A simple question about the so-called "bubble"
11-15-2015, 08:02 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Definitely agree how we see and use/not use fancy sports cars is very much a function of phase of life.
I would only add that this year I took my 19 year old oldest son out with me to learn tracking for the first time. By summer we had done 3 track days. He drove his Jetta on the first day, then my M3 then my 997 CS. I coached him the second and third days. He has talent!! Now THAT was a fun time!
I would only add that this year I took my 19 year old oldest son out with me to learn tracking for the first time. By summer we had done 3 track days. He drove his Jetta on the first day, then my M3 then my 997 CS. I coached him the second and third days. He has talent!! Now THAT was a fun time!
11-15-2015, 10:39 PM
#47
I would only add that this year I took my 19 year old oldest son out with me to learn tracking for the first time. By summer we had done 3 track days. He drove his Jetta on the first day, then my M3 then my 997 CS. I coached him the second and third days. He has talent!! Now THAT was a fun time!
11-16-2015, 04:34 PM
#48
I can think of only two reasons not to put miles on cars like these.
1) Bragging rights. "I own this car and it only has xx miles on it"
2) The long term objective is to one day sell it for as much money as possible, or pass it on to heirs while maintaining as much value as possible. Either way the car is held as a financial investment.
I don't see how either of these is consistent with being a car enthusiast. Cars are built with a primary purpose to be driven.
Different owners obviously own cars for different reasons. If an owner truly enjoys just looking at a car then more power to them. For each their own. My love for cars started when I was in grade school. Back then I never dreamed of owning super cars so I could look at them in my garage. The same holds true today. Oh and once again, if rates go up, no I am not selling.
11-17-2015, 09:32 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
The F40, as an example that someone brought up, is my all time favorite looking car but, the problem with the "oldies" in my experience, is that there's always something wrong with them. Unless I am able to have a full time mechanic going through them all the time, then it's probably better just to look at them. Personally, I like driving them and given that I have limited space, time and money, choices must be made.
One problem I see with (mentally) moving them into the investment space is that to be an effective investor, one must be dispassionate - which is exactly opposite to how I feel about cars.
One problem I see with (mentally) moving them into the investment space is that to be an effective investor, one must be dispassionate - which is exactly opposite to how I feel about cars.
11-17-2015, 10:20 AM
#50
Drifting
The F40, as an example that someone brought up, is my all time favorite looking car but, the problem with the "oldies" in my experience, is that there's always something wrong with them. Unless I am able to have a full time mechanic going through them all the time, then it's probably better just to look at them. Personally, I like driving them and given that I have limited space, time and money, choices must be made.
One problem I see with (mentally) moving them into the investment space is that to be an effective investor, one must be dispassionate - which is exactly opposite to how I feel about cars.
One problem I see with (mentally) moving them into the investment space is that to be an effective investor, one must be dispassionate - which is exactly opposite to how I feel about cars.
Driven maintained they will perform as the factory intended.
These older cars have known issues which skilled mechanics are more than aware of it's simply a matter of the owners willingness to service their exotics.
Anyway CGT owners pulling the engine and doing preventative maintenance now that their values are up vs down. There is no way a CGT with delivery miles is mechanically a better car than one with miles properly maintained.
It's funny - take the old GTO's that have been wrecked raced you name it and they call it provenance but take a CGT with 30k miles beautifully maintained and its a beater personally think everyone who let's these cars sit admiring their odometer is missing out but to each their own as you said the passion just isn't there. These cars are the cheapest mistress one will ever have and why one places a hot mistress in storage is beyond me.
11-17-2015, 12:11 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
To be clear that I'm not looking to create an argument with Nuvolari, I'm referring here to modern cars that have been in the right collections from new; for sure older cars that have been simply parked for long periods will have certain issues.
11-17-2015, 01:01 PM
#52
Drifting
Interesting points by both of you. I will add when you are buying a pre-owned CGT, 4.0RS, F40 or any similar type car the ownership history is absolutely critical. Even with financial resources available not everybody cares for their cars in the same manner.
I have seen the way secret collector keeps his cars and wouldn't hesitate to buy from him. I have flown across the country looking to buy cars and have returned to LA many times passing on the car. I personally drive all my cars and I never worry about the miles. I've probably driven 250,000 miles in P-cars!!! Besides for my kids there is nothing that makes me happier.
I have seen the way secret collector keeps his cars and wouldn't hesitate to buy from him. I have flown across the country looking to buy cars and have returned to LA many times passing on the car. I personally drive all my cars and I never worry about the miles. I've probably driven 250,000 miles in P-cars!!! Besides for my kids there is nothing that makes me happier.
11-17-2015, 08:29 PM
#53
Drifting
This is such a fallacy. Somewhere along the line, it entered the body of public knowledge that cars that are never driven have inherent mechanical issues that require huge sums to rectify. This is true if they are not properly maintained, no doubt. However, today's serious collectors have the financial resources and expertise to properly maintain delivery-mileage cars from new with techniques that undoubtedly leave them in finer condition than any example that has been used. Remember, these are cars we're talking about - they're not organic and don't have self-healing properties. Any time you drive a car, you're creating wear and friction that lessens the original condition of each part.
To be clear that I'm not looking to create an argument with Nuvolari, I'm referring here to modern cars that have been in the right collections from new; for sure older cars that have been simply parked for long periods will have certain issues.
To be clear that I'm not looking to create an argument with Nuvolari, I'm referring here to modern cars that have been in the right collections from new; for sure older cars that have been simply parked for long periods will have certain issues.
Agree no argument but very few people care about their unused exotic.
Purchased a Healey that was dry rot - which was fine but as I took it apart an old aluminum can was welded into the body. The car was represented as driven to the country club 3 Sundays a year for decades.
Anyway - I don't trust any cars past the first owner too much brain damage.
11-17-2015, 10:30 PM
#54
This is such a fallacy. Somewhere along the line, it entered the body of public knowledge that cars that are never driven have inherent mechanical issues that require huge sums to rectify. This is true if they are not properly maintained, no doubt. However, today's serious collectors have the financial resources and expertise to properly maintain delivery-mileage cars from new with techniques that undoubtedly leave them in finer condition than any example that has been used. Remember, these are cars we're talking about - they're not organic and don't have self-healing properties. Any time you drive a car, you're creating wear and friction that lessens the original condition of each part.
To be clear that I'm not looking to create an argument with Nuvolari, I'm referring here to modern cars that have been in the right collections from new; for sure older cars that have been simply parked for long periods will have certain issues.
To be clear that I'm not looking to create an argument with Nuvolari, I'm referring here to modern cars that have been in the right collections from new; for sure older cars that have been simply parked for long periods will have certain issues.
I find serious collectors will maintain low mile cars but average owner who just bought a car years ago and never used it won't do much service , and neither will your average exotic dealer if the car has low miles and looks great. Personally I think the entire in the wrapper delivery mile car premium has been stretched a bit too far right now in the modern/semi modern porsche world, but that is just my opinion. I mean do the math, if guys are still trying to sell delivery mile gt3 rs 4.0 for literally 2x what a 5k mile car is worth (this is what the market was doing 6 months ago) ... then how collectible exactly is that car if your depreciation in the first 5k miles will be worse than a new mini van. I think its always smart to buy the best condition lowest mile you can afford , however only so much of a premium makes sense for just a few thousand miles...
11-17-2015, 10:54 PM
#55
This is such a fallacy. Somewhere along the line, it entered the body of public knowledge that cars that are never driven have inherent mechanical issues that require huge sums to rectify. This is true if they are not properly maintained, no doubt. However, today's serious collectors have the financial resources and expertise to properly maintain delivery-mileage cars from new with techniques that undoubtedly leave them in finer condition than any example that has been used. Remember, these are cars we're talking about - they're not organic and don't have self-healing properties. Any time you drive a car, you're creating wear and friction that lessens the original condition of each part.
To be clear that I'm not looking to create an argument with Nuvolari, I'm referring here to modern cars that have been in the right collections from new; for sure older cars that have been simply parked for long periods will have certain issues.
To be clear that I'm not looking to create an argument with Nuvolari, I'm referring here to modern cars that have been in the right collections from new; for sure older cars that have been simply parked for long periods will have certain issues.
11-18-2015, 09:29 AM
#56
Drifting
I find serious collectors will maintain low mile cars but average owner who just bought a car years ago and never used it won't do much service , and neither will your average exotic dealer if the car has low miles and looks great. Personally I think the entire in the wrapper delivery mile car premium has been stretched a bit too far right now in the modern/semi modern porsche world, but that is just my opinion. I mean do the math, if guys are still trying to sell delivery mile gt3 rs 4.0 for literally 2x what a 5k mile car is worth (this is what the market was doing 6 months ago) ... then how collectible exactly is that car if your depreciation in the first 5k miles will be worse than a new mini van. I think its always smart to buy the best condition lowest mile you can afford , however only so much of a premium makes sense for just a few thousand miles...
Qualified programs like F1 Mclaren and Ferrari Classiche - road going to maintain authenticity shatter that mold.
Porsche should do something similar and those wrapped cars would be perhaps worth less as the program would require participation events creating heritage and provenance while insuring it's authenticity.
Last edited by nuvolari612; 11-18-2015 at 10:27 PM.