braking to throttle in the early mid-corner phase. The corner that comes to mind most here is turn 1 at Putnam Park. This corner can carry a lot more speed in than is immediately obvious, but after the light initial trail braking to rotate the car, I have to dial in more steering lock to make the apex. Maybe I need to rotate the car more, or maybe my 944 Spec car doesn't make enough power to maintain the rotation on throttle very easily, or...?

I can link to some video and/or TM data for reference, but that may go beyond the scope of this thread. Thanks in advance/

Dubai944

I don't think the apex there is ambiguous. You just seem to be staying on the brakes too far into the turn and not getting back to the throttle quickly enough.

Its down hill and a bit off camber. You should be back to maintenance throttle as soon as you turn in and accelerating well before the apex to maximise your exit speed and carry the speed down the straight but to be able to do that there you need to have the weight on the rear tires as early as you can. It's one of those corners where it pays to do most of your braking in a straight line to a slightly slower entry speed, turn in a little later but get back on the throttle earlier.

If you curve it in trying to carry more speed into the first part of the corner you will find yourself still trail braking or decelerating off throttle right where the camber goes the wrong way before the apex with the weight still on the front wheels. That's why the back end of the car gets loose and you then can't get back on the power until it's balanced again.

You have probably seen the many off-throttle spins into the inside wall that have happened there over the years?

Heres a video of my car on the same circuit starting wth a run to the corner we are discussing. On the first lap theres no issue, back on the power early, nice and stable but on the second lap at the same corner you can see the Maserati in front staying on the brakes past the turn in and not gettiing back on the power early which slows his corner speed and exit. On the third lap on the same corner he is slowing me up enough that I don't drive my line properly and I also end up off throttle well into the corner and the car gets briefly out of shape.

I know a 944 is a bit different to a 911 so the gurus can comment on the technique for driving your rear engined car, (they can probably comment on my crappy driving as well )but I think the principle is the similar, you need to get pointed in the right direction and back on the throttle earlier to plant the rear end.

Veloce Raptor

Finally got the time to watch both videos. I would say I tend to agree with Dubai944. Having driven this track in a wide variety of cars, I found that aggressive trail braking to the apex didn't really work that well on this corner. I found that emphasizing straight line braking a bit deeper, with a bit more early rotation, allowed me to start coming out of steering almost immediately & go to power to settle the rear just as the off camber got a lot worse. Made for a faster exit & mush less pucker factor due to a much more stable car. Interesting in the 2nd video to watch the Maser. You can see clearly that he is loose in a bunch of other corners, and I suspect this is why he was heavily overbraking into the one we are discussing here--scared of losing the back end when the camber changes.

fleadh

Here's an interesting snapshot of some data from a recent test day of mine. The section of track shown is over the T5 bypass and out of Turn 6 at Thunderhill, for those familiar with the track. For those who aren't, it's a rise/jump into a right hand sweeper that feeds into a left hand turn. Pretty tricky area in a quick car, but a good spot for passing (into T6) and a good spot to makeup time on others.



Each color is using a different style to get through the section (different drivers, same car about 30 minutes apart). Red rides the rev limiter into T6 (and doesn't have as much entry speed as Green), but allows them to get a little farther to the right to "widen" T6 and carry more speed through the middle. Green runs farther out to the left side through the first sweeper in a taller gear which allows more entry speed, but really has to fight the car (and fit in a downshift) to get it through the corner with enough speed to have a decent exit.

The GLOAD channel is just something I created (from the advice of a friend) that shows the vector sum of the G channels.. a little easier to see the "total" G load through the tires at any given time. You'll notice that the GLOAD never drops below 1 through the left sweeper, through the braking zone, and through the right hand turn.

IMO the data is showing positives and negatives for both styles. I think the ultimate fastest way at that point in time was some combination of both. Maybe a gear taller for Red, while still trying to get a little farther right before turn-in for T6. Of course, that'll complicate the braking zone as a downshift will be needed..... ahh, racing...

-mike

martinr007

Hi,

I hope this hasn't been asked before, I did a search of the thread but couldn't see this question.

I'm a rookie DE driver and am heading to the Nurburgring later in the year for the first time.

My main worry is as per the title, if I forget where I'm at and enter a corner to fast or turn in to early what's the best course of action? On a track with a bit of run off I could allow the car to run a bit wide but in most of the corners that's not an option

Cheers,
Martin