Cloud9...68

I have a track-prepped 1992 968, and have been using Harry's Laptimer with integrated GoPro video, and while I'm happy with the ability to see exactly how fast the car is going, and what level of G-Forces it's creating in all directions, at every point on the track, especially when comparing my laps to those of a professional racer, the thing that's missing is information as to what I'm doing to make the car behave the way it does. So, I'd like to step up to something that gives tells me the throttle position, steering wheel angle, and brake pressure at every point on the track. Being a pre-OBDII car, it isn't going to be easy to get the information about the car (fluid temperatures, rpm, horsepower and torque calculations, etc.) that is available on more modern cars, but to be honest, I'm a lot less interested in these things than I am in correlating my driver inputs to the car's speed and acceleration values. Being able to compare this information from a pro racer to me would be an invaluable teaching tool. So, I'm looking for something that creates a map of the track with all the speed and acceleration information (like Harry's does), which accepts inputs from analog sensors for throttle position (which I could read right off of the TPS), steering wheel angle, and brake pressure, and overlays these analog signals with the instantaneous car speed and acceleration information. Video would be nice, but to be honest, I haven't found it to be all that useful, and I could always run Harry's in parallel to create a synced video. It seems that what I'm look for is on the simple end of the DA spectrum, since I can't use OBDII data processing capability anyway.

ProCoach

Great! Glad you're looking to move up in ease-of-use AND utility.

I've sold and taught people to use more than a thousand data systems for Pre-OBDII and even ECU (electronic control unit) equipped cars and it's not hard to do what you want to do.

Just to explain, the OBDII is merely a port, an access point, that allows simple data loggers (recording devices) to use sensors ALREADY on the car (for the necessary operation of the car) for capturing information you're looking for. So, OBDII and CAN equipped cars can use SIMPLER logger installations because they're just piggybacked off the car's sensors. No calculations in the car, just information flowing through it that you're "sniffing" and logging. Got it?

The ONLY issue adopting good, powerful, accurate and easy to use data loggers on cars older than those that offer this sensor information through OBDII or CAN is that you will need to physically install the sensors for control inputs from the driver (and health measures from the car) to measure them.

So, with these sensors you install, you'll get the same information with sometimes better resolution and accuracy than over the OBDII.

I will say that if you had the opportunity to SEE the measures ON the video, you could make a great and instantaneous valuation of cause-and-effect from your driver inputs and their result in the car's trajectory. But I digress.

I have sold a number of (and am sending out today four more) AiM EVO4 loggers with the G-Dash display for pre-OBDII cars. Almost every one of these folks bought an AiM SmartyCam HD with these loggers because they wanted to SEE throttle, brakes, engine revs, speed and, in some cases, steering angle RIGHT ON the video, so that they could pop the card out thirty seconds after they come back in and review what they just did.

THEN, they download the data from the EVO4, which allowed them to compare squiggly lines, basically values over time or better yet, distance, and examine colored maps of the track, colored with how much (or little) throttle or brake (and steering, if so equipped) you were using WHERE, in relation to the corner, you were! It's amazing...

There are other systems that can do this also, but that are much more video and data integrated in the analysis software. These systems would show you and allow you to compare the ANGLE at the same POINT (GPS position) on the apex of a particular corner between you and a faster lap, visually and with synced data in ONE window.

Of course, none of this is cheap, like HLT (which is a tremendous bargain, but limited in it's capabilities, reliability and accuracy). I'll post additional explanations, pictures and estimates for a variety of options for equipment that would do what YOU want, but rest assured, MANY more people who do HPDE, track days and club racing are finding the biggest benefits for their improvement are coming from making an investment in this technology. You might wince when you write the check or charge the card, but this will pay off EVERY TIME you get out of the car, if you spend a little time learning to use it.

In Austin, you should speak to Collin Stith at SoulSpeed. He's done several installs of this type of equipment on older cars and is a good local resource.

Matt Romanowski

I'm on a plane ready to take off so I can't give a verbose reply, but here is a quick matrix of products on the AiM product line. I would not suggest an Evo4 setup right now as it is an older system and does not have the latest file structure.

With what you want, I would suggest and MXL2 or to wait a bit until the GS Dash is done and get that with an Evo5.

http://www.trailbrake.net/aim-products-matrix.html

These system would all allow for future expansion and adding a SCHD if and when you want.

certz

The AiM EVO4 with G-Dash is a great way to get started down the data acquisition slippery slope - it is fairly inexpensive (non of this is cheap) with lots of expandability. I went with a MXS, SCHD, throttle sensor, steering sensor, and brake pressure sensor in my 993 and have been very happy. A buddy, with a 944 SP3 car went with a used MXL, throttle, brake pressure, steering, fuel lvl, oil temp and press, and a couple I am probably missing and eliminated his gauge cluster. Like Peter said you can get everything a newer car can get from the OBD and CAN ports you just have to install the sensors on your car. Good luck and good on you for going the data route.

ProCoach

I don't believe in selling or recommending equipment that does NOT have a display option (GS-Dash has not yet been released, nor is it likely to be in the country before the middle of the year, AFAIK), hence my continued recommendation (and successful sales) of the EVO4/G-Dash combination.

This combo is the least expensive, best small logger with a compact display, and will do what you want. The EVO4 uses the same configuration and file structure as the MXL, a mainstay for the last twelve years, and of course, the same as ALL of the immensely successful Solo and Solo DL portable loggers.

The EVO4/G-Dash has SO much potential power that you will never run out or be compromised in doing what YOU stated you wanted to do. I do (and have, for several years) use this SAME combination of equipment I am recommending on my own, personal, winning race car! <grin>

The EVO4 is about 5" x 2" x 1" and the G-Dash is about 4" x 3" x 1" (with cable ferrule on back). Maybe some pictures will help.

ProCoach

Here's an explanation from a few years ago in an email I sent to a pre-OBDII system inquiry:

If you didn't want the camera right now, take $999 off the minimum bundle I recommend. For just the logger, G-Dash, accessories and the basic driver sensor package with one brake pressure sensor, it would be $2178.

There is a particular combination of components that I have assembled, specifically for non-OBDII/CAN equipped cars that can be expanded or configured in a particular way with a few optional sensor packages, depending on what you want to do.

The central logger is the AiM EVO4. It's $1199 and capable of logging GPS speed, lap timing, RPM and three-axis accelerometers on its own. You can add five more sensor inputs plus drive a dash display and the camera easily.

The dash display that I use and recommend is the AiM G-Dash, a small backlit LCD display with integrated and completely configurable shift lights, along with up to four programmable alarms. This display can be used as a driver information center, similar to the TraqDash, with lap times, predicted lap, lap count and speed as well as RPM, and with the addition of three engine health sensors, function as a gauge and dashboard replacement, which is what I am doing in my car. If you buy the dash alone, it's $420, if you buy it WITH the EVO4, the combination is just $200 more than the EVO4 alone.

The next item is the camera. It is rugged and no car has YET rattled them apart! Amazing. It will write to the 720P HD video real-time. speed, lap count, RPM, lap time, best lap time, friction circle and show a track map, as well as custom logos that you may decide to put on the background. It is charged by the logger, starts above 30 mph and automatically turns itself off after five minutes, which can be lengthened by a simple change in the settings. The all-in one version is $999, the separate bullet cam/recorder version is $1099. I use the all in one. The lens protective covers are replaceable. You will need a AiM Data Hub to plug both the camera and the dash into the single expansion port on the EVO4 logger. Data hub is $60.

So, we're at $2458 for the logger, display and the camera. This is the bare minimum that I recommend.

Then, we can add driver performance sensor package, engine and drivetrain health sensor package and advanced chassis sensor package.

Optional sensor package one: Driver performance package. Covers all three driver inputs that should be logged and two that really should be sent to the camera to animate the red (brake) and green (gas) bar graphs showing EXACTLY what you're doing and where. Throttle position sensor is a string potentiometer hooked to the pedal or the throttle linkage at the carb, $252. Brake pressure sensors x 2 (front and rear, allows measurement and display of bias), $159/each and steering angle sensor, a string potentiometer I wrap around the steering column shaft. $252. Each of these sensors needs a patch cable to the logger, $39/each.

Total price for the option one driver performance sensor package is $978 with two brake pressure sensors, $780 for one (front) brake pressure sensor.

Optional sensor package two: Basic drivetrain health package. Covers all three engine vital inputs. Can be used to substitute and replace conventional analog gauges, with proven reliability. Also, temps and pressures can be tabulated at the end of each run for evaluation with a few mouse clicks. Oil pressure sending unit (solid sate, aircraft grade, no diaphragm like the cheesy VDO sender bulbs) is $159, the water temp and oil temp sensors are $45/each. Add patch cables for the three sensors at $39/each.

The addition of more than one optional sensor package requires a channel expansion module to allow more than five sensor inputs to be connected to the logger. The Channel Expansion module is $249.

Total price for option two basic drivetrain health package is $366. If it is added to option one driver performance sensor package, it is $615

Optional sensor package three: Adanced chassis measures package. The addition of four shock potentiometers to allow not only objective measure of shock adjustment changes, but with calculations automatically done in the software, you can monitor ride height, roll rate front and rear, pitch, front splitter height and basically recreate a dynamic model of exactly what the car is doing, especially valuable when it's working well and you want to duplicate that, or when you want to evaluate changes and correlate it to driver feel and feedback. Shock pots are $249/ea plus four patch cables and another channel expansion is required.

Total price of option three, advanced chassis measures package is $1401.

Cloud9...68

Thanks for the quick and detailed replies - there's obviously a ton of information and passion for this fascinating topic. I am convinced that progress is next to impossible without some sort of impartial means of comparing one's driving to that of a more accomplished driver. I was floundering until I let a pro drive my car with Harry's laptimer collecting his lap data. Within a short time, with nothing but the data Harry's provides, and a few "how do you do that?" questions, I was able to substantially reduce the daylight between his corner speeds/lap times and mine, even catching him on a few corners. But I'm at a new plateau, and I realize that I need data on my inputs vs. the pro's to understand what I have to do differently to continue to improve.

That said, coming from sinking a whopping $29.95 into Harry's Grand Prix version (and $150 for an XGPS160 GPS receiver), I have to say I'm suffering from a bit of sticker shock. Hopefully my upcoming bonus will be uncommonly generous!

Peter, I am familiar with Soulspeed, which is located at Harris Hill Raceway, but my "home track" is a place called Driveway Austin, which is actually a driving academy owned by Bill Dollahite, a retired professional racer, and his son, Scott, an active driver in the Continental World Challenge series (Scott is the one who set the baseline laps in my car). Are you familiar with it by chance? Driveway Austin is a very challenging, highly technical track where it's difficult to pull you eyes away for even a split second while driving. I have Harry's running on an ipad mini which I have mounted almost in my direct field of view, and I find it impossible to look at it while driving. I also have a console-mounted oil temperature gauge, and I barely ever get a chance to even glance at it! In that kind of scenario, do you still feel a dash display is indispensable? I'm afraid it could be distracting, and even potentially dangerous, on such a technical track.

How is the data from the AiM products reviewed? I assume it's downloaded to a PC or laptop, and then played back through their software, correct? So I would have to take a laptop with me to the track if I want to review my laps when I finish my session (not a problem, and sorry about such a basic question, but this stuff is all very new to me). Does the Evo4 draw a track map, or is the Smarty Cam required for that? Also, do you happen to know if Driveway Austin is in AiM's database?

As far as the driver input sensors, I understand I would have to buy a brake pressure and steering angle sensor, both of which AiM carry, but my car already has a throttle position sensor which outputs 0-5V depending on throttle deflection. Could I simply tap into my TPS and route the signal via the patch cable into the logger?

How difficult is the installation? I'm fairly handy with a wrench and with wiring - I did the very extensive mods to my car myself, including rebuilding the engine, and installed an upscale stereo in my daughter's BMW E46. Is the installation of an AiM data logger something that requires a pro for some reason?

Finally, the most obvious (and important) question - it looks like there is a steep learning curve with this stuff. How difficult is it to learn, and how long does it take to get proficient at it? What sort of technical support is available? What do you recommend as the best way to come up to "speed", as it were, as quickly as possible? I'm an engineer, but strangely, not much of a "gadget guy" - I'm one of maybe four people left on the planet who doesn't own a smart phone, for example - wait, that lady in Bangladesh just bought one, so it's down to just me and a couple of aborigines .

Oh, and what the heck is SCHD? I googled it, and pretty much all that came up was the ticker symbol for a diversified equity ETF .

Thanks again - looking forward to the continued education, and a steep plunge down the slippery slope.

Andy N

cetom

hello peter
if someone didnt mind spending a few more dollars what system would you recommend that integrates video and data ,and is relatively simple to use

ir_fuel

SCHD = Aim SmartyCam HD

ir_fuel

I think the simplest/cheapest for your use case would be to get an AiM logger (be it EVO4 or sth else), connect the TPS 0-5V to an analogue input, do the same with brake pressure and steering angle, connect an RPM sensor and connect the logger to an AiM Smartycam HD.

This will give you: lap time, GPS Speed, TPS, brake pressure, steering angle, GPS position on a track map, lateral and longitudinal acceleration, rpm, and all of this rendered in real-time over the Smartycam video.

That's already a lot of data to work with if you want to improve the driver and compare different laps/runs.

Since the data is already rendered on top of the video (in real time, and not through post processing, huge time saver!) you can use software to just compare the videos and you get the data comparison "for free" (unless you really want to see the squiggly lines together with the video when looking for the small details).

All the more technical questions I'll leave them to ProCoach or Matt to answer. I'm just the software guy here running an AiM setup in his car

Cloud9...68

ir_fuel,

lol, thanks for translating SCHD - I would have never figured that out, and now I see why google was no help! But I'm afraid this just highlights how near the bottom of the learning curve I am on the whole daunting yet invaluable topic of data acquisition. I'm sure there's a glossary somewhere that I need to dig out...

Your recommended set-up closely matches what ProCoach has put forth as a starting point, except you don't mention a dash display. Is this because of my concern over taking my eyes off the track, even for a split second? And are you saying that with this set-up, I would play back the rendered video and data after my session on the Smartycam itself? Isn't the screen awful small for that?

Now all I have to do is convince my kids a college education is really overrated

Slakker

If your driving factor is getting data from the car, then AIM is definitely the way to go. But if your true objective is driver improvement, I think you would get much quicker results with a VBox Lite (or HD2) with OLED.

ProCoach

I recommend a small dash display for several reasons. Completely programmable shift lights, which are easier to catch out of the corner of your eye than staring at a dial, programmable alarms (say a light that comes on when you're above 90% throttle or above 600 psi brake pressure or below 40 mph, or whatever target low speed you have for a particular corner) and best of all, predictive lap timing or +/- differential, against your best previous lap.

The two forks in using this equipment to go faster are a) the after-the-fact review of the video and data recorded and b) the in-car, real-time feedback that shows IMMEDIATELY, IN THE CAR AND DURING THE TIME YOU'RE ON TRACK, IF whatever you're doing on-track is better, worse or the same as before. Basically, a report card of your performance, during the exam!

The most valuable feature for most pro drivers at the highest level many years ago and still today, was this tool, a predictive lap time display. Now that this tech has trickled down to a tenth to a twentieth of what it used to cost, you can KNOW whether, how much and, more importantly, WHERE you are losing and gaining time using this display. So yes, for $200 more than the logger itself, you get access to all that information.

I see few people who are distracted enough to have a problem with a display. Some put one field up on the screen to keep it simple and take a look as they come out of the corner or on the straight. As they get used to it and look at it as another tool, they add more info.

That's the nice thing about driving and racing. As you get better, time slows down and you have more "headroom" or brain capacity to improve situational awareness and strategic thinking. So no, I don't think you'll have a problem.

As far as Slakker's post, I agree with him. I like, use and am one of the most successful Racelogic (Video VBOX) dealers in the country, as I am with AiM. I can make just as compelling a case for a two-camera VBOX Video HD2 with a few sensors, and it's similar money. The learning curve is far less steep than AiM, the automation and synced video and data are superb, and the video quality is outstanding on the HD2 (the one camera, no-information-rendered-on-the-video HD was discontinued several years ago, but they pop up used. There's one in Rennlist classifieds right now.) and I do think it's easier to find speed on the HD2 than the AiM for most casual users (and for some pros, like me), but the OP asked for driver inputs and perhaps some health info, not emphasizing video.

Now, the Video VBOX Lite standard definition system IS the least expensive option for an integrated video-data system, only $1800 for a two camera system with an OLED (organic light emitting diode, easy to see) display that shows how far ahead or behind you are compared to your best lap, but the video is only 480P and people have gotten spoiled with GoPros. Almost all the Racelogic VBOX Video equipment I am selling (and the 981 GT4/991 GT3RS crowd is LOVING them) is now the 1080p times TWO (picture in picture) HD2 2-camera system. Also, Racelogic is the ONLY system out right now that has a native Apple OS software package AND an iOS software package, so you can do analysis on an iPad or an Apple laptop without Windows at all. AiM and others are all pure Windows.

In the AiM, the video with the information on it is stored on an SD card. You pull the card, put it in a Windows or Apple laptop at the track and play it. The video has speed, g's lap times, lap count, shows car position, and depending on your sensors, can show you percentage throttle and force on brakes, as well as steering angle. So, you pull the card and play the movie. Easy. The data is downloaded separately, and once your laptop is set up, the information will be shown the same way every time you open a file, allowing you to compare laps, sessions and drivers, even different cars, if the other car is equipped with an AiM system.

We have the answers to the questions you have, Cloud! And this is the reason I sell five different kinds of systems that would do what you want. I don't think people moving up from HLT or Track Precision apps can make a wrong decision between AiM, Racelogic (VBOX), Race-Keeper or MoTeC, but every system does things differently and at a different price point.

I don't care which you buy, but it does need to be something that works for you. Otherwise, it turns into an expensive lap timer... IF you have a display!

ir_fuel

I just skipped the encyclopedia britannica that was written above this post, so forgive me if there are any duplicates , but no I didn't advice for or against a dash. A dash is better for 2 reasons:
- get temps and pressures and configure alerts (but, in your case, that would mean even more manual wiring of sensors. Dunno if you want to, but it's a good idea)

- REAL TIME PREDICTIVE LAP TIMES --> this one is huge if you want to improve quickly as a driver.

ProCoach

Yes, well... the Encyclopaedia Britannica and you said exactly the same thing!