3.6L swapped 01 Boxster... What's it worth?
08-20-2016, 06:28 PM
#16
I would get a PPI done by a reputable Porsche shop. If done properly, a 3.6L swap is virtually indistinguishable from a stock Boxster engine and it would pass any emissions test. If the swap was done properly, and some of the "while you are theres" were done, like IMS bearing, water pump, etc., then the 3.6 is a very desirable upgrade, which would add somewhat to the value of the car. Just doing a 3.6L swap does not necessarily make your car emissions non-compliant. It definitely CAN be done 100% legally. Here in CO, basically as long as the engine is from the same or newer vehicle, has all the original emissions equipment as used on that engine and passes emission testing, the swap is completely legal. This assumes you the trouble of actually reporting the swap and have a referee station OK it. Most of the time, people do not even bother if the engine is similar to what was in the car and it passes the emissions tests.
Just to make it clear, a 3.6L swap can be done 100% legally and there is no reason why you would not do so. That said, depending on your state and what aftermarket parts were put on, especially in the exhaust system, you MAY have a non compliant car.
The key is that it needs to have been done properly. I have seen good and bad swaps. You need to find a shop that knows what to look for. The rest of the stuff is nice to have, but really won't add resale value.
For what it is worth, I have done my own and helped others with emissions compliant engine swaps. Don't let people scare you off because of the 3.6. Doing a 3.6 in a Boxster is about as easy of a swap as you can get and will result in an amazing car. I have driven a '00 S with a 3.6 and it was noticeably faster than my '03 S. Definitely a lot of fun and emissions legal.
Just to make it clear, a 3.6L swap can be done 100% legally and there is no reason why you would not do so. That said, depending on your state and what aftermarket parts were put on, especially in the exhaust system, you MAY have a non compliant car.
The key is that it needs to have been done properly. I have seen good and bad swaps. You need to find a shop that knows what to look for. The rest of the stuff is nice to have, but really won't add resale value.
For what it is worth, I have done my own and helped others with emissions compliant engine swaps. Don't let people scare you off because of the 3.6. Doing a 3.6 in a Boxster is about as easy of a swap as you can get and will result in an amazing car. I have driven a '00 S with a 3.6 and it was noticeably faster than my '03 S. Definitely a lot of fun and emissions legal.
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Oriscany421 (10-08-2019)
08-21-2016, 12:07 PM
#17
Drifting
" it would pass any emissions test"
No, not in California anymore ! Perhaps in Co now but how long before the California software is used elsewhere? According to the manufacturer, not long because they already supply the machines and software in many States.
In the old days it would pass the Visual Test . It would also potentially pass the Functional and Readiness Tests
Just read the post #8 above with all the details. It is a great pity.And yes I have an interest in a Star Certified Smog Check Station.The latest 2015 equipment is different from previous versions.How?
The APPLUS computer will detect an non-match between the VIN and the DME coding. The 3.6l will only get past this Tampering/Equipment Failure after a visit to the Referee proves the VIN and DME match. Trust me ,you do not want to have to visit a BAR Referee and fail. If you pass = o.k. But how?
In S.Cal this would be a Track car or a parts car after the first Smog Test Failure
If the coding of the ECU matches the VIN - you will pass. But the DME code for fueling for the 3.6 upgrade will have been modified? Alternatively, the installer of the upgrade may have used the parent ECU for the 3.6? Either way ,the new software in the AAPLUS will detect it.It is simple - it just matches actual vs. expected values in the ECU.
A PPI by a Porsche shop may be misleading.This is not about function ,nor MIL.That would be easy .It is about differences i the ECU vs. stock.
Better to get the PPI for Smog done by a Smog Tech who understands the latest procedures and where they are going in future. Read the "finger printing" statement by the software developer. It is sinister.
No, not in California anymore ! Perhaps in Co now but how long before the California software is used elsewhere? According to the manufacturer, not long because they already supply the machines and software in many States.
In the old days it would pass the Visual Test . It would also potentially pass the Functional and Readiness Tests
Just read the post #8 above with all the details. It is a great pity.And yes I have an interest in a Star Certified Smog Check Station.The latest 2015 equipment is different from previous versions.How?
The APPLUS computer will detect an non-match between the VIN and the DME coding. The 3.6l will only get past this Tampering/Equipment Failure after a visit to the Referee proves the VIN and DME match. Trust me ,you do not want to have to visit a BAR Referee and fail. If you pass = o.k. But how?
In S.Cal this would be a Track car or a parts car after the first Smog Test Failure
If the coding of the ECU matches the VIN - you will pass. But the DME code for fueling for the 3.6 upgrade will have been modified? Alternatively, the installer of the upgrade may have used the parent ECU for the 3.6? Either way ,the new software in the AAPLUS will detect it.It is simple - it just matches actual vs. expected values in the ECU.
A PPI by a Porsche shop may be misleading.This is not about function ,nor MIL.That would be easy .It is about differences i the ECU vs. stock.
Better to get the PPI for Smog done by a Smog Tech who understands the latest procedures and where they are going in future. Read the "finger printing" statement by the software developer. It is sinister.
Last edited by Schnell Gelb; 08-21-2016 at 01:17 PM.
08-23-2016, 01:02 AM
#19
Drifting
No problem. That is the whole point .
If the DME coding is stock and matches the VIN -you are golden.
In theory there is the "Visual" but on a Boxster that is highly unlikely to be an issue.
So if you can make the original DME run the engine satisfactorily and there is no MIL and no excessive emissions, and no other obvious equipment violations - your a winner !
Until the next upgrade to the APPLUS software ..................
If the DME coding is stock and matches the VIN -you are golden.
In theory there is the "Visual" but on a Boxster that is highly unlikely to be an issue.
So if you can make the original DME run the engine satisfactorily and there is no MIL and no excessive emissions, and no other obvious equipment violations - your a winner !
Until the next upgrade to the APPLUS software ..................
08-23-2016, 07:29 PM
#20
There is a lot of spreading of FUD here. While the theory behind the whole "vehicle fingerprint" sounds good and scary, the reality is that it is not all effective unless you have a very new vehicle.
For example, I did some testing of a few of the cars that I own using the same legislated OBDII commands that the software in question would use. They don't have any "secret sauce" here as there is only so much information that they have to work with.
For vehicle identification on my '03 Boxster S with Bosch ME 7.8 engine controls, the ECU reported the VIN, part number of the ECU and software version. Standard stuff. I don't have an earlier Porsche to work with here, so this one would be "worst case" for a 986.
I did the same test on my '00 Audi A6 with Bosch ME 7 engine controls. It did NOT report the VIN, nor ECU part number, just the software revision level and another calibration ID. I then installed a test ECU that I have with modified performance code. It reported the same data. Hmmm, so much for finding an incriminating fingerprint there...
Last, I did the same test on my daughter's '09 VW Tiguan with Bosch ME9 engine controls. That ECU reported the VIN, ECU and TCU part numbers, software revision levels, plus lots more information like O2 compensation values, etc. THIS could be useful to make a "fingerprint".
I can see that on a newer vehicle with a very advanced control system which reports much more vehicle information than the systems used on these old Porsche does, you might be able to generate a reasonable "fingerprint", it just doesn't have enough to work with on these old Porsches. I also know for a fact that often ECU part numbers, software versions, etc., can change for the same vehicle if an ECU has been replaced for repair, recall, etc. There is NO WAY that emissions tool manufacturer will know what part numbers of what ECUs are valid for a particular vehicle make model and year, not to mention software revisions and checksums. Just my '00 Audi A6 has a range of part numbers and software revisions possible. From year to year this information changes greatly.
The best they can do is to record a particular vehicles information when it first is scanned by the system, and compare it on subsequent scans. When you think about it, saying you can fingerprint a car and detect changes sounds great if you are selling it to CARB, which is their motivation. It sounds great, and guys like fast yellow might think it is the end of vehicle modification, etc., but it is not.
My background? I have been in the industrial and automotive electronics industry for over 25 years, had some of the equipment that I designed line fit on Fords, worked with factory engineers from GM, Chrysler, BMW, VW and Volvo and built a VAG group specific automotive diagnostic system that does factory level diagnostics.
Bottom line, yes, a 3.6 996 engine swap can be made to work in a Boxster even in California and I will stand behind that.
For example, I did some testing of a few of the cars that I own using the same legislated OBDII commands that the software in question would use. They don't have any "secret sauce" here as there is only so much information that they have to work with.
For vehicle identification on my '03 Boxster S with Bosch ME 7.8 engine controls, the ECU reported the VIN, part number of the ECU and software version. Standard stuff. I don't have an earlier Porsche to work with here, so this one would be "worst case" for a 986.
I did the same test on my '00 Audi A6 with Bosch ME 7 engine controls. It did NOT report the VIN, nor ECU part number, just the software revision level and another calibration ID. I then installed a test ECU that I have with modified performance code. It reported the same data. Hmmm, so much for finding an incriminating fingerprint there...
Last, I did the same test on my daughter's '09 VW Tiguan with Bosch ME9 engine controls. That ECU reported the VIN, ECU and TCU part numbers, software revision levels, plus lots more information like O2 compensation values, etc. THIS could be useful to make a "fingerprint".
I can see that on a newer vehicle with a very advanced control system which reports much more vehicle information than the systems used on these old Porsche does, you might be able to generate a reasonable "fingerprint", it just doesn't have enough to work with on these old Porsches. I also know for a fact that often ECU part numbers, software versions, etc., can change for the same vehicle if an ECU has been replaced for repair, recall, etc. There is NO WAY that emissions tool manufacturer will know what part numbers of what ECUs are valid for a particular vehicle make model and year, not to mention software revisions and checksums. Just my '00 Audi A6 has a range of part numbers and software revisions possible. From year to year this information changes greatly.
The best they can do is to record a particular vehicles information when it first is scanned by the system, and compare it on subsequent scans. When you think about it, saying you can fingerprint a car and detect changes sounds great if you are selling it to CARB, which is their motivation. It sounds great, and guys like fast yellow might think it is the end of vehicle modification, etc., but it is not.
My background? I have been in the industrial and automotive electronics industry for over 25 years, had some of the equipment that I designed line fit on Fords, worked with factory engineers from GM, Chrysler, BMW, VW and Volvo and built a VAG group specific automotive diagnostic system that does factory level diagnostics.
Bottom line, yes, a 3.6 996 engine swap can be made to work in a Boxster even in California and I will stand behind that.
Last edited by Qmulus; 08-23-2016 at 08:11 PM.
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Al Allen (11-25-2021)
08-23-2016, 07:52 PM
#21
The above post serves more to debunk what actually can be discovered with this "vehicle fingerprint" system, and what it can and cannot do.
The proper and legal process is to report the engine swap to CARB and go to a referee station to have the full conversion inspected and tested. Once that is done satisfactorily, the vehicle would be recorded as a Boxster with 3.6L engine along with the matching ECU part number etc. As long as you are using a stock 996 engine along with all stock emissions control systems, there is no difference whether it is in a 911 or a Boxster. The engine will not pollute more being in a Boxster... The same would be done with Boxsters with '05 Corvette engines,etc.
I have seen vehicles go through CARB inspections both reporting and not reporting engine swaps.
The proper and legal process is to report the engine swap to CARB and go to a referee station to have the full conversion inspected and tested. Once that is done satisfactorily, the vehicle would be recorded as a Boxster with 3.6L engine along with the matching ECU part number etc. As long as you are using a stock 996 engine along with all stock emissions control systems, there is no difference whether it is in a 911 or a Boxster. The engine will not pollute more being in a Boxster... The same would be done with Boxsters with '05 Corvette engines,etc.
I have seen vehicles go through CARB inspections both reporting and not reporting engine swaps.
08-23-2016, 09:19 PM
#22
Drifting
I hope you are correct. It will be interesting to hear from anyone who does succeed in getting a modified 3.6 Boxster through Ca Smog/BAR referee . If they do, great !
Thanks for the background it helps a prospective buyer make an informed decision rather than guessing/hoping. The independent experts on this subject are probably Softronic ?
http://www.softronicsoftware.com/986...rmance-tuning/
Thanks for the background it helps a prospective buyer make an informed decision rather than guessing/hoping. The independent experts on this subject are probably Softronic ?
http://www.softronicsoftware.com/986...rmance-tuning/
Last edited by Schnell Gelb; 08-25-2016 at 12:21 AM.
08-24-2016, 03:59 AM
#23
Well, ..very interesting.
Thanks.
Imo, it shows that the solutions (to get more power) proposed by Jake Raby are clever ones, i.e.: instead of playing with the difficulties of an engine swap that could require a different ECU, keeping the current core and increasing displacement using "nickies", ..should be a much better "game" to play.
Or, much better to "remap" the actual ECU than having to change it.
Thanks.
Imo, it shows that the solutions (to get more power) proposed by Jake Raby are clever ones, i.e.: instead of playing with the difficulties of an engine swap that could require a different ECU, keeping the current core and increasing displacement using "nickies", ..should be a much better "game" to play.
Or, much better to "remap" the actual ECU than having to change it.
08-24-2016, 06:13 PM
#24
There really is no reason to swap the ECU in a 996 engine swap. They are the same thing with different software assuming you are staying with the same generation of engine controls. The 996 engine is basically the same as a 986 engine. It is basically just "bored and stroked".
The later 996 3 chain engines with VarioCam Plus use slightly different heads than the 3 chain Boxsters but if you put that engine in a '03 - '04 Boxster you just add four wires (two power, two solenoid control) to the Boxster engine harness and reprogram the DME as a 996 and it will work. There are a couple of local cars that I know with this setup, and if I ever have engine issues, that is likely the way I would go.
That is not to say the swap is drop it out of a 911 and bolt it into a Boxster type of job, as there are lots of odds and ends, but it can all be done with mixing and matching of factory parts.
The later 996 3 chain engines with VarioCam Plus use slightly different heads than the 3 chain Boxsters but if you put that engine in a '03 - '04 Boxster you just add four wires (two power, two solenoid control) to the Boxster engine harness and reprogram the DME as a 996 and it will work. There are a couple of local cars that I know with this setup, and if I ever have engine issues, that is likely the way I would go.
That is not to say the swap is drop it out of a 911 and bolt it into a Boxster type of job, as there are lots of odds and ends, but it can all be done with mixing and matching of factory parts.
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Oriscany421 (10-08-2019)
08-25-2016, 01:05 PM
#25
Drifting
Q ,I agree with you - but sadly CARB does not.
If the new style Smog machine detects a modification to the ECU code ( for example a flash required to correct fueling differences between the 3.6 donor and 3.2 recipient) you will get an "Equipment Failure".
If it does not detect any differences - you are O.K. -for now. The CARB does not negotiate or reason.They are totally black/white unfortunately.
""remap" the actual ECU " - ask Softronic if it will always pass Calif Smog.
If the new style Smog machine detects a modification to the ECU code ( for example a flash required to correct fueling differences between the 3.6 donor and 3.2 recipient) you will get an "Equipment Failure".
If it does not detect any differences - you are O.K. -for now. The CARB does not negotiate or reason.They are totally black/white unfortunately.
""remap" the actual ECU " - ask Softronic if it will always pass Calif Smog.
08-25-2016, 08:46 PM
#26
Well, may be the trick is to have two ECU, the original, that you can plug for road use, and a modified one, for ..track use !
I change rim (and tires) for track use, ..this is much more work than "unplug/plug" if you mount the second on the top of the original one !
I change rim (and tires) for track use, ..this is much more work than "unplug/plug" if you mount the second on the top of the original one !
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Al Allen (11-25-2021)
10-08-2019, 12:23 PM
#27
Maybe Not.
" it would pass any emissions test"
No, not in California anymore ! Perhaps in Co now but how long before the California software is used elsewhere? According to the manufacturer, not long because they already supply the machines and software in many States.
In the old days it would pass the Visual Test . It would also potentially pass the Functional and Readiness Tests
Just read the post #8 above with all the details. It is a great pity.And yes I have an interest in a Star Certified Smog Check Station.The latest 2015 equipment is different from previous versions.How?
The APPLUS computer will detect an non-match between the VIN and the DME coding. The 3.6l will only get past this Tampering/Equipment Failure after a visit to the Referee proves the VIN and DME match. Trust me ,you do not want to have to visit a BAR Referee and fail. If you pass = o.k. But how?
In S.Cal this would be a Track car or a parts car after the first Smog Test Failure
If the coding of the ECU matches the VIN - you will pass. But the DME code for fueling for the 3.6 upgrade will have been modified? Alternatively, the installer of the upgrade may have used the parent ECU for the 3.6? Either way ,the new software in the AAPLUS will detect it.It is simple - it just matches actual vs. expected values in the ECU.
A PPI by a Porsche shop may be misleading.This is not about function ,nor MIL.That would be easy .It is about differences i the ECU vs. stock.
Better to get the PPI for Smog done by a Smog Tech who understands the latest procedures and where they are going in future. Read the "finger printing" statement by the software developer. It is sinister.
No, not in California anymore ! Perhaps in Co now but how long before the California software is used elsewhere? According to the manufacturer, not long because they already supply the machines and software in many States.
In the old days it would pass the Visual Test . It would also potentially pass the Functional and Readiness Tests
Just read the post #8 above with all the details. It is a great pity.And yes I have an interest in a Star Certified Smog Check Station.The latest 2015 equipment is different from previous versions.How?
The APPLUS computer will detect an non-match between the VIN and the DME coding. The 3.6l will only get past this Tampering/Equipment Failure after a visit to the Referee proves the VIN and DME match. Trust me ,you do not want to have to visit a BAR Referee and fail. If you pass = o.k. But how?
In S.Cal this would be a Track car or a parts car after the first Smog Test Failure
If the coding of the ECU matches the VIN - you will pass. But the DME code for fueling for the 3.6 upgrade will have been modified? Alternatively, the installer of the upgrade may have used the parent ECU for the 3.6? Either way ,the new software in the AAPLUS will detect it.It is simple - it just matches actual vs. expected values in the ECU.
A PPI by a Porsche shop may be misleading.This is not about function ,nor MIL.That would be easy .It is about differences i the ECU vs. stock.
Better to get the PPI for Smog done by a Smog Tech who understands the latest procedures and where they are going in future. Read the "finger printing" statement by the software developer. It is sinister.
The following users liked this post:
Al Allen (11-25-2021)
10-08-2019, 12:55 PM
#30
I would get a PPI done by a reputable Porsche shop. If done properly, a 3.6L swap is virtually indistinguishable from a stock Boxster engine and it would pass any emissions test. If the swap was done properly, and some of the "while you are theres" were done, like IMS bearing, water pump, etc., then the 3.6 is a very desirable upgrade, which would add somewhat to the value of the car. Just doing a 3.6L swap does not necessarily make your car emissions non-compliant. It definitely CAN be done 100% legally. Here in CO, basically as long as the engine is from the same or newer vehicle, has all the original emissions equipment as used on that engine and passes emission testing, the swap is completely legal. This assumes you the trouble of actually reporting the swap and have a referee station OK it. Most of the time, people do not even bother if the engine is similar to what was in the car and it passes the emissions tests.
Just to make it clear, a 3.6L swap can be done 100% legally and there is no reason why you would not do so. That said, depending on your state and what aftermarket parts were put on, especially in the exhaust system, you MAY have a non compliant car.
The key is that it needs to have been done properly. I have seen good and bad swaps. You need to find a shop that knows what to look for. The rest of the stuff is nice to have, but really won't add resale value.
For what it is worth, I have done my own and helped others with emissions compliant engine swaps. Don't let people scare you off because of the 3.6. Doing a 3.6 in a Boxster is about as easy of a swap as you can get and will result in an amazing car. I have driven a '00 S with a 3.6 and it was noticeably faster than my '03 S. Definitely a lot of fun and emissions legal.
Just to make it clear, a 3.6L swap can be done 100% legally and there is no reason why you would not do so. That said, depending on your state and what aftermarket parts were put on, especially in the exhaust system, you MAY have a non compliant car.
The key is that it needs to have been done properly. I have seen good and bad swaps. You need to find a shop that knows what to look for. The rest of the stuff is nice to have, but really won't add resale value.
For what it is worth, I have done my own and helped others with emissions compliant engine swaps. Don't let people scare you off because of the 3.6. Doing a 3.6 in a Boxster is about as easy of a swap as you can get and will result in an amazing car. I have driven a '00 S with a 3.6 and it was noticeably faster than my '03 S. Definitely a lot of fun and emissions legal.