N rated vs non-N rated tires
11-20-2006, 03:47 PM
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N rated vs non-N rated tires
Group -- what are your thoughts on replacing the OEM N rated tires with non N rated tires such as the Toyo Proxes ST? The downside of the OEM N spec tires is the treadware vs the higher treadware rated Toyos.
11-20-2006, 04:02 PM
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If you go to tirerack.com you will see many anecdotes from people who are more concerned about tire wear than performance or speed/load-handling capability and bought non-H-rated tires for their Porsches.
Personally I didn't buy a $65k high-performance vehicle just so I could save some chump change on tires, or gas, or whatever consummables allow me to get the most out of it. That is just me. Everyone has their own idea of what they want to do, though. To each his own!
Personally I didn't buy a $65k high-performance vehicle just so I could save some chump change on tires, or gas, or whatever consummables allow me to get the most out of it. That is just me. Everyone has their own idea of what they want to do, though. To each his own!
11-20-2006, 04:10 PM
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Hey there,
My limited experience.... I have Michelin Pilot Sport N2's. From what a few Porsche mechanics have told me, the differnce between the N2 version and the regular Pilot Sport is in the tread pattern. Their opinion was that the tread pattern on the N2 worked better in the wet with my car. Tread wear was exactly the same.
My limited experience.... I have Michelin Pilot Sport N2's. From what a few Porsche mechanics have told me, the differnce between the N2 version and the regular Pilot Sport is in the tread pattern. Their opinion was that the tread pattern on the N2 worked better in the wet with my car. Tread wear was exactly the same.
11-20-2006, 11:38 PM
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I have non-N load rated Diamaris on my Cayenne. I got a good deal on the same size (275/40R20) and speed rating as was spec'd for the Pepper, but mine were made for the X5, so are not load rated. I currently have ~10K on them (no towing, mix of mostly around town and about 2-3K of freeway). I ought to get at least another 10-15K...maybe more...
11-21-2006, 03:51 PM
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I believe the original question referred to the Toyo Proxes S/T, which I am considering myself, and which are both appropriately load-rated and speed rated past where any American driver is likely to push his/her Cayenne. For many of us, the problem is NOT saving a few bucks, but finding specific use tires (such as 19" tires that won't get stuck in anything more than a mud puddle, for me) for which there are no good N-rated alternatives.
11-22-2006, 11:27 AM
#7
long rambling tire post
i would agree that you cannot go wrong if you buy a "N" rated tire on the porsche. especially on the cayenne, load ratings and sidewall ratings are something that really needs attention given if you are going to go with a non "N" rated tire. this kinda gets to the issue of how much time and research are you willing to do to buy tires.
in the 20", tire rack has 7 tires that they say will fit. 3 of these are OEM tires (N0 or N1). one can be tossed because it doesn't fit the load rating (the non "N" rated diamaris. in the non "N" group you have Michelin Latitude Tour HP, Yokohama ADVAN S.T., and the non "N" version of the Continental 4x4 SportContact.
cost deltamax between the 6 tires that are actually applicable is 56 bucks (about 18%). of the tires with reviews on them the connies came out 4 of 4, the pirelli's came out 16 of 21 and the diamaris (i wish i could learn to spell that) came out 2 of 4 (the general grabber UHP came out 1st in this class of tire, but is not available in the required size). in this case, i think the obvious choice is the michelin, doesn't cost much more than the cheapest, is highly rated on tire rack and also has good press on this site.
looking at tire rack (www.tirerack.com) for 18" tires for the cayenne, there are 39 tires that fit the 18", deltamax on price is 148 bucks, or 151%. of these, fully 15 don't meet the primary specs, so can be tossed.
as far as the N rated tires go, they are some of the worst in their respective classes.
Pirelli PZero Rosso listed 17th out 22 cost 198
Continental 4x4 SportContact listed 4th of 4 cost 202
Bridgestone Turanza ER30 doesn't have a rating but cost 244
Continental 4x4 Contact 10th out of 11 (with a 4/10 on "buy again" cost 159
Pirelli Scorpion Zero 7 out of 11 cost 143
for my favs (non N rated, the michelin falls here because tire rack doesn't carry the N version)
General Grabber UHP 1 of 4 cost 102 (but they scream like a gurl around corners)
Michelin 4x4 Diamaris 2 of 4 cost 228
i have also run the
Kumho ECSTA STX rated 4 of 11 cost 104 (might have made 30k, but you would have needed earplugs for the last 10k)
the best rated, the general UHP is available in the 18" size, and it is under half the cost of the Michelin 4x4 Diamaris (which are N0 in this size). i currently have the UHPs on the cayenne, they are great tires, but scream like gurls around the corners if pressed. the Michelin is second rated, hard on the general's number one score in this tire. if they come out with an N1 in the diamaris in the 18", i will probably buy it.
the cayenne is a tough fitment, and a wrong choice (load rating 104 or less, etc) could not only result in bad tire performance, but could also result in a high speed blowout. with the cayenne you might avoid being rolled in a ball (i came up on a ford explorer that had just rolled 6-8 times after a blowout, i had nightmares for a long time after that), but it would certainly be an interesting ride. the cayenne pushes the envelope in performance with a car this heavy, and the tires are how the car talks to the road. if you are willing to do alot of research, do it diligently and make an informed decision. if you have better things to do with your saturday, buy an "N" rated tire (my advice is the diamaris) and spend the rest of your day basking in the knowledge that you have a tire that is exactly right for your car.
the bad thing about the "N" rated tires is that except for the michelin tires, they are almost uniformly the worst rated and reviewed tires tire rack carries.
DT
in the 20", tire rack has 7 tires that they say will fit. 3 of these are OEM tires (N0 or N1). one can be tossed because it doesn't fit the load rating (the non "N" rated diamaris. in the non "N" group you have Michelin Latitude Tour HP, Yokohama ADVAN S.T., and the non "N" version of the Continental 4x4 SportContact.
cost deltamax between the 6 tires that are actually applicable is 56 bucks (about 18%). of the tires with reviews on them the connies came out 4 of 4, the pirelli's came out 16 of 21 and the diamaris (i wish i could learn to spell that) came out 2 of 4 (the general grabber UHP came out 1st in this class of tire, but is not available in the required size). in this case, i think the obvious choice is the michelin, doesn't cost much more than the cheapest, is highly rated on tire rack and also has good press on this site.
looking at tire rack (www.tirerack.com) for 18" tires for the cayenne, there are 39 tires that fit the 18", deltamax on price is 148 bucks, or 151%. of these, fully 15 don't meet the primary specs, so can be tossed.
as far as the N rated tires go, they are some of the worst in their respective classes.
Pirelli PZero Rosso listed 17th out 22 cost 198
Continental 4x4 SportContact listed 4th of 4 cost 202
Bridgestone Turanza ER30 doesn't have a rating but cost 244
Continental 4x4 Contact 10th out of 11 (with a 4/10 on "buy again" cost 159
Pirelli Scorpion Zero 7 out of 11 cost 143
for my favs (non N rated, the michelin falls here because tire rack doesn't carry the N version)
General Grabber UHP 1 of 4 cost 102 (but they scream like a gurl around corners)
Michelin 4x4 Diamaris 2 of 4 cost 228
i have also run the
Kumho ECSTA STX rated 4 of 11 cost 104 (might have made 30k, but you would have needed earplugs for the last 10k)
the best rated, the general UHP is available in the 18" size, and it is under half the cost of the Michelin 4x4 Diamaris (which are N0 in this size). i currently have the UHPs on the cayenne, they are great tires, but scream like gurls around the corners if pressed. the Michelin is second rated, hard on the general's number one score in this tire. if they come out with an N1 in the diamaris in the 18", i will probably buy it.
the cayenne is a tough fitment, and a wrong choice (load rating 104 or less, etc) could not only result in bad tire performance, but could also result in a high speed blowout. with the cayenne you might avoid being rolled in a ball (i came up on a ford explorer that had just rolled 6-8 times after a blowout, i had nightmares for a long time after that), but it would certainly be an interesting ride. the cayenne pushes the envelope in performance with a car this heavy, and the tires are how the car talks to the road. if you are willing to do alot of research, do it diligently and make an informed decision. if you have better things to do with your saturday, buy an "N" rated tire (my advice is the diamaris) and spend the rest of your day basking in the knowledge that you have a tire that is exactly right for your car.
the bad thing about the "N" rated tires is that except for the michelin tires, they are almost uniformly the worst rated and reviewed tires tire rack carries.
DT
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11-24-2006, 10:12 AM
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Speaking of the Toyo Proxes S/T, this thread prompted me to check their website again. The 275/45R19 size used to be listed in their specs as "not M+S rated." I had heard that this was because they didn't meet a minimum for tread depth, but don't know if that's really the issue. Now their charts contain no such disclaimer for that size. Any of you "non-N-rated" tire experts know anything about this? My only N-rated choice in 19" appears to be the Pirelli Scorpion Ice & Snow, which has a narrower tread at 255/50/19 and about which I have heard some uncomplimentary reviews. I see very little snow, and am more interested in light off-road duty.
Thanks for any knowledge you guys can share.
Thanks for any knowledge you guys can share.
11-24-2006, 10:29 AM
#9
porchce n rates their tires for a reson, its vey noticible if you drive a caynne on non n rated tires and then drive one with n rated tires the truck feels like a panel van with the non rated tires on it
11-24-2006, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 99firehawk
porchce n rates their tires for a reson, its vey noticible if you drive a caynne on non n rated tires and then drive one with n rated tires the truck feels like a panel van with the non rated tires on it
11-24-2006, 11:19 AM
#12
i believe
that there were a couple of toyo proxies owners on the rennteam website that talked about their tires. general report was favorable as i recall. there is nothing magical about N rated tires, they are +/-10% max different from the regular non N rated version of the same tire. the main thing with the cayenne is that it is a very heavy vehicle, that can be driven right to the edge. your tires (be they N or non-N) should reflect this.
the N rated tires appear to be more of an affectation of the tire companies. notice, for instance, who makes them. european tire companies only, leaving goodyear, bridgestone and the other majors out of the mix. you think goodyear or bridgestone CAN'T make a tire to run on the cayenne? or that they just don't feel that bothering with the limited porsche market is worth it. michelin is the only big tire company to make N rated tires, and the performance of their tires shows. however, you aren't going to make a whole banbury run just for some N rated tires and throw the rest away.
DT
PS, your findings in the 19" realm are exactly why i like the 18" tires better, more choices. perhaps you should look at getting a set of 18" wheels for winter.
the N rated tires appear to be more of an affectation of the tire companies. notice, for instance, who makes them. european tire companies only, leaving goodyear, bridgestone and the other majors out of the mix. you think goodyear or bridgestone CAN'T make a tire to run on the cayenne? or that they just don't feel that bothering with the limited porsche market is worth it. michelin is the only big tire company to make N rated tires, and the performance of their tires shows. however, you aren't going to make a whole banbury run just for some N rated tires and throw the rest away.
DT
PS, your findings in the 19" realm are exactly why i like the 18" tires better, more choices. perhaps you should look at getting a set of 18" wheels for winter.
11-24-2006, 11:30 AM
#13
on the M/S question
from "howstuffworks.com"
All-Season Tires with Mud and Snow Designation
If a tire has MS, M+S, M/S or M&S on it, then it meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) guidelines for a mud and snow tire. For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):
1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:
a. Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
b. A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
c. Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.
2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.
The rough translation of this specification is that the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.
Severe winter traction icon
The idea is to give the tread pattern enough void space so that it can bite through the snow and get traction. However, as you can see from the specification, there is no testing involved.
To address this shortcoming, the Rubber Manufacturers Association and the tire industry have agreed on a standard that does involve testing. The designation is called Severe Snow Use and has a specific icon (see image at right), which goes next to the M/S designation.
In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions":
Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.
These tires, in addition to meeting the geometrical requirements for an M/S designation, are tested on snow using a standardized test procedure.They have to do better than the standard reference tire in order to meet the requirements for Severe Snow Use.
All-Season Tires with Mud and Snow Designation
If a tire has MS, M+S, M/S or M&S on it, then it meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) guidelines for a mud and snow tire. For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):
1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:
a. Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
b. A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
c. Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.
2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.
The rough translation of this specification is that the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.
Severe winter traction icon
The idea is to give the tread pattern enough void space so that it can bite through the snow and get traction. However, as you can see from the specification, there is no testing involved.
To address this shortcoming, the Rubber Manufacturers Association and the tire industry have agreed on a standard that does involve testing. The designation is called Severe Snow Use and has a specific icon (see image at right), which goes next to the M/S designation.
In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions":
Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.
These tires, in addition to meeting the geometrical requirements for an M/S designation, are tested on snow using a standardized test procedure.They have to do better than the standard reference tire in order to meet the requirements for Severe Snow Use.
11-24-2006, 11:35 AM
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Thanks, droptop. Rennteam is where I first heard about the Proxes, - also where I heard some not-so-great reviews about the Pirelli Scorpion Ice & Snow.
I wish I was smart enough to sort through all these N-rated claims and counterclaims. For example, the Scorpion Ice & Snows in 255/50/19 are N-rated, while the 275/45/19 are not. Call me a cynic, but I have to suspect that some of this may have less to do with differences in tire construction than in how much time the Porsche and tire vendor engineers have to get together and quibble about such things.
I wish I COULD drop to 18", but the PowerKit brakes require minimum 19".
I wish I was smart enough to sort through all these N-rated claims and counterclaims. For example, the Scorpion Ice & Snows in 255/50/19 are N-rated, while the 275/45/19 are not. Call me a cynic, but I have to suspect that some of this may have less to do with differences in tire construction than in how much time the Porsche and tire vendor engineers have to get together and quibble about such things.
I wish I COULD drop to 18", but the PowerKit brakes require minimum 19".
11-24-2006, 12:50 PM
#15
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I got Michelin Lattitudes in a 19" size 10mm wider than stock because that was the only size available- didn't think it would screw up the speedometer that much. They have a much better wear rating and I was getting sick of putting new tires on the thing every year! It's not like I'm autocrossing it...been happy with them so far- they are listed as M+S but I have 18" winter rims with Dunlop snows anyway.