ProCoach

cetom, you are an experienced user. You own two lines of the equipment I carry. You have hit the nail on the head! Using MoTeC, there is NOT a "relatively simple" and easy to use integrated video and data solution. Yes, you can pull in Race-Keeper video into MoTeC i2 Pro and manually sync with the data, IN the data window, but it's a time consuming PITA.

So what is a MoTeC user to do?

I've sold just last week a MoTeC V2 camera to an ADL2 display logger user that simply and easily syncs with the data in the i2 Standard or Pro analysis window. I did this because at the end of the day, the owner was comfortable pulling the video separate from the data, downloading it to a folder on his computer, downloading the data from the ADL2, then opening i2 and setting up the "camera view" to show the auto-synced video within the data window. Plus, it was $1000 cheaper than an AiM SCHD, ECU Bridge to the MoTeC for the AiM camera, antenna and wiring, along with the Pro Logging upgrade he would have needed to buy for his dash to play the video!

What I would do in my car (with a C185 display logger, pretty much anything MoTeC ADL2 or later) is use a VBOX Video HD2 connected to the CAN of the C185 to get throttle, RPM and brakes, but then all the relevant data AND video is recorded on ONE SD card and opens automatically in ONE window, within Circuit Tools 2. Send me a PM with what you have and I'll map it out, but for years, people have been plagued with separate data and video files, then marrying in the software. You really don't need to do that with the HD2.

Matt Romanowski

Just to clear up a couple of things in this thread.

As laid out in the email that Peter posted, shock pots to a channel expansion on an Evo4 is correct IMHO. The channel expansion with the Evo4 will only work at 100 Hz, not fast enough for suspension data or recommended in any text on the subject.

The GS Dash is available right now, though not with full functionality until the final firmware and software development is done. For anyone who is considering a new system, it is worth waiting a bit until the GS Dash is done. If you need something sooner, you should purchase an MXL2, MXS, or MXG. The new file structure, better alarm capabilities, and a few other things make it a more robust, future proof system.

I agree with Peter that the display of predictive lap times or +/- best lap, is a critical things to driver development. Even if you don't have the ability to look at it now, as you progress in you skills, you will be able to look at it and really value the information it has.

Also, the alarm portion of the dash is very important. Most people either A. Don't look at their gauge's at all or B. Exert too much mental capacity to it. With engine health sensors like oil pressure, oil temp, water temp, etc you are able to record what happened for later review. You can also set up the alarms so they give you a warning at the right time and then give you the right info.

With a dash like the MXL2, MXS, MXG, or the GS Dash with the Evo5, you can set tiered alarms to give you info. For instance, you can make an alarm for oil pressure below 12 psi when rpm is over 800. Then you can use the same light for oil pressure below 30 psi and rpm over 3,000 rpm. Finally, you can do something like less than 50 psi and rpm over 5,000.

You can also add things like alarms for when the coolant temp, trans temp, oil temp is below a threshold for warmup. Same for tiered alarms for increasing temps. You could do yellow for coolant temp above 210, red for above 255, etc.

With these sorts of alarms, you no longer have to pay attention to the actual numbers, but instead only notice that the alarm light isn't on. Then, with a bit of setup, you can have reports that will tell you what the min and max where, and with the click of another button, have a graph that shows it. You can also look to see trends over an entire session.

More later.

ProCoach

Andy, one at a time!

As a professional coach, it is my experienced opinion that while comparisons with a pro can show what the pro is doing better, you can use this equipment to measure what you're doing now and compare with either a lap from a pro OR target numbers and measures to see where and how you can do better. The data is certainly impartial, objective and non-judgmental. A pro is another variable, albeit one sometimes functioning at a high level. But yes...

With this equipment, you can compare, at the same point and between two or more laps, throttle, brakes, speed, g's and even GPS track position between the laps Scott is running and you are running. It's black and white, and with Scott helping illuminate and flesh out HOW he does what he does (as well as you beginning to be familiar with what LOOKS right on the data), you'll be able to rapidly improve. Even more so with the video.

SoulSpeed is in Austin here: http://www.soulspeed.com/home.php They've been installing AiM systems for sometime and I work closely with them for local support. You would first pull the SD card from the camera (if you were running one) and review your quick lap and Scott's lap, then you would download the data from the EVO4, which would give you information on yours and Scott's control inputs (how much, how quickly, how long, in relation to distance or position in the lap) read in AiM's free RaceStudio Analysis program, usable on any Windows laptop or PC.

I am familiar with Bill Dollahite from a time when he raced in IMSA in a Ferrari 333SP. Driveway Austin IS in the AiM database, not only the short kart course, but the 1.6-mile course, too. This means that automatically, the EVO4 will display lap times, draw a track map, split out laps for individual study AND comparison, and draw a map on the background of the SmartyCam to show you where you are. I'll attach a photo.

Yes, you could eliminate the need for a sensor and just take the 0-5 volt signal for throttle position via a patch cable connected to the logger.

Yes, you can install it and I'd be glad to help you through that. All of these systems come as a "blank slate," so you and I would talk about your specific application, what values (shift lights) you would want, what track you're going to go to and I would set this up for you to be as plug and play as possible before it's sent. Same with the camera. I think eliminating the requirement to learn how to configure the architecture of the system, configuration and setup with the system and installing the system cuts the workload down more than half. Once this stuff is set up, that part is done and requires no further (unlike MoTeC) attention. Once it's in, that part is done. Periodically clear the memory in the EVO4, make sure the SD card has space to record video and go! Connect to switched (off the ignition) power and ground and the operation is automatic.

On your last point, there is no question that effective analysis is a steep learning curve. There is substantial support from AiM itself, with an extensive and growing YouTube channel of instructional videos, periodic clinics and seminars around the country, slide shows and PDF documents I can send you that explain clearly what each button in the software does, but I would start gently and add speed slowly.

Once this is up and running, you will look at just a few measures over and over again to establish trends. The quickness of transitions between throttle and brake, the magnitude and timing of the brake application, where and how the brake release occurs in relation to the steering angle input. It's all there. I even include a great book with your system purchase, Chris Brown's "Making Sense of Squiggly Lines" to help get you started.

Unlike a decade ago, when I started focusing solely on this technology, there are now enough people using this technology (and this system has better penetration and use rates than any others in this market) that you can even make acquaintance with people in Austin who have and use this same system (I know, I sold them their systems!) for an active local users group. Yes, to begin, it takes time, but the more you use it, the easier it gets and bottom line, it does give you the tools you need to improve, safely and well.

Cloud9...68

Thanks again for all the great inputs. There's no question that data acquisition is an indispensable component in the journey to get the most out of one's ability as a track driver. But to be 100% honest, the cost of a system that gives me all the information I need, and that is relatively "future proof", is quite a bit higher than I had expected, and I have some unexpected work to do on my car, the cost of which isn't yet clear. Before I started this thread, I had the crazy notion that I might be able to download the data from Harry's, buy a few analog sensors, and run everything though some sort of inexpensive signal processor, possibly even a DIY project, that could overlay everything, for a few hundred bucks. This thread has set me straight that my concept was far removed from reality. As the sole provider of a family of four, with two kids in college, the funds available for my hobby are somewhat limited. So, I'm going to have to take a close look at my available funds, pray for a large bonus next month, and see what makes sense.

cetom

peter , thanks
but lets say i was going to start all over . take everything out and buy new units . i would like to have synched data and video , robust data , 3 or more cameras , and easy painless , reliable download capability . what would yo recommend

ProCoach

Matt, not sure why we are sparring. You are incorrect in your assumption on the limitation in the EVO4. Each analog input (up to five on the unit) of the EVO4 is capable of up to 1000Hz sampling rates.

I recommend people who decide to use shock potentiometers (a small fraction of club level racers and no HPDE users I know of, except you) to connect them to the CH1-CH4 inputs and sample at 200 Hz, putting health and driver measures on a channel expansion at between 20 Hz and 50 Hz, with temps and battery voltage at 2 Hz. So this solution becomes quite reasonable, simple, powerful and more than adequate.

The GS-Dash is not available for sale, has no firmware publicly released that allows the EVO4S or EVO5 to drive it and the truth is that neither you or I know when this will happen. I have customers who want to be on track weekend after next, and I'm going to offer them a tried, tested and proven solution that can help their driving NOW.

Besides, the G-Dash is where you and I first saw programmable and conditional alarms used in AiM products. Surprised you would ascribe these features to the new products without pointing out that the older (and still a current offering from AiM) EVO4/G-Dash combo is more than capable of doing what you outline.

IMO, the only "must have" features that any of the new equipment is likely capable of (and neither of us know when or HOW this will be implemented) is simple, automated, synced video and video comparison within the data analysis window. That's what people want.

if you want other features like CAN outs and integration with PDM modules, there are other, better and more proven choices right now, namely MoTeC.

As is typical, this thread has morphed far beyond "best data for pre-OBDII car" and, quite frankly, there are simple, powerful and reasonable solutions out now, from a variety of manufacturers that do just that.

ProCoach

cetom, I'll have to make a product features grid comparing manufacturers to show you, but I need to do that any way! <grin>

Need to know more. What is "robust data" in your eyes?

Driver inputs? Vehicle health? Vehicle dynamics monitoring? Do you need a display to substitute for the instrument cluster? Shift lights? What year and model car are we talking about? Something with CAN or OBDII accessible information that can use sensors already in the car or something older?

I have several synced video/data solutions that have painless, easy and reliable download capability, only one with more than two cameras, so I need more info.

Let's take this offline or start another thread and I am sure that together, we can find a solution!

ProCoach

Sounds good. Harry's is cheap and easy, and there are people out there doing DIY inexpensive projects. Van Svenson is a great example of that, but he had (as I think you would need) as a central component, a good logger, signal processor or "brain."

Periodically, you can find these components used, but an EVO4 by itself with a brake pressure sensor and 0-5V throttle position signal would be a great way to start out. Then add as you can afford it. $1437, for the logger new, one sensor and two patch cables, shipped. Includes software, configuration with tracks loaded, sensors set up, installation, operation and learning resource support.

Matt, Jerry and I (along with many readers here) are true believers, evangelists and geeks, nonpareil, so perhaps we've made it more daunting than it needs to be for your use.

You are correct when you say you're held back any the solution you use now. I know you would benefit a great deal from stepping up, when you can... Driver smarter, not harder.

Matt Romanowski

For the OP's, go the AiM Solo route. You won't have the sensor inputs, but you'll have data you can analyze later, compare drivers, and get the great predictive lap times while you are driving. Retail price is $400 and some of the AiM dealers (like me and Jerry) offer Rennlist discounts. If it's something you want to try, I offer a loaner that I'll ship to you to use for an event and it only costs you $25.

Matt Romanowski

Sorry if I misunderstood what you posted. You said to add the shock pots and a channel expansion. It wasn't clear that you intended the person to rewire the car when they added the shock sensors. That's not the approach I would have taken, but it would work in the end. Just a lot more work to run patch cables for the CE and sensors, plus lots of time.

As to the GS Dash, I held one back in August and you can call Tyler in Lake Elsinore if you don't believe me.

ProCoach

It does not matter what I believe. And I'm sure you "held one" (a pre-production mockup) in your hand six months ago.

But it is not, in fact, available or released for retail sale right now, because it is not able to be driven by existing hardware to AIM's and AiM Sport's satisfaction.

Sell what you have, not what you believe you will have...

My company offers commercial and shop discounts, as does Jerry. It's not a hobby shop.

To the OP, if you're going to waIt, I would not buy a Solo right now. There's a new, 2017 catalog listed AiM product that will offer more in a smaller package and at a more reasonable price than the current offerings. Ideal for pre-OBDII cars... one that Matt "has held" at PRI last December.

Peace, out.

Matt Romanowski

The MXm is not supposed to be released until the end of 2017. If someone needs something for right now and is on a budget, then the Solo still fits the need and works great.

Are you trying to imply something with the hobby shop comment?

twk63

Cloud9...68, PM sent

Cloud9...68

I have a general question about the basic capability of the available DA systems: The set-up I currently have runs Harry's Laptimer through an ipad mini that I have mounted just below eye level, on the left side of my console. I use an XGPS160 10 Hz GPS receiver, and a GoPro Hero4 that begins recording when I cross the start/finish line via a signal for HLT. While this set-up is very inexpensive (I got the GoPro as a Fathers Day gift from my family, and the ipad is a very basic 16 GB unit) and basic, it gives me the ability to trace my speed, and lateral and longitudinal acceleration at every instant on the track, and of course to view the synced video, and compare this information to that collected from a reference lap. Minus the analog sensors to provide feedback on how my inputs are impacting the car, how much more information would an AIM Solo, as Matt recommends, provide? And for that matter, how much does a more expensive and elaborate system like an Evo4 give? Maybe I'm too hung up on the concept of the analog sensors, but I feel that the big hole in my current data gathering is the lack of information about my inputs to the car. So, to me, the ability to add analog sensors, or some other method that provides or infers the information about my inputs, is the main thing that separates what I have now from what I desire to step up to. In other words, I'm trying to establish the value of the various options in terms of data analysis that can make me a better driver, outside of the ability to add analog sensors. I hope that makes sense. Thanks.

ProCoach

The forces acting on the car, resulting from your control inputs, are recorded quickly enough and displayed quickly and with enough resolution, so that an AiM Solo would be a BIG step up from what you have.

I spent a long time (and still do) using equipment that has/had no sensor inputs (other than sometimes, RPM) successfully to help thousands of drivers improve substantially, based on nothing more than those forces, speeds and GPS track mapping.

Besides the Solo, there is another great, small simple device (at nearly the same price) called the VBOX Sport. Most find the software a great deal less steep in the learning curve and easier to use than AIM's. It has the added benefit of integrating with your Harry's and making it MUCH more powerful and accurate, with it's 20 Hz GPS sampling.

Plus, the software and analysis is Mac and iOS compatible, so you could review your info on an iPad. AiM Solo needs a Windows laptop.

But you are correct. To really KNOW what Scott is doing, with the pedals and with the steering wheel, compared to you, you will need that info.