What happened to PCA GTC3 (996 cup) class?
07-29-2015, 10:27 PM
#46
Nordschleife Master
As I read the PCA proposal, 996 Cup gearing is not up for discussion since it was not "free" until 2005 and I believe the only cars allowed to run free gearing in 05 were the Supercup cars which were not 996 Cups. (They were the first 997 Cups out). It is my understanding that the factory often introduces a new generation Cup car into the Supercup series first. This allows the factory to develop the car in a controlled situation for one season before releasing to the rest of the race world. It is also why, to Bob's point,
that the 2005 996 Cups were actually built in 2004. Does anyone know for a fact if I am right or wrong on this? Thanks.
that the 2005 996 Cups were actually built in 2004. Does anyone know for a fact if I am right or wrong on this? Thanks.
For example, the 996 Cup paperwork I have says they homologated and made 7 ratios for 3rd, as short as a 1.789 and as tall as a 1.409. Everyone buys the one in the middle, the 1.56. That's the as delivered gear.
I call the gearing in these cars least common denominator gearing. It was designed to allow them to race anywhere in the world, including Daytona and LeMans. So it is way taller than it needs to be. There is the potential for a huge improvement in performance by regearing.
If this loophole exists why aren't more using it? I only know of 2 as delivered stacks for 996, early and late. And those are the ratios I sell to gtc3 competitors. So I'd be interests to get more clarification.
07-29-2015, 10:37 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The discussion of the gearing thing is confusing for me. I sell a lot of gears to shops for gtc3. They always buy the same gears, the as delivered ratios.
For example, the 996 Cup paperwork I have says they homologated and made 7 ratios for 3rd, as short as a 1.789 and as tall as a 1.409. Everyone buys the one in the middle, the 1.56. That's the as delivered gear.
I call the gearing in these cars least common denominator gearing. It was designed to allow them to race anywhere in the world, including Daytona and LeMans. So it is way taller than it needs to be. There is the potential for a huge improvement in performance by regearing.
If this loophole exists why aren't more using it? I only know of 2 as delivered stacks for 996, early and late. And those are the ratios I sell to gtc3 competitors. So I'd be interests to get more clarification.
For example, the 996 Cup paperwork I have says they homologated and made 7 ratios for 3rd, as short as a 1.789 and as tall as a 1.409. Everyone buys the one in the middle, the 1.56. That's the as delivered gear.
I call the gearing in these cars least common denominator gearing. It was designed to allow them to race anywhere in the world, including Daytona and LeMans. So it is way taller than it needs to be. There is the potential for a huge improvement in performance by regearing.
If this loophole exists why aren't more using it? I only know of 2 as delivered stacks for 996, early and late. And those are the ratios I sell to gtc3 competitors. So I'd be interests to get more clarification.
07-30-2015, 12:20 AM
#48
Rennlist Member
I did my first GTC3 race at Sebring this year after 20 plus years of PCA racing starting with a 968CS, then an 1969 911 GT5, then my beloved 993 and now a 996 Cup. First I totally agree with Steve 113 this is club racing even in the Cup Car race so enjoy, and over the years I have seen fast drivers and fast cars in every class. I like the idea of running a legal car in any of the classes I have run in, maybe its a pride thing but if you do well in a race and get called to the scales or other tech inspection it is a great feeling to know that the club scruts will confirm that you did well and validate your results.
Since I ran my car last year I have had a number of inquiries from other racers about the needs to get into a 996 Cup from their current cars. I think the class will grow as more and more racers see the entry point is doable. In my case I figured if Tom Kerr could race a Cup anyone could
Just kidding buddy but your participation is one of the reasons I considered getting a Cup.
Rich
Since I ran my car last year I have had a number of inquiries from other racers about the needs to get into a 996 Cup from their current cars. I think the class will grow as more and more racers see the entry point is doable. In my case I figured if Tom Kerr could race a Cup anyone could
Just kidding buddy but your participation is one of the reasons I considered getting a Cup.Rich
Agree with your thoughts my friend and glad you joined the club!!
07-30-2015, 12:51 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
Yes because your on the outside looking in. If your racing in PCA you become intimately familiar with the rules for your class. The problem is when years later other authorities rethink the earlier rulings. Like Stock passenger seats in lettered classes and remote reservoir shocks, gear ratio's in GTC.
enjoy the popcorn
enjoy the popcorn
07-30-2015, 09:00 AM
#50
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yes because your on the outside looking in. If your racing in PCA you become intimately familiar with the rules for your class. The problem is when years later other authorities rethink the earlier rulings. Like Stock passenger seats in lettered classes and remote reservoir shocks, gear ratio's in GTC.
enjoy the popcorn
enjoy the popcorn
07-30-2015, 11:14 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
I started racing a 6 cup early this year and its a lot of fun. There is nothing like it actually. I have been on the track,side-by-side with Tom a few times already! But If you want to maintain your to factory spec, it ain't cheap!
07-30-2015, 11:16 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
The other thing is if anybody is cheating, I can't tell. I have been on long straights with other 03, 04, and 05 cups and I can't visually detect a performance difference. That speaks a lot for parity of cars and the caliber of fellow races. I think it is a good group.
07-30-2015, 10:39 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Hope to see ya soon!
07-31-2015, 02:16 PM
#55
I am confident this whole rule change started when one of our team members installed ceramic rotors, which are stock from the factory on supercup cars. This was viewed as a competitive advantage and I believe viewed as a more expensive option, thus driving up the cost of being competitive. From what I have seen, ceramics are cost neutral when you compare the frequency of pad and rotor changes between steel and ceramic rotors. Any competitive advantage that is there is really overshadowed by driver skill. I support the use of ceramic rotors.
The whole gear change is really a non issue. As I read the Supercup rules, gears are not free in supercup unless the race is over one hour. In fact supercup gear sets are the same as carerra cup specs. I hope PCA drops this proposed rule change as noted below:
GTC 3‐6
11) Delete Supercup from these classes, effective July 1, 2016. The rationale for this proposed change is that Supercup rules allow any gears, and require ceramic rotors, although otherwise the Supercup rules are functionally identical to the Carrera Cup rules for Club Racing purposes. The Carrera Cup rules specify a single gear set for each model. The result of these differences is that not only are ceramic rotors a performance advantage, but, even if ceramic rotors are not used, the ability to alter gearing to suit different tracks destroys parity within the classes. It is noted that the gears themselves in the Cup classes wear out within a few seasons and have to be replaced, and replacement with Carrera Cup gear ratios is to that extent less burdensome.
The whole gear change is really a non issue. As I read the Supercup rules, gears are not free in supercup unless the race is over one hour. In fact supercup gear sets are the same as carerra cup specs. I hope PCA drops this proposed rule change as noted below:
GTC 3‐6
11) Delete Supercup from these classes, effective July 1, 2016. The rationale for this proposed change is that Supercup rules allow any gears, and require ceramic rotors, although otherwise the Supercup rules are functionally identical to the Carrera Cup rules for Club Racing purposes. The Carrera Cup rules specify a single gear set for each model. The result of these differences is that not only are ceramic rotors a performance advantage, but, even if ceramic rotors are not used, the ability to alter gearing to suit different tracks destroys parity within the classes. It is noted that the gears themselves in the Cup classes wear out within a few seasons and have to be replaced, and replacement with Carrera Cup gear ratios is to that extent less burdensome.
07-31-2015, 06:09 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
I am new to the cup car scene but I am sure it's the same as the other classes I raced in the past..... If your faster than me you must be cheating ....
07-31-2015, 10:49 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
I am confident this whole rule change started when one of our team members installed ceramic rotors, which are stock from the factory on supercup cars. This was viewed as a competitive advantage and I believe viewed as a more expensive option, thus driving up the cost of being competitive. From what I have seen, ceramics are cost neutral when you compare the frequency of pad and rotor changes between steel and ceramic rotors. Any competitive advantage that is there is really overshadowed by driver skill. I support the use of ceramic rotors.
The whole gear change is really a non issue. As I read the Supercup rules, gears are not free in supercup unless the race is over one hour. In fact supercup gear sets are the same as carerra cup specs. I hope PCA drops this proposed rule change as noted below:
GTC 3‐6
11) Delete Supercup from these classes, effective July 1, 2016. The rationale for this proposed change is that Supercup rules allow any gears, and require ceramic rotors, although otherwise the Supercup rules are functionally identical to the Carrera Cup rules for Club Racing purposes. The Carrera Cup rules specify a single gear set for each model. The result of these differences is that not only are ceramic rotors a performance advantage, but, even if ceramic rotors are not used, the ability to alter gearing to suit different tracks destroys parity within the classes. It is noted that the gears themselves in the Cup classes wear out within a few seasons and have to be replaced, and replacement with Carrera Cup gear ratios is to that extent less burdensome.
The whole gear change is really a non issue. As I read the Supercup rules, gears are not free in supercup unless the race is over one hour. In fact supercup gear sets are the same as carerra cup specs. I hope PCA drops this proposed rule change as noted below:
GTC 3‐6
11) Delete Supercup from these classes, effective July 1, 2016. The rationale for this proposed change is that Supercup rules allow any gears, and require ceramic rotors, although otherwise the Supercup rules are functionally identical to the Carrera Cup rules for Club Racing purposes. The Carrera Cup rules specify a single gear set for each model. The result of these differences is that not only are ceramic rotors a performance advantage, but, even if ceramic rotors are not used, the ability to alter gearing to suit different tracks destroys parity within the classes. It is noted that the gears themselves in the Cup classes wear out within a few seasons and have to be replaced, and replacement with Carrera Cup gear ratios is to that extent less burdensome.
08-01-2015, 03:27 AM
#59
Only 996 cups have the gearing loophole.
I ran the ceramic brakes in 08. To make them work well you must change the master cylinders to the euro spec. All us 997 cups were steel brake cars with different master cylinder sizes.
I ran the ceramic brakes in 08. To make them work well you must change the master cylinders to the euro spec. All us 997 cups were steel brake cars with different master cylinder sizes.