GhettoRacer

come join us at TracQuest. We will be at Sears Point in Dec 9/10. This is the best track in California bar none and one of the best in the country.

You will get plenty of track time and some of the very best instructors. We provide 1:1 instructor/student ratio for the beginners. Colm joined us in his GT2 at Laguna Seca and he had a fabulous time.

For more info :

<a href="http://tracquest.com/Events/sp200212.htm" target="_blank">http://tracquest.com/Events/sp200212.htm</a>

I'm one of TQ's regular instructors. Better known as an "instructor *****" (instructing for free seat time). Having instructed for most of the clubs/open track events in California (51 days instructing this year), I can vouch TQ is in the top 3! And the best overall value for your dollar.

What am I making this post? Because I'm trying to get Todd to buy me dinner on Monday night. If the food is like last year, it'll be some of the banquet food you'll ever have!

ps, I'd had the fortune of driving most of the late 993 (C, C2S, C4S, TT) and 996 (C, C4, C4S, TT, GT2, GT3Cup) cars on track. so feel free to request for me. but we only assign instructor for the 1st session, and we do mix/match after so you get the benefits of multiple instructors.

I promise you will have more fun than you imagined, and your car can do things you never thought possible. And you won't be able to wipe that grin off your face and become... a track junkie like most of us have. :-)

Phil

Colm's car is AWESOME!
I was at laguna, and I will be at Sears in Dec
I need lotso instruction...will be my 2nd time out

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Hey Frank, if I go, do you promise to drive my car at 30 degree slip angles? 'Cause I would be disappointed if an instructor who owns a Del Sol didn't drive my car harder than I do at the track with the very real possibility of turning it into patio furniture. But why would I worry about that, you have 50+ days in other peoples rear engined cars, right?

I really want an instructor whose main point in being there is to drive a whole bunch of cars they'll never own and who instructs for the free track time.

E. J.

Phil

[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>Hey Frank, if I go, do you promise to drive my car at 30 degree slip angles? 'Cause I would be disappointed if an instructor who owns a Del Sol didn't drive my car harder than I do at the track with the very real possibility of turning it into patio furniture. But why would I worry about that, you have 50+ days in other peoples rear engined cars, right?

I really want an instructor whose main point in being there is to drive a whole bunch of cars they'll never own and who instructs for the free track time.

E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>

hmmm

GhettoRacer

heh. money can be made. had some. lost some. thanks to stock options i had lots of $ in the bank at one point (fully vested too). but so what i didn't know what i really wanted.

i do wish i bought a 996 TT and a house when i had most of it. but ohh well, live and learn.

as for owning a good car. i dunno what i really want. there are way too many cars in this world. and my goal is to get to drive a McLaren F1 even if i don't own one.

what's wrong me having the confidence and skills to drive others' 200k machines at 8/10th safely? and if the owner isn't comfortable, they can say no to me. i still take great care of my students. I helped out Colm for couple of sessions and I didn't drive his car. of course I asked. and I would've obliged with every request he made (keep it under 4k, corner at 5/10th or whatever). it would've still been really neat experience for me.

I instruct for many reasons. free track time and driving cool cars are great perks. but i also truly love the people aspects. meeting new people, share the track passion, making them safely go faster... learning mroe about myself, skills, knowledge... etc. it's a lot more to me than just driving and free track time.

PS, and for those of you reading this do not take it the wrong way. TracQuest has truly very nice and experienced group of instructors. I'm just merely one of them. And I happen to like to drive various cars. And instructor driving your car is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL and 100% your right to make. with that said, please take your Porsche's out. SP is a truly awesome track. See you at the track and happy motoring!

E. J. - 993 Alumni

[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>what's wrong me having the confidence and skills to drive others' 200k machines at 8/10th safely? and if the owner isn't comfortable, they can say no to me. i still take great care of my students.</strong><hr></blockquote>

From a recent email from Frank:


[quote]From a public email list sent by Frank:
<strong>It works event better when I'm driving students' cars. Makes them really calm when I push their cars a little bit. At LS I had two fairly high speed oversteers of about 30 deg. Once in Delbert's Z06 on T9 entry (trailbraked into turn, oops), and an even more wild one in Ralph's E46 SMG on the exit (quick lift at the exit 'cause I went full power down T9 and knew I'd run out of road if I stay on it... that was a interesting slide!). Luckily in both I gathered up without any drama (no over correction) and didn't miss a beat. Then I get to tell 'em, hey see you can make a mistake and be perfectly okay and with enough practice they will get there too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Frank, do you have any idea how far out the back end has to be to be 30 degrees? That's out there man. Another question, have you really thought out the ramifications if you turn someone’s $200k SY GT2 into beer cans? News flash: his insurance ain't gonna pay for it, yours sure as hell isn’t either. What are you gonna do? Climb out of the car and hand him his keys and say sorry. He may be your friend before you ball it up, but I bet he won't be after.

And I think your arrogance of driving at the limit is what most angers me. You think because you have 50 days in other people's nice cars you have the experience to save it under all circumstances? You must be smoking crack. It happens so fast your head would spin faster than the car. Say there's a little spot of oil you hit while sliding through turn 9 at LS and you stuff it into the wall where Jack (sorry Jack) did? He has tons more experience than you do and his car is wrecked. Do you think he didn't try everything he has in his arsenal to save it? Unfortunately, 50 days in other people's nice cars at Drivers Eds, not racing, does not qualify you to be a Skip Barber instructor. Hell, out here it doesn't even qualify you to be a DE instructor.

I hope people realize where I'm coming from on this subject. I have seen many cars wrecked at DEs over the years, some by instructors. One was an instructor driving a student car. That instructor had about 20 years experience, but the coolant at the track out point didn't discriminate and the M3 was toast. Can't say how the wreck was dealt with between the student and instructor, but suffice to say that insurance didn't cover it. And this was well before the majority of insurance companies started excluding Drivers Ed events by name.

I just want this to serve as a wake up call to the dangers of driving any car at the track, but especially a car owned by someone else. Hell, I have been doing this for 15 years and I had second thoughts about driving a friends 993 race car for a few laps because I knew I couldn't afford the suspension, much less the whole damn car.

Finally, I am not attacking Frank as some believe me to be. I have never met him. I am attacking his ego, attitude and entitlement belief that he feels he has the right to drive lots of nice cars at the track because he is a DE instructor. Then to go bragging about driving beyond sensible limits in other people’s expensive cars on the internet and email lists in the name of instructingis appalling. If that is what it means to be a DE instructor, I turn my DE instructor card in now. Frank, you're not going to show up at my door asking me to stay in my half million dollar home just because you are a house inspector are you?

Ask yourself, is that the type of person I want driving my $$$ car? Does he really have to go slide my car around the track to show me its limits? I'm a beginner student and don't even know the line yet, but it's really important for me to see the limits of adhesion in my car?

Maybe I am dense, but I just don’t get it. As a wise friend once taught me:

[quote]<strong>When I picked a gym and someone to lay out a workout routine, I looked for someone in their 50’s or older. Any 20 year old can be healthy. At 50, you better know what you are doing.

When you pick a CPA, get one who knows the system. I like the ex IRS guys.

When you pick a driving instructor, pick one with a better/faster car than yours. They don’t need to abuse yours for some cheap thrills.</strong><hr></blockquote>

E. J.

ps - Frank, I am sure most people would like to drive a Mclaren F1 car at some point too, but some of us are realistic enough to recognize that it ain't gonna happen. I feel bad for anyone who tosses you the keys to a supercar like that.

Greg Fishman

I personally don't think it is right to even ask a student to drive his car. If they ask you to drive it that is another story. I can't imagine walking around and requesting drives from guys I may not even know.

GhettoRacer

EJ, you are making a lot of really personal comments about me based on fragments of posts. You have no idea what actually occured each time. And you are making very some major judgements about me. Yet you admit you dunno me. If I ball up someone's car I will my work *** off to pay for it. I don't mind you making comments and opinions about issues. But you've made numerous assumptions about what I will and will not do and that is really not cool. What is your problem?

examples:

- you said I think it's a right to drive student's car (I never said that)
- you said I won't pay for damages
- you said I can't afford some of these cars
- you assumed del Sol driver's have no skills
- you assumed I always drive cars harder/faster than the owner

I asked people if I can drive their cars, how is that entitlement. Driving cool cars is an interesting priviledge and perk of instructing. Not every organization is for it. There are certainly lot of examples of instructors gone crazy and damaging students cars. But just because some people aren't comfortable driving other people's cars at 8/10th doesn't mean that's a wrong thing to do.

I'm inviting people to come have fun at Todd's events. This thread wasn't meant to be about me.

SundayDriver

[quote]Originally posted by GhettoRacer:
<strong>EJ, you are making a lot of really personal comments about me based on fragments of posts. You have no idea what actually occured each time. And you are making very some major judgements about me. Yet you admit you dunno me. If I ball up someone's car I will my work *** off to pay for it. I don't mind you making comments and opinions about issues. But you've made numerous assumptions about what I will and will not do and that is really not cool. What is your problem?

examples:

- you said I think it's a right to drive student's car (I never said that)
- you said I won't pay for damages
- you said I can't afford some of these cars
- you assumed del Sol driver's have no skills
- you assumed I always drive cars harder/faster than the owner

I asked people if I can drive their cars, how is that entitlement. Driving cool cars is an interesting priviledge and perk of instructing. Not every organization is for it. There are certainly lot of examples of instructors gone crazy and damaging students cars. But just because some people aren't comfortable driving other people's cars at 8/10th doesn't mean that's a wrong thing to do.

I'm inviting people to come have fun at Todd's events. This thread wasn't meant to be about me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Frank -

See your eMail for most of my comments, but there are a couple of points that should be brought out here especially since you went back and edited the post.

While I respect your attitude about taking responsibility for any damage to someone else's car, the bottom line is that is not enough. Take the worst case - you hit oil and total a student's car and they are not insured. They have a wad of metal that used to be worth $100k. If you work you tail off to pay them for it, they are still out of a car and the money for a long time. My feeling is that if you can't afford to write the check on the spot, you should not drive the car. Only immediate replacement of the car or immediate payment makes them whole.

In the bullet points you added, you are right that EJ seems to have assumed you feel it is your right to drive other cars. You correctly state it is not. The points about paying seem to be a reasonable conclusion from what you said in your posts here and on PDC. I missed where EJ said that driving a Del Sol had any relationship to driving skill. It does seem reasonable to me to wonder if someone driving a Del Sol is in a financial position to make things right if they ball up a GT-2. Finally he did not assume you drove all student's cars harder than they drive them - you said that you drive some of them harder than they do and that you take some up to and beyond (my definition of) 10/10ths.

Finally, you made this about YOU when you said the only reason you are doing the original post was for a free dinner from Todd. That did not come from EJ.

GhettoRacer

This is silly. And gone way OT than my original intent of the post. Todd's events are good and there are room for drivers.

Lets keep the rest back to PDC or in private (or at least in a seperate thread).

SundayDriver

Frank,

I tried to eMail you but your server seems to be down. I also sent my message to you via Rennlist Private Message. If you want to reply, do so via eMail as my Rennlist account does not accept Private Messages.

EL

Just stop asking to test drive other people's car. let them come to you. some people have no shame, just keep asking.

GhettoRacer

[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>

And I think your arrogance of driving at the limit is what most angers me. You think because you have 50 days in other people's nice cars you have the experience to save it under all circumstances? You must be smoking crack. It happens so fast your head would spin faster than the car. Say there's a little spot of oil you hit while sliding through turn 9 at LS and you stuff it into the wall where Jack (sorry Jack) did? He has tons more experience than you do and his car is wrecked. Do you think he didn't try everything he has in his arsenal to save it? Unfortunately, 50 days in other people's nice cars at Drivers Eds, not racing, does not qualify you to be a Skip Barber instructor. Hell, out here it doesn't even qualify you to be a DE instructor.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you know anything about LS, it was not car control issue. Jack turn in WAY too early for T9. That's the real reason he ran wide on exit of T9. He was not experienced at LS enough to recognize he would run out of room. As a result the car is damaged.

As for the qualifications of being a Skip Barber instructors, don't you think the guy that handle their program would know what they want? I said my track instructing resume is good enough to get me an interview. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Enough of free instructions, now getting some pay is going to be nicer if they think I'm qualified.

I've had students with F360 Spider F1, F360 Modena, F355, 996 TT... (and yes I drove all of them at decent pace). But I've also had plenty Honda Civic, Ford Focus, Impreza WRX, Miata students too.

Stop assuming.

JackOlsen

I don't know if I have more track time than GhettoRacer, but his attitude in this thread kind of rubs me the wrong way.

To suggest that his experience from 50 track days puts him in a position where he can recover from any situation he gets a car into is certainly naive. Any experienced driver will tell you that there are potential situations where even a Michael Schumacher could not save the car 100% of the time. You do not take your car onto a track without the knowledge that -- even through no fault of your own -- you may be bringing the thing back home on a flatbed. All you can say with any certainty is that better drivers will have fewer bad incidents, less-experienced drivers will have more of them.

Todd runs Traquest events very well, and is pretty good at slowly filtering out the less effective instructors. GhettoRacer might be a great driver. I don't know. The problem here might be his writing style more than anything else. But his flip assessment of what caused my crash wouldn't fill me with confidence about tossing him my keys.

kary993

I have to agree that GhettoRacer is not showing the good side of Tracquest. I have never driven a Tracquest event but have met and run with Todd in other events and find from that experience that GhettoRacer is not the norm for that organization in my opinion.

For those that are new to track events and want an instructor (probably not many on this forum, but anyway) I recommend that you ride with the instructor in their car to see the line. This way no one needs to worry about the instructor driving the car and student worrying about the instructors abilities.

This will of course eliminate people like GhettoRacer from getting into trouble with something they cannot afford to replace and will accomplish what the real goal of the track events are, that is students learning driving lines, corner worker flags and positions, safe passing, etc......

Sorry GhettoRacer, whatever you were trying to convey here came off like a turd in the pool and I doubt anyone will really want you as an instructor if they have read this thread. I only wish I knew your full name so I can warn people that are going to the upcoming events in the Bay Area
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