GT3 cup car costs to race
01-08-2005, 03:37 PM
#1
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GT3 cup car costs to race
Hi,
I posted this on the GT3 forum and have some replies but was told to post here too.
I am considering a GT3 cup car for PCA GTC and SCCA GT2 class.
Looking for some ballpark numbers for racing expenses for these cars, or how much more than a stock class car it usually costs. This year my race costs were extremely high due to 2 complete engine rebuilds (missed shift and broken crankshaft) so it would have been cheaper to race a GT3, with more similar competition.
Any feedback appreciated, or leads for a late model or completely upgraded car. Feel free to post in the GT3 forum if you'd like.
THANKS!
I posted this on the GT3 forum and have some replies but was told to post here too.
I am considering a GT3 cup car for PCA GTC and SCCA GT2 class.
Looking for some ballpark numbers for racing expenses for these cars, or how much more than a stock class car it usually costs. This year my race costs were extremely high due to 2 complete engine rebuilds (missed shift and broken crankshaft) so it would have been cheaper to race a GT3, with more similar competition.
Any feedback appreciated, or leads for a late model or completely upgraded car. Feel free to post in the GT3 forum if you'd like.
THANKS!
01-08-2005, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by analogmike
Hi,
I posted this on the GT3 forum and have some replies but was told to post here too.
I am considering a GT3 cup car for PCA GTC and SCCA GT2 class.
Looking for some ballpark numbers for racing expenses for these cars, or how much more than a stock class car it usually costs. This year my race costs were extremely high due to 2 complete engine rebuilds (missed shift and broken crankshaft) so it would have been cheaper to race a GT3, with more similar competition.
Any feedback appreciated, or leads for a late model or completely upgraded car. Feel free to post in the GT3 forum if you'd like.
THANKS!
I posted this on the GT3 forum and have some replies but was told to post here too.
I am considering a GT3 cup car for PCA GTC and SCCA GT2 class.
Looking for some ballpark numbers for racing expenses for these cars, or how much more than a stock class car it usually costs. This year my race costs were extremely high due to 2 complete engine rebuilds (missed shift and broken crankshaft) so it would have been cheaper to race a GT3, with more similar competition.
Any feedback appreciated, or leads for a late model or completely upgraded car. Feel free to post in the GT3 forum if you'd like.
THANKS!
01-08-2005, 06:42 PM
#3
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Hey Mike
Why don't you buy Jim Newman's 964 USA Cup see add here.
They are great cars and he has it listed for a pretty good price. How did your engine turn out after CMP ? I have also been thinking about a GT3 Cup, but think I am going to spend some more time in D class. My car has been great, but I will admit that it would be nice to have more cars in D class. Still there will be 10 or so racing D at Sebring and WG always has a good field of D cars ( 20 last year ). The problem with the GT3 Cups is they will require a 40 k engine rebuild every 60- 80 hrs. or so. Also slicks are expensive and don't last as long as Hoosiers or MPSC's. The USA Cups have great performance and are relatively inexpensive to race. The 964 Euro Cup is another good alternative, but again you will have to buy slicks.
Bill
Why don't you buy Jim Newman's 964 USA Cup see add here.
They are great cars and he has it listed for a pretty good price. How did your engine turn out after CMP ? I have also been thinking about a GT3 Cup, but think I am going to spend some more time in D class. My car has been great, but I will admit that it would be nice to have more cars in D class. Still there will be 10 or so racing D at Sebring and WG always has a good field of D cars ( 20 last year ). The problem with the GT3 Cups is they will require a 40 k engine rebuild every 60- 80 hrs. or so. Also slicks are expensive and don't last as long as Hoosiers or MPSC's. The USA Cups have great performance and are relatively inexpensive to race. The 964 Euro Cup is another good alternative, but again you will have to buy slicks.
Bill
Last edited by carreracup21; 01-08-2005 at 07:01 PM.
01-08-2005, 06:53 PM
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Hey Mike;
Of course you have up front costs like getting tanks, guns, wands, extra wheels, etc., etc. Nice if they come with the car. Figure $1500 per weekend for tires. $200 per for fuel. That's really about it.
Depending on how proactive or brave you are, look for about $15k every 40-80 hours for freshening. Double that at least for a rebuild if you push your luck too far, or it blows on its own.
Cup cars are reasonably economical because they are reliable if properly built. No more chasing 30-year-old time bomb technology. Just shut up and drive.
Easy to drive... to a point. You can be a GTC road block without any talent at all, and go faster than you ever have by far. If you want to be competitive, you better be good because the last 10-15% is awful hard to access, and there's some great GTC drivers out there. Stiff setup means twitchy handling at the limit. Gotta like going REAL fast and scaring yourself to get there.
You're probably good enough, I'd wager. The question is can you afford it and do you want to go that fast? The latter is the tough question in my book.
Of course you have up front costs like getting tanks, guns, wands, extra wheels, etc., etc. Nice if they come with the car. Figure $1500 per weekend for tires. $200 per for fuel. That's really about it.
Depending on how proactive or brave you are, look for about $15k every 40-80 hours for freshening. Double that at least for a rebuild if you push your luck too far, or it blows on its own.
Cup cars are reasonably economical because they are reliable if properly built. No more chasing 30-year-old time bomb technology. Just shut up and drive.
Easy to drive... to a point. You can be a GTC road block without any talent at all, and go faster than you ever have by far. If you want to be competitive, you better be good because the last 10-15% is awful hard to access, and there's some great GTC drivers out there. Stiff setup means twitchy handling at the limit. Gotta like going REAL fast and scaring yourself to get there.
You're probably good enough, I'd wager. The question is can you afford it and do you want to go that fast? The latter is the tough question in my book.
01-08-2005, 06:56 PM
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RJay,
Thanks for the note, I remember you from the Zone1.
I might sell the Prozac (!) car if I get a GT3 cup, but might keep it as I have as much in it as a decent cup car and would have to get a lot for it.
Bill,
Jim's US 964 cup car looks great, would make an awesome D car like yours. I'm scared to see how fast you will be after several races, they will have to move your car to GTC if you go faster than Scotto/Savenor/Burger!!!
The GT3 cup car will allow me to race in SCCA nationals races and see how close I can get to the few really fast GT2 cars. THis is the last year for the Nationals at Mid Ohio so I would like to try to run it. If it rains a GT3 cup could win, especially with all my wet experience.
My 2.7 crankshaft broke in the fun race at CMP and I am not pushing them to do a quick repair since I won't need the car for a while. But getting the MFI redone while it's out so you can breathe easier when you are behind me
Have fun!!
Thanks for the note, I remember you from the Zone1.
I might sell the Prozac (!) car if I get a GT3 cup, but might keep it as I have as much in it as a decent cup car and would have to get a lot for it.
Bill,
Jim's US 964 cup car looks great, would make an awesome D car like yours. I'm scared to see how fast you will be after several races, they will have to move your car to GTC if you go faster than Scotto/Savenor/Burger!!!
The GT3 cup car will allow me to race in SCCA nationals races and see how close I can get to the few really fast GT2 cars. THis is the last year for the Nationals at Mid Ohio so I would like to try to run it. If it rains a GT3 cup could win, especially with all my wet experience.
My 2.7 crankshaft broke in the fun race at CMP and I am not pushing them to do a quick repair since I won't need the car for a while. But getting the MFI redone while it's out so you can breathe easier when you are behind me
Have fun!!
01-08-2005, 07:05 PM
#6
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Crankshaft ? Yikes $$$ I remember we only thought it was a rod bearing. OK hang in there. I'll be doing Road Atlanta, Sebring and WG. Still undecided on Mid-Ohio. Hope to see you back out there soon !!
01-09-2005, 11:15 AM
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Here are my costs for operating a GT3 Cup in a Club Race:
Tires: Michelin Slicks - 1 set per race weekend: ~$1450
Gas: 100 octane no-lead - ~35 gals per weekend: ~$225
Front Brake Pads: 1 pair per 3 weekends at $500/pair: $165
Front Brake Rotors: 1 pair per 6 weekends at $600/pair: $100
Motor Rebuild: Every 60 hours at $20,000 (figue 3 hours per weekend): $1,000
Tranny Rebuild: Every 20 Events at $4,000: $200
Oil Change & Plugs: I change oil every weekend and plugs every third: $100
While these numbers may seem high to some people, I think that if you do the math on a shop built racecar they are MUCH higher. The biggest difference is that nothing ever breaks on the Cup cars (as long as you don't hit anything or zoot the motor with a missed shift. The cars are really bomb-proof racecars. I think if you accurately look at the numbers they cost roughly the same as a competitive D car. Now, I know people are going to balk at that and point to the engine rebuild, but do you really think that a stock car gets much more than 60 hard track hours out of it before the leakdown starts falling off?
Tires: Michelin Slicks - 1 set per race weekend: ~$1450
Gas: 100 octane no-lead - ~35 gals per weekend: ~$225
Front Brake Pads: 1 pair per 3 weekends at $500/pair: $165
Front Brake Rotors: 1 pair per 6 weekends at $600/pair: $100
Motor Rebuild: Every 60 hours at $20,000 (figue 3 hours per weekend): $1,000
Tranny Rebuild: Every 20 Events at $4,000: $200
Oil Change & Plugs: I change oil every weekend and plugs every third: $100
While these numbers may seem high to some people, I think that if you do the math on a shop built racecar they are MUCH higher. The biggest difference is that nothing ever breaks on the Cup cars (as long as you don't hit anything or zoot the motor with a missed shift. The cars are really bomb-proof racecars. I think if you accurately look at the numbers they cost roughly the same as a competitive D car. Now, I know people are going to balk at that and point to the engine rebuild, but do you really think that a stock car gets much more than 60 hard track hours out of it before the leakdown starts falling off?
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01-09-2005, 11:52 AM
#8
Originally Posted by PatK-Mpls
Here are my costs for operating a GT3 Cup in a Club Race:
Tires: Michelin Slicks - 1 set per race weekend: ~$1450
Gas: 100 octane no-lead - ~35 gals per weekend: ~$225
Front Brake Pads: 1 pair per 3 weekends at $500/pair: $165
Front Brake Rotors: 1 pair per 6 weekends at $600/pair: $100
Motor Rebuild: Every 60 hours at $20,000 (figue 3 hours per weekend): $1,000
Tranny Rebuild: Every 20 Events at $4,000: $200
Oil Change & Plugs: I change oil every weekend and plugs every third: $100
While these numbers may seem high to some people, I think that if you do the math on a shop built racecar they are MUCH higher. The biggest difference is that nothing ever breaks on the Cup cars (as long as you don't hit anything or zoot the motor with a missed shift. The cars are really bomb-proof racecars. I think if you accurately look at the numbers they cost roughly the same as a competitive D car. Now, I know people are going to balk at that and point to the engine rebuild, but do you really think that a stock car gets much more than 60 hard track hours out of it before the leakdown starts falling off?
Tires: Michelin Slicks - 1 set per race weekend: ~$1450
Gas: 100 octane no-lead - ~35 gals per weekend: ~$225
Front Brake Pads: 1 pair per 3 weekends at $500/pair: $165
Front Brake Rotors: 1 pair per 6 weekends at $600/pair: $100
Motor Rebuild: Every 60 hours at $20,000 (figue 3 hours per weekend): $1,000
Tranny Rebuild: Every 20 Events at $4,000: $200
Oil Change & Plugs: I change oil every weekend and plugs every third: $100
While these numbers may seem high to some people, I think that if you do the math on a shop built racecar they are MUCH higher. The biggest difference is that nothing ever breaks on the Cup cars (as long as you don't hit anything or zoot the motor with a missed shift. The cars are really bomb-proof racecars. I think if you accurately look at the numbers they cost roughly the same as a competitive D car. Now, I know people are going to balk at that and point to the engine rebuild, but do you really think that a stock car gets much more than 60 hard track hours out of it before the leakdown starts falling off?
Hope that helps!
01-09-2005, 11:57 AM
#9
Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Hey Mike;
Of course you have up front costs like getting tanks, guns, wands, extra wheels, etc., etc. Nice if they come with the car. Figure $1500 per weekend for tires. $200 per for fuel. That's really about it.
Depending on how proactive or brave you are, look for about $15k every 40-80 hours for freshening. Double that at least for a rebuild if you push your luck too far, or it blows on its own.
Cup cars are reasonably economical because they are reliable if properly built. No more chasing 30-year-old time bomb technology. Just shut up and drive.
Easy to drive... to a point. You can be a GTC road block without any talent at all, and go faster than you ever have by far. If you want to be competitive, you better be good because the last 10-15% is awful hard to access, and there's some great GTC drivers out there. Stiff setup means twitchy handling at the limit. Gotta like going REAL fast and scaring yourself to get there.
You're probably good enough, I'd wager. The question is can you afford it and do you want to go that fast? The latter is the tough question in my book.
Of course you have up front costs like getting tanks, guns, wands, extra wheels, etc., etc. Nice if they come with the car. Figure $1500 per weekend for tires. $200 per for fuel. That's really about it.
Depending on how proactive or brave you are, look for about $15k every 40-80 hours for freshening. Double that at least for a rebuild if you push your luck too far, or it blows on its own.
Cup cars are reasonably economical because they are reliable if properly built. No more chasing 30-year-old time bomb technology. Just shut up and drive.
Easy to drive... to a point. You can be a GTC road block without any talent at all, and go faster than you ever have by far. If you want to be competitive, you better be good because the last 10-15% is awful hard to access, and there's some great GTC drivers out there. Stiff setup means twitchy handling at the limit. Gotta like going REAL fast and scaring yourself to get there.
You're probably good enough, I'd wager. The question is can you afford it and do you want to go that fast? The latter is the tough question in my book.
John, on a seperate note, I sincerely admire Your work and always read Your posts with great interest. I enjoy Your perspective !
01-09-2005, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PatK-Mpls
While these numbers may seem high to some people, I think that if you do the math on a shop built racecar they are MUCH higher. The biggest difference is that nothing ever breaks on the Cup cars (as long as you don't hit anything or zoot the motor with a missed shift. The cars are really bomb-proof racecars. I think if you accurately look at the numbers they cost roughly the same as a competitive D car. Now, I know people are going to balk at that and point to the engine rebuild, but do you really think that a stock car gets much more than 60 hard track hours out of it before the leakdown starts falling off?
Last edited by carreracup21; 01-09-2005 at 01:53 PM.
01-09-2005, 01:43 PM
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Hey Glen;
You're quite kind, Sir. When you love what you do, it shows, I guess. ...And back at you. Perspective is interesting, in that I'm "no-where" in relative terms to most here. I drive a tiddler only recreationally, and tow/maintain the rockets for someone else. Call me Coach and Thinker, I guess, not the frontline Man in Nomex.
And I do agree, the 996 Cup cars are tanks. I don't really know where the point of diminishing return is on engine life, but I do know that it is much easier to find out how far a Cup engine will go... compared to a fan-based GT car. They NEVER RUN right, so who would know?! The 996 Cuppies are Arrive & Drive cars. After years of chasing an air cooled GT car that did not run right a third of the time and failed another third, the Cup car is a dream!
Interestingly, Man-in-Nomex says the GT car was more fun to drive because it was lighter & quicker, and more toss-able. The Cup car is more demanding in that it is heavier and much edgier. In the end, actually getting to drive wins out over trying to get the damn GT car to PERFORM properly while spending at LEAST as much money.
Looking forward to Sebring!
You're quite kind, Sir. When you love what you do, it shows, I guess. ...And back at you. Perspective is interesting, in that I'm "no-where" in relative terms to most here. I drive a tiddler only recreationally, and tow/maintain the rockets for someone else. Call me Coach and Thinker, I guess, not the frontline Man in Nomex.
And I do agree, the 996 Cup cars are tanks. I don't really know where the point of diminishing return is on engine life, but I do know that it is much easier to find out how far a Cup engine will go... compared to a fan-based GT car. They NEVER RUN right, so who would know?! The 996 Cuppies are Arrive & Drive cars. After years of chasing an air cooled GT car that did not run right a third of the time and failed another third, the Cup car is a dream!
Interestingly, Man-in-Nomex says the GT car was more fun to drive because it was lighter & quicker, and more toss-able. The Cup car is more demanding in that it is heavier and much edgier. In the end, actually getting to drive wins out over trying to get the damn GT car to PERFORM properly while spending at LEAST as much money.
Looking forward to Sebring!
01-09-2005, 06:52 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Damn Kim, i wasn't going to say it but I completely agree. SM goes national in 2006 and it is my long term goal to go to the runoffs. I have a lot of learning to do though.
GTC3 is like SM for the really rich and fast guys. Closest thing to spec racing in a Porsche, tons of competition and the ability to run SCCA GT2 is very appealing. IF you can afford it Mike, DO IT!
... we also came from an F car to a D class USA cup and can get our investment back any day of the week.
Glen, did you buy a yellow 911SC thats yellow running in F down in your area?. If so, please PM me. I know the car VERY well.
GTC3 is like SM for the really rich and fast guys. Closest thing to spec racing in a Porsche, tons of competition and the ability to run SCCA GT2 is very appealing. IF you can afford it Mike, DO IT!
... we also came from an F car to a D class USA cup and can get our investment back any day of the week.
Glen, did you buy a yellow 911SC thats yellow running in F down in your area?. If so, please PM me. I know the car VERY well.
01-09-2005, 07:12 PM
#14
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HI,
Thanks for the replies! Looks like about $3K per weekend, I was doing $1.5K or closer to $1K with my D or E class RS clone. I love practicing on old tires and only running new tires for 2 sessions (qualifying and race). It's like the rings they put on the baseball bats in the on deck circle. So I doubt I would use a new set per race. Also easy to get slightly used tires from pro races. I can run the new hoosiers for several races without any increase in lap times the way I use them, but I guess the slicks just don't last like Hoosiers.
Hey John, good to hear from you! My 1st time at the Glen in '98 you helped me out a lot. I love the track and lap times are faster than I can believe but the track HATES me... 2 engines, 2 fenders, and 2 bumpers in 3 races
The GT3 cup engine is pretty much a stock street engine like my 2.7RS. Mine could last literally hundreds of race hours (if I could shift the damn thing). 60 hours seems conservative but Porsche should know what they are doing. I am also VERY easy on trannies as I grandma shift. I drive mine down to Fairbanks every 2-4 years as I get nervous, when we take it apart it's usually fine. And I only change the Swepco once a year or so.
I saw Glen's car for sale a few weeks ago, he has done really well with it against some pro drivers in new cars. Interesting, looks like updates can work.
Bill, about the 964 engines life... Oliver's C2 was VERY VERY fast with over 100K on the original engine, with several years of track events. So you may never need to rebuild yours if you don't drive it on the street. His tranny was also fine for even longer, it locked up in the enduro in 2003 (after I gave up trying to catch him and was in the pits!).
Right now I seem to have enough money for a nice cup car and year of racing. May never have this cash flow again, so might as well go for it, you only live once! But 1st i have to make sure that a frivolous lawsuit against me for a street accident 2 years ago gets settled... if so I will be in good shape.
Thanks for the replies! Looks like about $3K per weekend, I was doing $1.5K or closer to $1K with my D or E class RS clone. I love practicing on old tires and only running new tires for 2 sessions (qualifying and race). It's like the rings they put on the baseball bats in the on deck circle. So I doubt I would use a new set per race. Also easy to get slightly used tires from pro races. I can run the new hoosiers for several races without any increase in lap times the way I use them, but I guess the slicks just don't last like Hoosiers.
Hey John, good to hear from you! My 1st time at the Glen in '98 you helped me out a lot. I love the track and lap times are faster than I can believe but the track HATES me... 2 engines, 2 fenders, and 2 bumpers in 3 races
The GT3 cup engine is pretty much a stock street engine like my 2.7RS. Mine could last literally hundreds of race hours (if I could shift the damn thing). 60 hours seems conservative but Porsche should know what they are doing. I am also VERY easy on trannies as I grandma shift. I drive mine down to Fairbanks every 2-4 years as I get nervous, when we take it apart it's usually fine. And I only change the Swepco once a year or so.
I saw Glen's car for sale a few weeks ago, he has done really well with it against some pro drivers in new cars. Interesting, looks like updates can work.
Bill, about the 964 engines life... Oliver's C2 was VERY VERY fast with over 100K on the original engine, with several years of track events. So you may never need to rebuild yours if you don't drive it on the street. His tranny was also fine for even longer, it locked up in the enduro in 2003 (after I gave up trying to catch him and was in the pits!).
Right now I seem to have enough money for a nice cup car and year of racing. May never have this cash flow again, so might as well go for it, you only live once! But 1st i have to make sure that a frivolous lawsuit against me for a street accident 2 years ago gets settled... if so I will be in good shape.
01-09-2005, 07:45 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Mike,
I am sure you've done your homework and know that the 996cups have gotten significantly better as the years from 1999-2005 progressed. For club racing I think a car like Glen's with the right updates would be perfect. Another place where some great cups are for sale is autometricsmotorsports.com , maybe a tad on the high side price wise though. Jim Newman, or Clubrcr, has more knowledge of these cars and specific chassis than anyone I know. I bet he'd help you out as well. Some car find there was into the states and after heavy pro racing are just not the same, even with freshening.
PS, did Oliver put 100k miles on his motor after he bent the valves at his first PCA race a few years ago?
I am sure you've done your homework and know that the 996cups have gotten significantly better as the years from 1999-2005 progressed. For club racing I think a car like Glen's with the right updates would be perfect. Another place where some great cups are for sale is autometricsmotorsports.com , maybe a tad on the high side price wise though. Jim Newman, or Clubrcr, has more knowledge of these cars and specific chassis than anyone I know. I bet he'd help you out as well. Some car find there was into the states and after heavy pro racing are just not the same, even with freshening.
PS, did Oliver put 100k miles on his motor after he bent the valves at his first PCA race a few years ago?