John H

13's for single car incidents sucks. It is just adding insult to injury. That is why I started running NASA too.

38D

You are speculating in most of the above. Since it didn't happen at a PCA race, there is no way to know if any 13s would have been handed out.

What you could have been required to do is pit after the contact. This is for safety and nothing more. I have seen an incident first hand where a car did not come in immediately, and then was black flagged a lap latter. While the body damage was almost non-existent, the sidewall of his front tire had been cut and a large bulge was forming right down by the bead. How many more laps could he have gone? Who knows. But what seems like minor contact can still impact your safety on the track.


In my single car 13, I had no one to blame but myself. I was chasing an out of class car at Daytona and went into T1 too hot, spun, and lightly contacted the wall (and I was P1 in class ). I learned that if I'm winning, just turn it back a notch and bring the car home. I personally do not want to be out on track with guys that crash all the time and think its just pushing the limits. Pros rarely crash, and IMO that should be our goal too.

Jim Child

This scenario is clearly a "racing incident". Unfortunately PCA does not believe in racing incidents, so that contact would have forced both of you to report to the black flag station effectively ending the race for both of you. Its hard to say how the steward would have ruled. The ruling could have been anything from 13's for both of you to no 13 due to the mechanical failure of the other car. Either way at best your race is ruined. At worst the weekend is over for both of you, and you drive on probation for the next 13 months.

This is one of the reasons why I think the NASA GTS 13 rule is clearly superior to PCA's. Fault in an inident is sorted out after the race, and "racing incidents" incur no penalty. Neither do single car incidents. Penalties are only given for boneheaded moves that affect someone else's race, and that's really what we're trying to deter isn't it?

Weston Dillard

+1 on "I deserved the one I got".

As a Scrutineer, I don't have to make the call, only gather info. It does hurt to see someone get a 13 for going in a little hot on a wet track and bonking a tire wall, especially when it happens in the first session on Saturday. On the other hand, some of the single car incidents we see are only single car because there weren't any other cars around to hit, or if there were, they all avoided him. I often have the "avoiders" stopping by to tell me they are glad they don't have to worry about that guy any more this weekend.

It's probably not a perfect rule, but it seems to work pretty well.

BTW - Am I the only one who's unmoved when a Spec 944 or Spec Miata (or Saturday night dirt track) racer says 13/13 rules aren't necessary?

West

pat056

I agree w/the 13/13 rule. I think you have to have some rule and this is a good one. Like any rule, some people get screwed. I'll agree with that. But I say that the vast majority of the time, the ruling is fair.
The thing no one knows is how many incidents were avoided entirely because some took descretion over valor. There's a lot of people who start racing in PCA and don't have the experience level. They, and I, need this extra protection IMHO.
From what I've seen, Stewards seem to dole out decisions pretty fairly.

Glen

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...=single+car+13

Good thread for this. I am not a fan of the single car 13, I feel Our Stewards are very capable of using discretion when differentiating between an idiot Off and a single car incident that does not deserve a 13....We all know who the idiots are, dont we! They do too! WHy punish a experienced driver who races a bunch more each year the same as the guy who makes 2 races a year to keep his 4 race minimum up? There should be subjective rulings just on the experience differential alone, throw in the known idiot factor and a Steward being able to make subjective rulings is a no brainer....


Below from the thread where Chris got a 13 at Daytona...

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...=single+car+13

01-14-2008, 02:00 AM #23
Glen
Addict
Rennlist Member




Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: TX
Posts: 1,939

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Premier Motorsp
I think PCA Club Racing should realize that they given their stewards only one way to deal with an infinite variety of on-track incidents. Surely we can do better than this?

Well said. PCA has been hesitant to give the Steward any sort of subjective decision ability. If we have the very best people at the Steward position, why cant they be entrusted with subjective decision ability. Is it because they dont merit it? Of course they do. I would gladly abide by any of the existing stewards decisions. It is a tough, thankless job. They are asked to make everything into a black and white decision. In racing clearly that is not always possible. The precedent has been set on a couple of areas in this incident, if You slow abruptly or miss a shift and an incident occurs behind You, it is Your fault. I have seen 13/s given over the past couple of years for slowing over aggressively, missing a shift and checking up. Another precedent that has been set is that we all must give each other racing room. You have an obligation to behave as You have behaved in the past so that Your movements can be somewhat predictable and anticipated by the overtaking car. If You deviate from that then You must have a good reason and if not You stand the risk of causing an incident and collecting a 13. Things are happening faster and faster these days, cars are quicker, fields are larger...more and more gray area each lap. There was a very debated incident where someone missed a shift, the car behind him hit him, the missed a shift car got the 13. That was the precedent incident that began to gray "the overtaking car has the responsibility to make a clean pass" dictum. I really wish Our stewards were allowed to be subjective in the gray. If I am spending 10-15k to run an event, have an incident(costing another 10-15k, if I am lucky) and am not allowed to continue to run or try to run if its a "gray area incident" then I will be very soured on the whole thing. That is alot different however if I am a bonehead, creating dangerous situations and need to leave for the safety of the event, others, and self. We all know the difference, we see it at each event. I worked very hard to come up with a couple of options for PCA with PMNA. Making PCA more of a racing option for several classes while keeping gentlemans racing in several others seems to be a logical direction. I believe that is why You see several other viable options growing each year. PCA is my favorite place to race, I hope it remains so and hope to see it grow and mature where needed.

With all that being said, I will go mirror to mirror with You Chris all day every day, You are one of the finest drivers I know out there. I will continue as I always have, to completely trust You with my life. There are several others of which I cant say the same...
__________________
Thanks, Glen

DrJupeman

You were a complete idiot in this situation (are still? ) - but I think the point some are trying to make is you didn't need the 13 to know that you f'd up. You felt the pain of a) losing, b) having to repair your car, c) me yelling at you for months that you were an idiot and need to learn to manage a race and drive to the situation. Imo, you should not have been put on probation for your incident from a "spirit of the rule" perspective. Obviously from a "letter of the rule" perspective you were.

I am a believer in the 13/13 and have first-hand experienced fair and thorough consideration from a Steward in a multi-car situation. I do think some evaluation needs to take place for single-car incidents, however, and they shouldn't just be rubber-stamped 13's.

Geoffrey

Glen, I'm quite certain that Chris did not receive a 13 for that incident.

Larry Herman

Ultimately he did not, but it was initially given, and upheld on appeal, and then finally reversed after a large outswelling of support for Chris and his position. Maybe this is the precursor to a little more leniency for true "racing incedents" of which this was catagorically one.

Geoffrey

I don't believe the final decision was made at the time he posted on Rennlist, it was still undergoing the appeal process. I don't think Rennlist has much ability to sway a Steward's decision.

Mark in Baltimore

Chris' 13 was not reversed when he posted his video. I think his 13 was reversed because the application of his penalty was not consistent, as embodied by Paragraph 5 of The Guiding Principles of PCA Club Racing, to name but one reference that PCA has made regarding the consistent enforcement of the rules. Additionally, I believe that Rennlist very much allows some officials at PCA to keep a finger on the pulse of the program and learn what the racers are discussing. I was one of the racers who wrote to PCA in Chris' defense and would like to think that my letter had some effect. Who knows.

5. Driver conduct governed by consistent emforcement of 13/13-Rule, and the lack of points/championships. We all know what the 13/13 Rule is, and a key element of the rule is being consistent in its enforcement. The Stewards and Scrutineers go to great lengths in order to achive this. There are are reports prepared after each race and distributed among the staff members. There are annual meetings to review the rules and procedures. There is also a lot of email dialog whenever there is an isue to address. The 13/13 Rule is as clear and as objective as it can be and there are no favorites.

vbcracer

M758, The situation you describe could have resulted in no 13. The guy who came together with you, and you, were trying to avoid hitting the guy who was slow on the start. If the problem he had was mechanical and was something he could not have prevented by reasonable car preparation, he also would not get a 13.

M758

Well that sort of thing would have cost me two races.

Here is why.

In the minor contact incident doing a stop to check the car for a light tap would have put me in the back of the field. As it happend however the tap was light and neither of us really even slowed down. It happend that quick. The car felt fine and we both had great race. I got second inclass.

On another time on the start of 90 mintute endro I got a little to close to the inside wall in the 2nd turn. I just brushed it with my front tire. Spooked me an dropped back a couple spots in the traffic. Car felt fine and it turned out that I just white walled the tire. No fender contact at all. Again stopping for that would have put me effectivly out of the race since I then went 90 minutes nose to tail not stop with 2 other cars inclass. I got second place by less than 1 second.

If you have contact and the car feels wrong stop... If not learn to feel it out for a few corners and keep going. Being forced to stop after something like that just is punative.

Same way I feel for single car 13/13's. I had one at Willow Springs back in 2003. Turn 9 as I was completing my 2nd qualy lap the back end stepped out. I corrected and went right off in the dirt straight. I kept going for a long time and ran up a berm seemingly miles off track. I tore up the front of he car pretty good, but we had spares so I just fixed the car. My one lap had given me pole in class and won the race later that day from pole. The happened Saturday and I was also fortunate enough to win again on Sunday. Sending me home then was just not the right thing to do. Adversity happens and part of racing is making the best of it.

M758

Maybe you are right. Maybe not.

In the end my Saturday night would have been spending hasing out who did what to who when. The final out come have been no 13's, but in this case we all worked in out in 5 minutes post race. I walked over to the other driver and said he was sorry and that he was tring to avoid the cars in front. I went over there not to lay blame, but to tell him I had not place to go and I did not want to hit him either, but it was ether that or the wall. 3 mintues later we talked to the guy who's car slowed down. We figured he missed a shift, but he said the car died for a moment. No issues nor concern about who gets what penalty. We talked about it all of us in a very applogetic manner and moved on.

When you are racing incidents can happen. Sometimes even to the best of drivers crap happens. We as racers need to be man enough to know your car could get dented even when people are doing the right things. Boneheads don't last long in ANY race organization. The idea of 13/13 is great, but strict implementation often applies penalties that are not needed to get the message accross. Contact is NOT cool. Rubbing is NOT racing.

SundayDriver

"The primary objective of the sport of vintage and historic automobile racing is to promote the preservation of these cars in a racing format that emphasizes safety."

This is the origin of the 13/13 concept - an organization that primarily wants to preserve the cars while racing comes second. At the other end of the spectrum is SCCA where there is no 13/13 and is clearly about the racing - car preservation (while important and desirable) comes second behind the racing.

I think the challenge in PCA is that it is not clear which is most important. If it is preservation of the car, then pretty much all 13's are valid. If it is about racing, most/many are not. PCA is trying to walk a line down the center of the road and that makes life very difficult.