5 point harnesses
06-29-2001, 01:56 PM
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5 point harnesses
I'm a real newbie to this. Haven't even done my first DE yet! I want to buy a harness bar
for my 952 along with a pair of 5 point harnesses. Are all harnesses alike (other than cam or reg latch)? One brand the same as the other?
Info greatly appreciated. Any used ones out there?
for my 952 along with a pair of 5 point harnesses. Are all harnesses alike (other than cam or reg latch)? One brand the same as the other?
Info greatly appreciated. Any used ones out there?
06-29-2001, 04:11 PM
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I have used several types of these, and here are some of my feelings
-becareful to get a pull down style not pull up,
-get ones that are adustable at both ends, the buckle end and the floormount end, all are adjustable at the shoulder mount point
-I like the cam lock style, but do not like the ones like TRW/Sabelt because the lever could get caught and unlatched, look at www.bellmotorsports.com for the cam lock style I like.
-get the extra shoulder pads if you can
-I like having the clip/eye bolt style attachment for the floor bolts, makes it easier to remove and therefore protect the belts from damage while working on the car.
-always get the same set up for your passanger, I will not ride in a car if I do not have the same level of safety as the drive (this means racing seat as well)
thats about all I can think of right now, if you want to get great advice, give the guy at www.bellmotorsports.com a call and ask away, he is very safety oriented and has helped me out a lot.
Jim
-becareful to get a pull down style not pull up,
-get ones that are adustable at both ends, the buckle end and the floormount end, all are adjustable at the shoulder mount point
-I like the cam lock style, but do not like the ones like TRW/Sabelt because the lever could get caught and unlatched, look at www.bellmotorsports.com for the cam lock style I like.
-get the extra shoulder pads if you can
-I like having the clip/eye bolt style attachment for the floor bolts, makes it easier to remove and therefore protect the belts from damage while working on the car.
-always get the same set up for your passanger, I will not ride in a car if I do not have the same level of safety as the drive (this means racing seat as well)
thats about all I can think of right now, if you want to get great advice, give the guy at www.bellmotorsports.com a call and ask away, he is very safety oriented and has helped me out a lot.
Jim
06-29-2001, 04:13 PM
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one last thing, buying local is a good idea, as far as I can tell, manufacturers will not re-web anyone elses belts, so if the belts are made in the USA, it is a lot easier to get them re-webed if you ever need to.
06-29-2001, 04:34 PM
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Call Bill Love at OG Racing 800.934.9112 or click on: OG Racing He is a PCA club racer and caters to Porsche guys. He will spend the necessary time with you on the phone.
Tell him E. J. says hi.
(Usual BS applies here: no affiliation, just happy customer)
Tell him E. J. says hi.
(Usual BS applies here: no affiliation, just happy customer)
06-29-2001, 06:25 PM
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Don't get too hung up on the different styles. The reason there are so many is that not every style goes with the individual driver or the individual car. For example, I prefer the pull up style because it's easier for someone trying to help you when they are leaning over the roll cage. Some people hate any camlock and prefer the latch. It's kind of like ties: straight, bow or bolo, your choice. Ask questions, try to handle some merchandise, and don't get too wedded to any one style at first, because you may prefer something else.
06-29-2001, 09:20 PM
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You might also check the organization you'll be doing your DE with. Our PCA region requires that harnesses, when used, are used with seats designed to accomodate harnesses. That means, typically, holes in the headrest to keep the shoulder harness on your shoulder.
I'll second using OG Racing as a harness source. Good, knowledgable people there, and reasonable prices.
I'll second using OG Racing as a harness source. Good, knowledgable people there, and reasonable prices.
07-02-2001, 01:29 AM
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I would hope that PCA requires roll-over protection to use a harness. I know a number of instructors that will not ride in a car sans roll-bar/cage unless you have a stock 3-point.
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07-02-2001, 09:27 AM
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I absolutely concur with the last post concerning harnesses and roll-over protection. PCA does not require roll-over protection in conjunction with a harness, hence a harness bar, otherwise one could use the roll bar/cage. I suppose risk management is involved here, the odds of rolling or running into a barrier. A recent incident at Summit Point with an M3 underscored the roll-over protection that the roof alone provided (none). As a tech inspector, I have inspected a large number of cars with full harnesses and no roll over protection for DE. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...226&p=50807986
discussion at -- http://www.pcapotomac.org/cgi-bin/ul...&f=13&t=000250
I raced a number of years and have since "settled down" to DE, and I cannot imagine that I would want my head to be the highest point in the car. I have no real justification for not installing at least a roll bar for DE, other then the ability to transport tires. For now I have only installed the 3-inch lap-belt and use that inconjunction with the factory 3 point.
discussion at -- http://www.pcapotomac.org/cgi-bin/ul...&f=13&t=000250
I raced a number of years and have since "settled down" to DE, and I cannot imagine that I would want my head to be the highest point in the car. I have no real justification for not installing at least a roll bar for DE, other then the ability to transport tires. For now I have only installed the 3-inch lap-belt and use that inconjunction with the factory 3 point.
07-02-2001, 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Alan Herod:
<STRONG>I absolutely concur with the last post concerning harnesses and roll-over protection. PCA does not require roll-over protection in conjunction with a harness, hence a harness bar, otherwise one could use the roll bar/cage. I suppose risk management is involved here, the odds of rolling or running into a barrier. A recent incident at Summit Point with an M3 underscored the roll-over protection that the roof alone provided (none). As a tech inspector, I have inspected a large number of cars with full harnesses and no roll over protection for DE. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...226&p=50807986
discussion at -- http://www.pcapotomac.org/cgi-bin/ul...&f=13&t=000250
I raced a number of years and have since "settled down" to DE, and I cannot imagine that I would want my head to be the highest point in the car. I have no real justification for not installing at least a roll bar for DE, other then the ability to transport tires. For now I have only installed the 3-inch lap-belt and use that inconjunction with the factory 3 point.</STRONG>
<STRONG>I absolutely concur with the last post concerning harnesses and roll-over protection. PCA does not require roll-over protection in conjunction with a harness, hence a harness bar, otherwise one could use the roll bar/cage. I suppose risk management is involved here, the odds of rolling or running into a barrier. A recent incident at Summit Point with an M3 underscored the roll-over protection that the roof alone provided (none). As a tech inspector, I have inspected a large number of cars with full harnesses and no roll over protection for DE. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...226&p=50807986
discussion at -- http://www.pcapotomac.org/cgi-bin/ul...&f=13&t=000250
I raced a number of years and have since "settled down" to DE, and I cannot imagine that I would want my head to be the highest point in the car. I have no real justification for not installing at least a roll bar for DE, other then the ability to transport tires. For now I have only installed the 3-inch lap-belt and use that inconjunction with the factory 3 point.</STRONG>
07-03-2001, 12:18 PM
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Adam, I am sorry that I won't be at CMP -- the venue is a lot of fun. I already committed to Summit Point the end of the month and am incredibly far behind the power curve. Aren't the NASA events quite pricey?
07-03-2001, 12:36 PM
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Suggestions forwarded from the guys who invented the HANS device (this from a presentation at a Detr. Region SCCA meeting):
Get a 6-point, substantially better restraint characteristics than a 5-point.
Latch buckles are more durable than the camlocks; latches will last through more impacts than the driver will, whereas the pins in the camlocks are bent after one or two good impacts. It's a money question. This is based on their work with impact sleds at U of M.
Don't get a sternum strap - they can cause injury to the neck on impact. Unfortunately, I already had one before I heard the presentation.
There are some further details regarding mounting, but these are the purchase-relevant issues. I also second the motion to get them locally, to help with re-webbing.
Cheers,
Get a 6-point, substantially better restraint characteristics than a 5-point.
Latch buckles are more durable than the camlocks; latches will last through more impacts than the driver will, whereas the pins in the camlocks are bent after one or two good impacts. It's a money question. This is based on their work with impact sleds at U of M.
Don't get a sternum strap - they can cause injury to the neck on impact. Unfortunately, I already had one before I heard the presentation.
There are some further details regarding mounting, but these are the purchase-relevant issues. I also second the motion to get them locally, to help with re-webbing.
Cheers,
07-03-2001, 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Alan Herod:
<STRONG>Adam, I am sorry that I won't be at CMP -- the venue is a lot of fun. I already committed to Summit Point the end of the month and am incredibly far behind the power curve. Aren't the NASA events quite pricey?</STRONG>
<STRONG>Adam, I am sorry that I won't be at CMP -- the venue is a lot of fun. I already committed to Summit Point the end of the month and am incredibly far behind the power curve. Aren't the NASA events quite pricey?</STRONG>
Too bad you can't make it. Mazda Club at VIR in September or the Solo I at CMP in late August???? I should be at both.
07-03-2001, 05:26 PM
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Now you guys are really getting me nervous!
Are you saying that a harness bar (with a harness) without rollover protection can be
more dangerous than no harness bar and factory seat belts?
Are you saying that a harness bar (with a harness) without rollover protection can be
more dangerous than no harness bar and factory seat belts?
07-03-2001, 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by patd:
<STRONG>Now you guys are really getting me nervous!
Are you saying that a harness bar (with a harness) without rollover protection can be
more dangerous than no harness bar and factory seat belts?</STRONG>
<STRONG>Now you guys are really getting me nervous!
Are you saying that a harness bar (with a harness) without rollover protection can be
more dangerous than no harness bar and factory seat belts?
</STRONG>
Absolutely. Think about that pic (Alan's post) and visualize your harness bar doing anything aside from keeping you rigid as the bottom of the car forces your body into the roof (or the roof tries to push your body up towards the floorboard - whichever way you want to interpret it).
"This is PRECISELY why racing seat belts are illegal in street cars on the highway and should never be used without a roll cage while on track.
Street belts allow you to lean over in a rollover. Race belts will hold you upright and your head becomes the rollbar."
"They would have been f__ed if they had 5 pts on. At least the seat belts let them scrunch down."
By the way, aside from a few scrapes and a couple of stitches, both instructor and student were fine. The first quote was from the NASA-VA Race Director and the second was a friend who was at Summit with the instructor (also driving).
quotes come from this thread at Honda-Tech http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=47098&page=1
[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: Adam Richman ]
07-03-2001, 10:39 PM
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Just a caution on the discussion. PCA does not have national drivers education rules. There are standard Club Racing rules, and there are rules for the Parade. However, after that, each region has discretion in setting their drivers education rules. And, while they are pretty consistent, there are some differences. So, just be sure you're familiar with the region's rules where you'll be driving.