GVA-SFO

Yes, this is exact : Mission E (formely PaJun ?).
I think we all read that Porsche want to make a Panamera "junior" (PaJun), with a full electric powertrain.
Well, this is may be the "first" concept. Quite interesting !
The idea (in the style) seems to be more "918ising", ..at least for the front! while, it is true that for the back, it remain very "911" lines.

In my opinion the side view has some kind of lines, that could let us remember of a car that had a fabulous designer, ..but, ..did not last that long (I'm thinking about Henrik Fisker) !

Now, to be more accurate:
This car was just presented to some "happy few" before the Frankfort show. Some data released are interesting : Electric motors (and batteries) are not 400 V but 800 V, to limit weight (less copper) and much faster reload time (i.e.: to 10 minutes for up to 80% of full load). Power is 600 hp (it is said that the motors comes directly from the Le Mans 919's), and autonomy is around 500 kms (310 miles). 0 to 60 miles in 3.5 sec. I even read that "the Ring time" (this is just an incredible data, very hard to believe !!!) is under 8 minutes ! Is this a tested data, or a simulation ??? Some journalists reports that this is already a "real time" (!!! ???)

By the way, I'm curious, one of these days, when a car will be launched into the Ring, (for a best lap test), but with no driver. Who will pay the ticket for the over speed ?

Well, some analysts are saying that this is about "80%" of what the NEW Panamera will looks like !
..One more photo :

AndrewP

A very handsome four door that is derived from years of 911 evolution. The P90D is an impressive offering even with its commonly derivative styling, but I am willing to wait for Porsche's electric four door and guess that it will be available in less than the five years mentioned in the press release. Many reasons that I prefer to wait for the Porsche E, not least is that it will be track ready and will tolerate high temperature operation and not just be a fifteen minute sports car that is mentioned in the release. (I do not need "ludicrous" on public roads, only on the track.) No doubt the Porsche will have suspension capabilities beyond the current generation of its high end models and interiors that will befit the car. The communication and vehicle management capabilities are also likely to be practical, if not the gee wiz stuff in the Tesla today.

AndrewP

The Aventador is a beast, but does not have the smooth double clutch transmission that I would prefer. The shifts in the Aventador are intentionally harsh under full power to preserve the edginess of its brand, I suppose. Like the Huracan, it is easy to drive on the track, but would not work for me as a second car. Headroom in the spyder is very tight for anyone 6 feet tall or more.

GVA-SFO

I think there are much more than 2 solutions..

If I look at the latest news correctly : Welcome today to the latest product of the Cousin, I named the (fabulous) Lamborghini Huracán LP610-4 Spyder, or : equipped with a naturally aspirated 5.2l V10 engine that produces 610 hp (449 kW). Such a great news !

Some notes about technical solutions : The Spyder includes new technical features of the 2016 model year Huracán family, including 'cylinder on demand' in combination with 'stop start', and a new electronically controlled all-wheel drive set-up for even improved driving behavior !

GVA-SFO

I agree with you that the Aventador is quite "exotic". Anyway, both the 918 ..and the pair "Avantador + Tesla P85" are not in my car budget, so, ... !

But, more "closer", what's about an Huracán ?
Very seriously, I would also still much prefer a pair "Huracán + Mission E", ..than a single 918 !

I agree, that it is a kind of funny choice (2 pieces instead of a "compromise"), ..from a guy that drove multiple 911's for 30 years, as, in my eyes, the 911 was never something else than the best compromise sport cars (engine on the back to enable having 2 jump seats in the rear, instead of engine on center and not jump seat) !

May be it explains why I'm happier today with a Panamera as my daily and an old "modified" Boxster (S) as my fun/track car !

(I should be very stupid, but I never understood the "GT3" (and GT2's), because of the architecture, i.e.: engine on the back, and roll bars in the back of the car ! For me (not a pro race driver), it just make it VERY difficult to drive when appproaching the limit, this compared to a car that have the engine at the right place ! I perceive these as being only a marketing product, to help to defend the market position of the 911 ! Or, "Have you ever seen a Formula one ..with the engine on the back ?"

GVA-SFO

At this point, why not a kind of “summary” of recent facts from the VW family “evolution” :

. Cayenne S loose V8 NA to get a V6T
. Panamera S loose V8 NA to get a V6T
. Top of the line Panamera Turbo S offer 550 hp
. Top of the line Audi S8 Plus offer 605 hp
. Bentley offer a SUV Bentaya, W12, 6 liters, 600hp
. All Porsche 911 loose flat 6 NA to get smaller flat 6 Turbo
. Panamera new concept, all electric, 600 hp
. New Lamborghini Huracán announced : V10 NA 5.2 liter 610 hp

@ TTCarrera : "Stuttgart, I think we have a problem, do you copy ? ..."

AndrewP

I enjoy driving my PGTS as much as my 991 TTS. No doubt that the Mission E four door will be dynamically superior to the current and next NA PGTS, so I very much look forward to its introduction. Huracan is a bit faster than the 991 TTS, but for me the TTS is the way to go for a variety of reasons, not least that my dog can ride in the back. Also the Huracan stock seats do not match up the the 18 way ventilated seats of the TTS. The Huracan sport seats are much better, but still not up to the 18 way seats of the TTS IMO.

I get you on the GT3 thing. Very dramatic sound and aggressive body work. Not a practical touring car. Not necessarily faster than a 991 TTS on track even with the stock P Zeros vs the MPSC tires on the GT3. To me the 991 TTS is a very respectable "track weapon" and its lack of drama is what the automotive journalists can't quite understand and therefore do not praise its truly broad capabilities. Wonder what they will say when the next body style 991 Turbo S hybrid lays down fast track times without the drama of a 488, Huracan or NA GT3/RS. Most GT3 owners that I have met do not track their cars, which is a shame.

GVA-SFO

Another great Panamera drive yesterday, from San Francisco, landing in a free “Porsche Corral” parking where my car was the only “4 doors” at the moment of parking, ..this, in Laguna Seca, for Rennsport Reunion V



Arriving on the spot, I was able to saw on display a 2017 911S Cab “for sale”

The car :



And the price, with the options list :



Note that the MPG are “TBD”. I guess, this is because, ..it simply depend on which software they will use !


Well, I feel that this could be interesting for those that want to “walk back”, from Panamera to 911 !
..But, this is still not currently my case.
(Still so happy to have replaced my last 911 against a Panamera and a Boxster.)

GVA-SFO

About Rennsport & Panamera, one seems to work well for filming and bring also happiness here too :



In the back seat of the Panamera, ..we can recognize Mr. Jeff Zwart, not driving his 906 here this year, but working on films for the factory :



What is the topic ?
Simple, a 919, carrying the n°19 ..and that is not a “plaster of Paris” display model :





Nick Tandy ready to go for some Laguna Seca demo Laps :



Even if I’m not a fan of the V4 engine, I must recognize that it is a incredible machine. Hyper technical !
I learnt that this “n°19” is a “sistership” of the one that won le Mans, ..but it is not the Le Mans machine. One of the reason : With Rennsport being an event were a lots of people goes very close to the cars, I understood that the real machine would be simply impossible to display on such conditions : Dangerous like hell, for everyone that would be near by. ..because of the very high voltage in so many places.
So, this n°19 is a “exact same” as the Le Mans winner, except : no electricity (not an hybrid car).
This will explain, that on pit lane take off, ..you can hear the V4 ..all the way !
By the way, I also learnt that amongst braking and others ways, the 919 has an interesting way to "reload" the batteries : beside the main turbos, that create intake boost, the V4 has "secondary" turbos, pumping the pressure that left over in the exhaust, and drive generators that ..permanently reloads the battery.
Yes, it is a monster piece of technology, just incredible.

If you want to hear how the V4 sound on a “light” take off out of the pit, here it is :

GVA-SFO

Well, after many trips from San Francisco to San Diego, and some to the North, i.e.: the Northern California Coast, up to Portland, and even Seattle to Vancouver, we felt that we should now try going East !
The Panamera being such a beautiful “tool” for Grand Tours, we just did ..San Francisco to Santa Fe, and back.
Or, some 2’600 miles, as we took some small roads, and for sure, took some part of the historic US66 !
Nothing to mention, except that this car is just PERFECT. A real fabulous GT, with all the comfort that we can expect for riding a car for such mileage in few days.
On very long ride, I RE-confirm : Fantastic handling, and if you need to call for some power, the power is good and present to insure clean and safe passes.

On the road again, ..the 66 this time ! :




It is great to see all these containers ..on a train, ..instead of on big rigs, ..and having to pass them !






Service station on road 66 :



By the way, from one of these, it is interesting to observe what is the original angle of Pegase : (This particular one seems to have been used as a shooting training target !!)




On the streets of Santa Fe :




While being on this road, I was not able to resist to take a shot of “that” :



Burning huge piles of coal, to generate electricity make me feel sick.
And, this make me think again about the VW scandal:
Somehow, yes, do not get me wrong, VW made it real bad, but, shall we not think that if a major car manufacturer could decide to go for such bad solution, I think our legislators (Worldwide), ..yes the ones that we did elect !!!, are just doing big mistake too, i.e.: by trying to get the voices of the green people (to help them being re-elected), imo, they have posted VERY stupid limits for the cars, that are too costly and too difficult to meet at the current time.
What is going to be the most predictable results : Yes, VW will get huge financial problems, and who will pay the hardest and toughest : The workers that will be fired at the VW plants and at the other plants that are subcontractors of VW. Thinking about all those people, (that have done nothing wrong at all) will loose jobs in many countries, in this very very stupid case makes me feeling real bad.

To come back about the above photo, all to say that the pollution generated by differences of the faulty VW compared to the pollution of such power plant, makes the whole VW story looking nothing else than a joke ..bigger than these piles of coal.

Gus_Smedstad

Which is kind of weird considering that this sentiment is in direct opposition to where you went with the rest of the paragraph.

Air pollution rules have done a lot to improve air quality in the Americas and Europe over the last 40 years. Saying it's "stupid" ignores decades of results.

It's not "too difficult." It's actually not hard at all for non-Diesels. Other manufacturers have managed it even for diesels, using methods that VW chose to ignore as a cost-cutting measure.

That, unfortunately, is how companies work. Workers don't get to make the really bad decisions by upper management that damage the company and ultimately cost the workers their jobs.

It's not a "very stupid case." It's gross mismanagement by VW that's causing these workers to lose jobs. Shifting blame away from VW on to regulations protecting public health is inappropriate.

Yes, burning coal is a source of air pollution. That doesn't mean all other sources are unimportant. Motor vehicles are very definitely a major source of air pollution. How much depends on which pollutant you're looking at, but the VW scandal is specifically Nitrogen Oxide, where on-road vehicles are 30% of the source and electricity generation is 28%.

That's for all vehicles. The VW cars in question were emitting a hugely disproportionate amount of NOx compared to other cars. The Passat emits 0.6 - 1.5 grams / mile, versus 0.04 for a Honda Civic. Every Passat on the road is the equivalent of at least 15 Civics. So YES, IT IS A BIG DEAL.

If you're still upset about burning coal, rather than just using this as another excuse to pardon VW, there are things we can do about burning it, like turning to other sources of energy if we can. And even with coal, there are things that a huge stationary plant can do to scrub pollutants out of its smokestacks that a comparatively tiny, mobile car can't.

The utilities are against it, because such measures cost money to implement. Just as VW was against spending money to comply with air pollution standards.

AndrewP

I do not want to debate the subject, just note that VW, which employs far more people per vehicle produced than say Toyota, has hurt more than just the buyers of its fraudulent products. Mueller has said the obvious about cutbacks in capital expenditures, which very well could mean that development of electric vehicles, such as the Mission E-derived model(s) will be deferred. This is sad.

Regarding coal burning electric generation, the Tesla driver in Colorado is using electricity that is about 50% coal fired. The irony of this is noteworthy. Sure, some may have solar panels generating much of their personal electricity, but there are probably very few.

Gus_Smedstad

Colorado's the worst state in that regard. A Tesla in Colorado is roughly on par with a gasoline vehicle getting 34 MPG, if you're looking at well-to-wheels. Which still isn't bad, so the description of Colorado EVs as "coal burning" (which is something I've seen before from EV opponents) is misleading.

From a Union of Concerned Scientists study:


The upshot is that EVs are hardly nonpolluting in the big picture, but they vary from on par with gasoline in the worst states to significantly cleaner in some states.

Note that the study focuses on greenhouse gasses - I couldn't find any sources for things that are more immediate, like NOx, carbon monoxide, or particulates. They're presumably proportionate.

One thing about rooftop solar panels - they're generally sized to your annual usage without an EV. I've got them, and they produced 7600 kWh over the last 12 months, but I use around 9000 kWh a year without the car. Every additional watt I use to charge the car is something that eventually comes from the grid, even if I'm producing a net positive when I'm actually charging (which is often the case, ~5500 watts peak generation is a lot more than the 3600 the car draws).

AndrewP

I knew that we could count on your informed perspective on the subject of EV's. One of my sons, who is very green and is in the renewable resource industry, has a 2010 VW Sportback diesel and is very disappointed about the pollutants that he has generated by VW's fraud. CO will not renew registrations for such vehicles after six months.

GVA-SFO

Well, I would like to be back with some numbers as the base of my above feeling, i.e.: the source of the NOx, and ..comparing the VW scandal against the Coal Firing Power Plants in the USA.

Sources :
The EPA limit are at 0.043 gr/km

The measures on the faulty/lying VW shows :
Lowest : 0.34 gr/km
Largest : 1.5 gr/km
..or an average of 0.92 gr/km

If we subtract the limit from the average, we have a fraudulent emission of 0.877 gr/km or, 1.40 gr/mile.

Taking in account that the average car mileage per year in the USA is around 12’250 miles, a single fraudulent VW have “over polluted” an amount of 16 kg of NOx per year.

If 482’000 cars are concerned, then, using averaging (with no ponderations), the VW fraud of NOx in USA should represent a pollution supplement of about 7’600 tons of NOx per year.

Now, for the coal (***only***) US power plants, today there is about 520 plants in action, (..producing close to 40% of the total electricity).
Each plant typically “produces” about 10’000 tons of NOx per year, so, the total NOx produced by the coal firing plants in the USA is in the range of 5’000’000 tons.

Or, here in numbers, why I mentioned above, that “overproduction” of NOx from the VW fraud and scandal, is a (very bad) joke compared to burning coal to create electricity.
(i.e.: 7’600 tons compared to 5’000’000 tons, or ..about 0.15%)

Hope this help to understand my above (bad) “quick comment” about the NOx “over” pollution created by the VW fraud compared to the NOx from firing coal.

Now, do not get me wrong, I’m not doing any politics, and I have no financial interest in the car industry, ..neither in the coal industry.
I just like cars, and love V8’s, ..knowing that this is not the best for our Earth.
Yes, I hate burning coal, because, not only for NOx, I strongly think that this is the worse thing to do today, but I also know that changes take time to happen.

Where I’m unhappy, is that the car industry gets hurt big time, forcing to make progresses that are extremely expensive for us, ..the car purchasers, this while, for example, a large parts of the worse pollutants (coal power plants) are old, already fully amortized, and today these bad old plants are nothing else than cash machines. The cost of coal and the cost of operation (without any amortization) enable these plants to inject electricity into the grid at cost below 3 cents per kWh and enabling their owner to make huge profit, without any serious look from the Legislator as these are generating an horrible pollution for the current and future generations.
(We talked here only about NOx, but firing coal also creates tons of other horrible pollutants, including Mercury, etc..) ..and ignoring also the terrible waste of water.

Why I continue to feel that is stupid to go like crazy against the cars ? Just think that on the Oceans of our planet, we have thousands of large ships, transporting any kind of stuff.
May be you should keep on mind, that ONLY the 100 largest of these ships DO POLLUTE EARTH MORE THAN ..the billion of cars that we have.
So, if someone is asking you to clean up the shop, are you going to take a good large broom, ..or a fine artist brush ?
If you take the small artist brush to clean "the shop" and somebody will tell you that are are stupid, I just hope, ..that you will agree !

Now, I also fully agree that going into Diesel for small engine in small cars that could do small “start & stops”, and be used in the cities, was quite a bad solution.
What was looking to be an attractive solution (great potential MPG) was simply wrong in term of pollution, and, we can only observe that the solution pushed by Toyota (“The Prius”) was most probably the best of all choices, i.e.: the best product at the right time.

I may also add, that eliminating the Diesel cars of this planet, ..will not provide any great help either. Why ? Simply because when operate a refinery, and put a barrel of crude oil in the front to get gasoline, ..you simply cannot **DO** that without producing other "side" products, like Diesel, Kerosene, and etc..
So, if no more Diesel cars, then, we will have to dig a large hole, ..and bury the Diesel into it ! (May be our descendants will pump it back later on !)

To be positive, I would like to say that during this tour, I have also seen things like that :



..that shows that progresses happen, but it just takes time.