Z356

Is it too early to start discussing all we know so far on the upcoming 960? I don't think so. Yet we have not heard much news in the past year. I think part of the reason is that Porsche would like everyone to focus on the 918 Spyder, which is here, now...and still available for purchase. Understandable, from their point of view. But what is the latest on the 960 FeFi project? Not so much news...so far.

Dated Jan of 2013 - nearly one year ago! By respected auto journalist Georg Kacher:

http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...rrari_fighter/

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Dated September 2013 from 'Automotive News' after an interview with Porsche CEO Matthias Mueller:

"960: While Mueller has said it's not a priority, Porsche continues developing a two-seat mid-engine coupe to slot into the wide space between the 911 and the 918 Spyder. Dubbed "FeFi" inside the company -- for Ferrari fighter -- it could debut in 2017. The vehicle's price could start around 200,000 euros (roughly $267,000 at current rates). According to one report, the vehicle could use a 3.9-liter boxer eight-cylinder engine with four turbochargers producing 650 hp. Engineers would employ liberal use of aluminum and composites in the architecture to limit the weight to 3,000 pounds. All-wheel drive is likely."

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#ixzz2p0UMPGE3

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Here on this forum, I have seen the following recent 960-related posts:

Is the 960 going to be buili on the next Audi/Lambo platform? Maybe not.

"With Porsche put in charge of sports car and luxury sedan development at the Volkswagen Group, we’re going to start seeing the sports car brand developing a greater number of models for fellow Volkswagen Group brands, including the likes of Audi and Bentley. Such a task is made possible due to the development of a newrange of modular platforms, in particular, the 'Modular Standard Platform' from Porsche. This platform, known as the 'Modularer Standardantrieb-Baukasten' in German, is for a conventional front-engine, rear-wheel drive layout, hence the word 'standard' in its title. A variation of this platform, the 'Modularer Sport-Baukasten', or 'Modular Sport Platform', is also being developed, and this one will feature engines in either a mid or rear position. The Modular Sport Platform will be used for a range of future sports cars from the Volkswagen Group, including the next 911.

It was previously thought that this platform would also spawn the next-generation Audi R8 and Lamborghini Gallardo replacement, but 'Car and Driver' is reporting that the next R8 will stick to an Audi platform, which means it’s likely the Gallardo replacement will too. Apparently the next R8, which is expected to arrive in late 2014, is already too far into its development to switch to Porsche’s Modular Sport Platform."

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...latform-report

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-detailed-news

So couldn't the upcoming 960 be developed from a modified 'Modularer Sport-Baukasten' as designed by Porsche, closer to the one on the 918, than the Audi one being used for the next R8 or Lamborghini Gallardo replacement?

I understand that Porsche's plan is to try to complete the full production of the 918 Spyder by end of calendar year 2014. So the 918 will be out of the way, marketing wise, pretty soon.

But coming up quickly for Porsche is what to do about gt3 competition racing and the ability of their products to stay competitive at the racing tracks all over the globe! That is where the 960 comes in. I believe that we will see this car introduced much earlier than anticipated due to competitive NECESSITY, if nothing else. The current Euro 6 cycle emissions discussions about the 991 gt3 and RS are just part of the problem. Porsche needs to supply its loyal racing customers with a new platform that can be competitive against the next generation 458, etc. Plus in relative terms, be reasonably affordable. Enters the 960.

Hope this stimulates some discussion on the subject. Looking forward to other points of view.

Happy New Year,
Eduardo
Carmel

brake dust

Thanks for posting Z356.

The 960 fits perfectly into the both the product line as well as Motorsport activities. Believe the production numbers stated in the first article are way off! With the 997.2 GT3/RS total USA production numbers at 1,000 over two years, would expect the 960 numbers being being on the south side of those numbers.

With the 991 RSR still running the Mezger engine, I agree that the 960 will take the place of the 911 in top level motorsport. It appears that Porsche is in a holding pattern, waiting for the final technical regulations from the AC)/FIA. Don't think we will see the 9A1 competing in endurance races. I also believe that more and more manufacturers find that these regulations are the most relevant to their products - so we will see increased manufacturer involvement in the next several years.

The 918 is a technological marvel (like the 959). It's a beautifully styled car as well. Have always liked the style of Ferrari's, but the LaFe looks like it's trying "too hard" to look exotic. Same for the P1 - guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Believe the 960 will be a home run for Porsche! I'll take mine in birch green!!

CarMaven

Porsche's in charge of Sports car chassis, Sports Sedan Chassis, and Hybrid drive trains (along with another major one I can't remember at the moment) in the VAG Group; so it will almost assuredly be based off of one of their platforms, yes.

We've heard things from Flat 8, flat sixes, turbocharged versions of either, etc, from various media. However, the simplest solutions appears to be the V8 currently in the 918 Spyder.

Either way: Porsche won't release the 960, until they exhaust their allotment of 918 Spyders, which may not be until 1-4 years after the 918 sells out to begin with, in hopefully (for them/us) 2014, or 2015? So you're right there Eduardo. 2017, or sometime around then, sounds right for a possible 960 Porsche.

The car won't be cheap though. I've seen ranges of $267-000 to $370,000 tossed around. Of course, the final price, will be determined by the uniqueness of the vehicle and the current market when/if Porsche finally decides to build one?

It's certainly being billed as a 458 fighter, perched or starting above the GT2 price point, as a mid-engined Porsche alternative.

Porsche's publicly stated, they want some of that mid-engined business at that $$ point in the future.

We'll see?

CarMaven

Eduardo, I just saw your last point, regarding competitive racing (along with brake dust), and that's a good one.

Will Porsche continue with the new 991 GT3 in racing, or will they switch altogether to the 960 platform and engine, or do both (and how soon after 918 production ends, with out pissing off their $900,000 customers, if it's too soon)?

Great point/post/response guys.

Z356

Well, the 918 Spyder has a 4.6 liter v8. I would have thought that would be perfect for the 960 too. But the reports coming from Georg Kacher and others point to a smaller 3.9 liter Boxer eight. So not a v8 at all. But unlike the naturally aspirated 4.6 v8 of the Spyder, the 960's motor would feature 'four turbochargers, two intercoolers, four adjustable camshafts, a complex multistage intake manifold, and dual-stage exhaust'. Quite the beast! I bet the Cycle 6 Euro emissions have something to do with it. Turbos & PDK - our future.

Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...#ixzz2p5FcCtIu

We will have to wait and see. The 918 examples of the 918 Spyder will be spoken for shortly. Porsche is mounting an all-out sales offensive to get everyone of these 918 examples SOLD. It will be a monumental marketing & public relation disaster for Porsche if those cars are not 'sold out' by mid-2014, at the latest! And the information I have received from a current Spyder customer is that all 918 production vehicles are expected to be completed within 12 months of the start of production. So if the latter is scheduled now to start in March 2014, then the line at Zuffenhausen is expected to close by March 2015 - if not before.

From my perspective as a potential 960 customer, the upside of this whole 918 Spyder limited production supercar is spreading the cost of its sophisticated materials, chassis, suspension & engine development across a wider spectrum of vehicles. Many aspects of the technology that Porsche specifically developed for 918 will be (hopefully) incorporated into the 960...but its cost will not be necessarily assigned to it. Those are being amortized by the wealthy 918 customers. That is my hope, at least.

In my opinion, the 918 Spyder/$900K+ customers will not mind too much. The 960 will be slightly slower & will not have the hybrid capabilities. It will be relatively cheap at under $300K. Every Tom, Dick and Harry at their Country Club or Corporate Board of Directors can buy a $300K sport car (Ferrari, etc), but only less than 1000 privileged folks in the entire world can say they spent nearly $1 million for their distinct steed.

It will be interesting to see how this develops. My gut feeling is that the 960 will be produced at nearly the levels of gt3 or gt3 RS numbers from the recent past. This will be, in effect, a replacement for the 911 gt3 in the Porsche line up!


Yes, we have talked in this other thread* about the changing technical regulations from the ACO/FIA ref: the gt3 before and I agree that this is most important:

https://sportscargeek.wordpress.com/tag/2015/


*https://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-...-2013-a-3.html


I love this color!

Saludos,
Eduardo

Petevb

I would be extremely pleasantly surprised if the 960 came with a carbon chassis, that V8 (can it really be 200 lbs lighter than the new gt3 motor??). Oh, and a manual option. Do I think it will? Sadly no, both for cost reasons and because it's so clearly fighting yesterday's war. It would be a very, very tough sell I suspect.

But as I've said before, I think yesterday's war still needs fighting. The 918 proves they can fight today's war, and as the world's reining sports car superpower, I think they are perhaps the only guys capable of fighting a war on two fronts. Or maybe that's wishful thinking, but it's my $.02.

CarMaven

@Eduardo

To compete the with 458 directly, the 960 would have the 918 engine, or something similar to it. I think Porsche knows this.

Many believe, George Kascher, writes crazy, speculative articles to begin with. And I believe, he wrote that article early in the process, before Porsche had made additional statements (though few) regarding the drive train of the potential 960--leaning towards something NA, or the 918 V8. Though, it has a Jan, 2013 date, I think that articles actually a reprint, that may have been written in 2010 or 2011. So take it with a grain of salt. I've seen that happen before (web media, passing off an older article, to make it appear current, when said subject is in the news again, and the writer or organization has no new material).

Personally, I think it will be the 918's V8, as originally published, and later reiterated by Porsche. I think what some got confused with earlier, was Porsche not building the 960 until all 918's were accounted for (as opposed to an RS or Clubsports version of the 918 sans electric motors, which was not happening). Obviously, things are always fluid in these situations for various reasons until we hear official announcements (on which engine, carbon tub, etc.) from the manufacturer.

I agree with you. The trickle down makes perfect financial sense for a 960. Porsche's already stated, that the 3 wheel steering was actually a 918 technology that trickled down in early development to the GT3 and Turbo, as the second generation motors and batteries on the new Panamera Hybrid (though Porsche has intimated to owners, the 918 will be receiving even more upgraded batteries by spring 2014). Porsche, has also stated the Infotainment system, and 918 style steering wheel should trickle down to later Porsche's as well. So the trickle down has already started.

Yeah, I would think Porsche, wants to sell out by next year as well, as they speculated after the Ring time announcement that they could close sales shortly after. We'll see?

If it's built (and especially if you buy one), I think it will be a fantastic car, with a superb chassis, carbon tub, materials and drive train, if built from the 918 Spyder. Yeah, that would be one hell of a vehicle, as the 918!!

Good Luck!

Drifting

Anybody want to speculate on the likelihood of the final 960 engine specs to be a NA engine vs a turbo?

Although the Ferrari California replacement will be a turbo, I think Ferrari will do everything they can to put NA engines in the replacements for the 458 and F12.

If Porsche intends the 960 to be a FeFi, (Ferrari Fighter) I hope a naturally aspirated engine will go into the 960 or at least be an option.

tcsracing1

the 960 is a great concept. Where will it fit in the line up? The 911 is supposed to be the king of the brand/ fleet (save for the limited 918)…. So will the 960 become the new #1 automobile in the line up? Big shoes to fill if so. Competition is fierce and what does this say for the future of the 911 being king?
I guess they could always market the 911 as the favorite/grand tourer of the bunch with the 960 being their supercar offering….

For motorsport, the 911 program is very well established. A whole new chassis/platform would really be something to pull off on numerous accounts. Would Porsche even dare consider trumphing the RSR with a 960? Would this mean no more RSR?

Id say the street engine would be 8 cylinder and turbocharged as Porsche love the benefits of turbocharging with more and more models being offered turbo charged.

I cant see it being offered in a manual, but it sure would shake up the market.

Question is, would I buy it? and if so, when would i use it and what for?

Zeus

The 597hp 4.5 V8 in the 458 Speciale is a pretty impressive engine, and yet I still think the 608hp 4.6 V8 in the 918 trumps it.

Let's say for comparitive sake, the 960 will produce 650-700hp:

Given a choice between a hopped-up version of the 918's NA V8 in the 960, or a turbo'd flat-8 or turbo'd anything, I would choose the NA 4.6 V8. Heck, toss in a couple extra hundred cc's because I could care less about 'consumption' in a car like this.

What say you all? What do you really want, no, need to see in the engine bay of the 960?

It also needs a carbon tub too. If it's up againsed the 458 replacement, it is also competing with the 12C and its replacement as well.

Another great thread, Eduardo!

phoenixx92921

What It Is: A mid-engined supercar positioned between the 911 Turbo megacar and the 918 hybrid hypercar. The 960 conceptually and stylistically resembles a slightly bigger and far more powerful Cayman, but with an extra zero added to the price.

Why It Matters: Porsche is weak in the world of supercars. The 911 Turbo and GT3, while extremely capable, are limited by their theoretically inferior rear-engine design (hey, don't shoot the messenger). And the 918, which fixes that problem, may put off purists—at least, those not scared off by an expected price tag close to $850,000—with its Mr. Fusion hybrid powertrain.

Platform: The aluminum-and-composite-intensive 960 will be based on Porsche's new, modular sport architecture (Modularer Sportbaukasten), which can be tailored for mid- or rear-engine applications.

Powertrain: The hamster running in the wheel will most likely be a horizontally opposed eight-cylinder engine, although an aggressively boosted flat-six is not out of the question. Power will be well north of 600 horses, and all-wheel drive should be standard.

Competition: Mid-engined supercars such as the Audi R8, Ferrari 458 Italia, Lamborghini Gallardo, and McLaren 12C.

What Might Go Wrong: A Porsche is tagged, perhaps unfairly, as a lawyer's car—very sporty but also somewhat sensible everyday wheels. Can the brand still breathe the thin air where exotics live? This car could be an expensive way to learn that it can't, and it also may diminish the 918's appeal.

Estimated Arrival and Price: Should show by 2017, at a price well above $200,000.

read more below.
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Top Ten classified website

zirrah

Wish they'd skip awd. It's mid engined, won't that be enough grip

dasams

The need for an impressive 0-60 time necessitates awd.

zirrah

Ah good point. Hadn't considered that.

fskof

This is what I read: The 960 will be based off the Gallardo replacment/Audi R8 replacment platform. It will have a V8 and will be placed between the 911 and the 918. Porsche needs a Mid-engine V8 to compete against the Ferrari 458 and Mclaren.